[mojave_rose8]

The shame associated with things you have done as a result of the illness, and the degree to which they have hurt and alienated family and friends?

Honestly, for me, the latter is worse than the former. It's hard to live with myself because I feel that as a result of the illness, I have done **many** impulsive / stupid things -- probably more than the *average* person.

(For example, showing up to a professor's home once during a mixed state, completely intoxicated -- I ended up driving myself to the ER after I had sobered up a bit.)

Not good ... I mean, that's pretty awful.

[sunblossom]

Honestly the worst thing for me is how my mind regurgitates events and magnifies the shame I feel for things I have done or said. I hold on to the shame instead of letting things go. Shame is my punishment for being imperfect and in my head I deserve to be punished and will let it beat on me for hours at a time. It gets stuck spinning its reminders of shameful moments locked in my head. Some days I wonder if I have any memories that don't involve me feeling shamed. I have a very hard time finding any of those memories in the mix. I have let shame cloud them over.

There are things I have done that even the average person would have a hard time shaking off or forgiving oneself for but those are not nearly as numerous as my thinking would have me believe. The shame that is most deadly is the shame that the average person would have laughed off or brushed off as embarrassing perhaps but not shameful to the point of being sickened by it.

As always it comes down to the question of balance. My brain requires daily, sometimes hourly attention to balance its thinking. The average brain can balance itself.

I can shame myself very quickly. Most every memory in my head centres around feeling of shame. I can find a shame-worthy moments in every word I speak and every action I take. I am always looking back and analyzing what I did wrong and what I should have done instead. I am always stopping myself from engaging simply to prevent the possibility of another shameful moment.

There are things I have done that I should feel some shame about because people were hurt by my actions. There have been things I have had to go back and fix and to humbly ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness I struggle to give to myself.

There are far more things I feel shame for that don't deserve a second thought because they were just not that big a deal. My mind seem to not be able to distinguish the difference however and I will punish myself with shame for the most minor of offenses.

Shame is a terrible thing. My inability till now to process feelings of shame has me paralyzed in my isolation. I seldom associate with anyone other than my son who lives with me. It is because of shame that I keep myself away from the world. Any engagement becomes fuel to feed the shame machine in my head. The less I engage the fewer chances I can do anything or say anything I will regret or feel shame about later. If I have no conversations to replay then I have no conversations to feel ashamed about.

The shame thing doesn't resonate with me too well. I was given guilt trips growing up and I know they left scars, but I do have self-respect and try to avoid hurting others--always have been like that, so maybe that's why I haven't much shame attached to this illness.

I consider it an illness just like chicken pox or stomach disorder or kidney disorder.
It's there; it's medicated; I can speak about the illness and how to help improve the feeling tone. The past is the past; we just can't afford to live in it.

I'm also a little troubled by what people refer to as the "stigma". Almost all of the well-educated people with whom I've talked have no real stigma attached to bipolar illness. My psychiatrist says it largely exists in the business world where business owners are required to foot the bill for medical insurance for bipolar patients.

Among the well-educated, the stigma just doesn't exist, strongly. Oh, it's there with the uneducated, the insecure ones who are trying to hide their own dilemma, and those who are just mean, but who among us would list them as valuable contributors to our well-being?

I think in many ways that we've got it together pretty well and I know for a fact that as we get older the illness mellows into a far more gentle disposition--that is, if we were careful about taking proper medications during the most active part of the inflammation--which is what bipolar illness is.

It's an inflammation of a portion of the brain which fires too rapidly. The biggest concern I have about it is that I hope we don't have a shortened life span because of the too-rapid firing during youth. Doctors don't know why it happens yet, but they're working on the (several, perhaps) genes involved.

They do know that certain things help calm the situation--even aspirin in mild cases of bipolar illness has been recommended by my doctor.

Shame? Nope. Concern? Yep. Hope? Yep.

Concern for those who hold a stigma in regard to the illness? Mild concern
because I know they're using it in an effort to cover their own feelings of
inferiority or guilt.

For those who are free of a need for stigma, I feel great respect, because they know that the human being is valuable just as a human being with
no attachments to differences; that takes a mature person.

Genetic

[Secretum]

Genetic, I am a premed student. If I tell the admissions committees at the med schools that I am going to apply to that I am bipolar, I will be immediately thrown in the reject pile. So I think that stigma is sadly alive and well among the well-educated.

[mommyof2girls]

Def the illness..... I am not ashamed of my illness at all and I hope that no one else feels that way.....We did not ask for what we have, and therefore we should NEVER be ashamed of it....

[Confusedinomicon]

Genetic, I also have to disagree with you. I think it's only the people who have been exposed and learn about mental health that are the ones who aren't bogged down by stigma. There are plenty of people who are well educated and financially secure who look down on individuals who are on some kind of government care plan. Maybe the educated will hold their tongue, but it doesn't mean they aren't passing judgement.

I would say illness is worse for me too. I tell people I have BP all the time. If they have a problem with it, I won't be their friend. It's easy as that for me.

[BipolaRNurse]

Shame has always been a part of my life as a result of the way I was brought up. I mean, everything was my fault---the fact that it was 1958 and abortion wasn't legal then, the fact that I was loud and boisterous and not the model child my sister was, the fact that I was human and did the stupid things kids do.

Now, logically, I KNOW it's not my "fault" that I'm bipolar. It's not even my fault that my oldest son is bipolar, too. But I hate being weak and needing help---it's why I've long resisted going into psychiatric care---and even though my parents are long gone, I think sometimes how embarrassed they would have been by a daughter with mental illness. After all, 'decent' families don't have those problems.......

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Secretum

Genetic, I am a premed student. If I tell the admissions committees at the med schools that I am going to apply to that I am bipolar, I will be immediately thrown in the reject pile. So I think that stigma is sadly alive and well among the well-educated.

Yes, and I was thrown out of one of the most educated places in this country for it. The educated world is only marginally less stigmatizing of this illness; the rest is wistful thinking.

[mojave_rose8]

Originally Posted by BipolaRNurse

Shame has always been a part of my life as a result of the way I was brought up. I mean, everything was my fault---the fact that it was 1958 and abortion wasn't legal then, the fact that I was loud and boisterous and not the model child my sister was, the fact that I was human and did the stupid things kids do.

Now, logically, I KNOW it's not my "fault" that I'm bipolar. It's not even my fault that my oldest son is bipolar, too. But I hate being weak and needing help---it's why I've long resisted going into psychiatric care---and even though my parents are long gone, I think sometimes how embarrassed they would have been by a daughter with mental illness. After all, 'decent' families don't have those problems.......

I can relate to the family thing. I have spent many, many hours feeling guilty -- in the sense, "My parents did not deserve a daughter like me." I have made their lives hell at times.

Atr this point, I feel the only way I can forgive myself is doing something useful with my life. I want them to be proud of me and see me as a successful, functioning adult.

Originally Posted by Secretum

Genetic, I am a premed student. If I tell the admissions committees at the med schools that I am going to apply to that I am bipolar, I will be immediately thrown in the reject pile. So I think that stigma is sadly alive and well among the well-educated.

_______________________________________________________

At the same time, Secretum, people like Dr. Kay Jamison Redfield who is bipolar and has written about this disease and teaches at a university about bipolar illness has been told by her associates "just be sure to take your medications".

So there are different approaches to this depending on where you live,
what university you are trying to attend and how the board of directors feel about bipolar illness. Frankly, if I were a pre-med student and learned that bipolar patients would be dropped, I'd choose another university for my training (for example, the one in which Dr. Jamison teaches).

Since the disease is a mood disorder and not an intellectual disorder, I
suspect that many universities and colleges would be happy to have a bright bipolar patient who is properly medicated.
Thanks for your response. It gives the opportunity to present both views.

My view is that it is not "alive and well" but that it is prevalent where there is much ignorance or intolerance. A medical school is not necessarily without its own flaws in human compassion.

Like some of the others who express their view, if a person rejects me because of my illness, I do not need that friendship. I've never lived a life
of wistful thinking; I've worked hard to achieve what I've been able to accomplish with or without some types of friendship.

Why we want to take so much blame is beyond me. I agree with the member who wrote that we are not responsible for the illness we were born with; we are responsible to make sure that it is properly medicated and that we do no harm to others. I suspect that many have lived that life and that, if the truth were known, we may have caused less pain in life for others than many who are considered "normal"--which is simply a term. (Nobody can really define normality adequately, since everyone is flawed in some form or another.)

I really refuse to live my life based on somebody else's opinion of who I am.
And I firmly think that we should not judge ourselves or others. We need to live our lives based on our deepest principles, in my view. With that in mind, I think we make a pretty good job of managing things well.

I'd call it independence.

Genetic

[Trippin2.0]

My shame gland is inactive. Stigma? Pffft, except for employers, I don't give a flying f**k what people think. Honestly now, why would I let other people affect me like that, what purpose would it serve? I will however with hold my dx for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons ONLY. 1) It doesn't affect you. 2) A new employer may prejudge my ability to do my job. Would probly tell them later on, tho admittedly I've never done it yet as my dx was common knowledge at my previous job, as my colleagues/friends encouraged me to seek help prior to dx. People I hurt, piss off or offend? They know me, so they know when I'm being 'more than'. Even if they only realize in hindsight. I apologize for every 'infraction'. I don't apologize to random bear-pokers tho. THAT being said... Usually its just me being a super*****, sometimes with a sprinkle of violence. So I can't relate to actually wrecking someone's life or anything heavy like that. I'm way too much of a control freak anyway, thats why I isolate during episodes, hope my anti-wrecking strategy continues to work thru out my journey. Oh yes, I vote 'illness'

[~Christina]

I vote illness ..

I could list all the reason for saying "illness" But, I'm bipolar and I dont have to. HA

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Secretum

Genetic, I am a premed student. If I tell the admissions committees at the med schools that I am going to apply to that I am bipolar, I will be immediately thrown in the reject pile. So I think that stigma is sadly alive and well among the well-educated.

There is a former university professor on this forum who was thrown out of the university and into SSDI after the university failed to provide some very reasonable accommodation such as, if I recall correctly, later class start. It is still a wild world, including in the academe.

[Bipolar1Disorder]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

My shame gland is inactive. Stigma? Pffft, except for employers, I don't give a flying f**k what people think. Honestly now, why would I let other people affect me like that, what purpose would it serve? I will however with hold my dx for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons ONLY. 1) It doesn't affect you. 2) A new employer may prejudge my ability to do my job. Would probly tell them later on, tho admittedly I've never done it yet as my dx was common knowledge at my previous job, as my colleagues/friends encouraged me to seek help prior to dx. People I hurt, piss off or offend? They know me, so they know when I'm being 'more than'. Even if they only realize in hindsight. I apologize for every 'infraction'. I don't apologize to random bear-pokers tho. THAT being said... Usually its just me being a super*****, sometimes with a sprinkle of violence. So I can't relate to actually wrecking someone's life or anything heavy like that. I'm way too much of a control freak anyway, thats why I isolate during episodes, hope my anti-wrecking strategy continues to work thru out my journey. Oh yes, I vote 'illness'

I'm trippin with you girl and saying what shame. I been on SSI since 1997 cause I am insane. There is just no way to hide the stigma that I am. I'll tell you to your face that I'm bipolar 1 and you better watch out, you better not shout, you better not cry, I'm telling you why, cause I'm a psych weirdo already in your town.

[Bipolar1Disorder]

Originally Posted by Bipolar1Disorder

I'm trippin with you girl and saying what shame. I been on SSI since 1997 cause I am insane. There is just no way to hide the stigma that I am. I'll tell you to your face that I'm bipolar 1 and you better watch out, you better not shout, you better not cry, I'm telling you why, cause I'm a psych weirdo already in your town.

I'm making a list I'm checking it twice, to see if you been naughty or nice. Then I may have to get out my AX and cut me a slice of you ......Do you think I am ashamed of my insanity? Cause if you do then you better think twice cause I prefer to flaunt it's tan lines.

[BlueInanna]

No shame. But this "illness/disorder/condition" sucks ***.

[Trippin2.0]

Originally Posted by Bipolar1Disorder

I'm making a list I'm checking it twice, to see if you been naughty or nice. Then I may have to get out my AX and cut me a slice of you ......Do you think I am ashamed of my insanity? Cause if you do then you better think twice cause I prefer to flaunt it's tan lines.

think you just gave me my new theme song!

[BuggsBunny]

No shame, but I don't reveal my dx to laymen, except under special circumstances. I find that it is none of anyone's business, as long as i am stable and on my meds. I also find that I live in a generally ignorant area of mostly older people, and the stigma still stays with them. So it's more stigma than anything else.

[lonegael]

I generally say, I have a lot of ADHD symptoms and shamelessness is one of them. What I am ashamed of is generally not so much illness related, it's what I should know better than what to do IN SPITE of my illness.

My favorite line with kids who say "You can't blame me, I have ADHD/Aspbergers, etc", "Kid, I'm a card carrying member of the crazy club, and I can tell you that none of us gets away with that.It's in the charter. Tell it to the hand!"

[lonegael]

On the other hand, here in Sweden, they are VERY unenlightened. I only tell my emploers AFTER they have a good feel for what I can do, and when it is relevent. Then, I have little trouble. They know who I am and what I am like.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by lonegael

On the other hand, here in Sweden, they are VERY unenlightened. I only tell my emploers AFTER they have a good feel for what I can do, and when it is relevent. Then, I have little trouble. They know who I am and what I am like.

Wow, who would have thought! I have an image of Sweden as a very enlightened country. What with unprecedental internet penetration (or is it Denmark?) and breastfeeding rates (or is it Norway?). Sorry to hear how things are.

[thickntired]

(For example, showing up to a professor's home once during a mixed state, completely intoxicated -- I ended up driving myself to the ER after I had sobered up a bit.)

Not good ... I mean, that's pretty awful.[/quote]

I totally blacked out at a company party and tried to remove the cork from a bottle of wine with my teeth. So, yeah I get where you're coming from! Can you say mortified?! But hey - ppl will never call us boring

Peace & Hugs,

TnT

[thickntired]

Originally Posted by Secretum

Genetic, I am a premed student. If I tell the admissions committees at the med schools that I am going to apply to that I am bipolar, I will be immediately thrown in the reject pile. So I think that stigma is sadly alive and well among the well-educated.

I believe that is discrimination and against the law. I'm not sure bc when I was a professional I didn't tell anyone that I was on meds or bipolar.

[regretful]

No school or employer would cite the disorder as the reason for disqualification, at least not explicitly...

As for me, the illness is the worst. I have told many about my depression because I know that the illness does not define me. I'm not ashamed of it. I'll get better. I am hopeful that all of you will too.

Originally Posted by thickntired

I believe that is discrimination and against the law. I'm not sure bc when I was a professional I didn't tell anyone that I was on meds or bipolar.

...mental health or lack thereof or whatever....?

this has nothing to do with how us that suffer are programmed to respect others.

I've been sick forever done lotsa real crappy things and way out of synch to whats inside my self my morals these things are unaffected by my mental illness....they stay the same and I would not as all of us here, have survived without moral default settings...

yeah I screwed up lots and I regret and suffered the shame my true self decided was necessary to suffer just enough to endure to learn and survive...

any more shame on top of that has been life threatening I'm sure we have all felt that and it's the brutal ignorance of those around us that inflict it!

as always I don't blame nobody else directly I'm the one that breathes in the blood bleeding lies.

...so the worst thing for me is blaming myself when I just can't handle things and I did nuthin' wrong