When I speak of willpower, I am not dismissing your suffering...

This! I've found I feel so much better having two glasses of orange juice a day, taking in meat a couple of days a week, eating plenty of fruit and vegetables etc than just taking some Centrum every day. I didn't seem to get nearly as much of a positive effect as I did just making sure I experimented with some healthy, vitamin rich food!

As long as I have a healthy intake of vitamins I feel a lot better than I would eating randomly and taking a vitamin-packed pill every day!

On another note, when I did DBT for a while (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy), I noticed the elements of Buddhism it incorporated and in fact, my therapist practiced Buddhism and I could only describe her as "Spitirual". It was easy to see that she felt at peace in herself and at one with the world. If I ever said I'd done badly, or I'm bad at something, she'd say "Now Michael stop there, that's a judgement. What I want to do in our DBT sessions is teach you to be non-judgmental - instead of saying you're bad at something, you should learn to say that you could have done better."

I found DBT to be an exciting concept. I only lost interest because of the time it consumed, and the group therapy made me feel very awkward. But the point is, when trying to overcome some of the challenges that arise from Bipolar Disorder, it's important to explore. And Buddhism is full of teachings that, in my view, can benefit a bipolar patient. So it's not difficult to see why it's incorporated into DBT!

RB

I should clarify, by a "normal life" I mean free of depressive episodes and manic episodes which for some cause problems such as suicidal thoughts, self-harming behaviors, loss of motivation, irritability, sexual promiscuity etc.

Not completely either, just reducing the severity of such symptoms.

Though I do understand and emphasize with your views on leading a typical life, I do want to live a typical life. I want to settle down, get a 30 hour a week job, have a place of my own, etc. I do know some other people that are bipolar and dream of emotional stability and some even a typical; boring life.

Emotional stability (to some extent rather than a roller-coaster of emotions) is what I mean by normal life. Rather than the life I'm living at the moment, which is just full of nothing. And empty. I'm getting there, though and am seeing an improvement: using not willpower alone but also taking medication (for now, at least) and maintaining good relationships with my relatives and friends.

RB.

I think I can fully recover, I think I am doing it

However I still have depth of feeling, I don't need to dip to the lowest depths and crazy highs to have depth of feeling. I havent lost my creativity, or my ability to think abstractly and make great connections. The experiences I have had will never leave me, even if I never have another manic or depressive episode again. You don't need to spend your whole life in one extreme or the next to retain the clarity or knowledge you gained from it. I used to think that the way I think and the abilitity to think the way bipolars can was directly and only because of the extreme moods, now I am not so sure. That has not changed yet, maybe there is more to it. I can hand in my extreme moods but not my pearls?

I also don't think that in absense of symptoms you loose your being. I'm not going to become someone else or have to live a dull boring life if I stay free of those symptoms. That is also a choice we get to make I think. India has always been one place I really want to spend some time ( There were a few places that fascinated me while studying the world and India was at the top) I have three kids, but thats not so boring. I don't own a car, house, or any debt for that matter, and I can't see any reason not to follow my heart.

Now I have to figure out what I really want to do, I have a few options that are pulling me. The one that seems most unreachable might be something to consider. It must seem most out of reach for a reason. Maybe I want it more?

I guess I am still struggling with fitting in the world... and what my role is....

... but I am still young. Maybe it would be more concerning if I thought I knew and had it figured out all...

Hmm, yeah. I don't have that figured out either. I am working on it right now.

Heh concerning if you thought you knew and had it all figured out! Yes, I think so too!! Maybe it is ever changeing, our place and role, maybe it evolves as we do and we will never have it all figured out, but only for right now where we are now. What should I do now, where should I go now, how about now, what about now, are we there yet? Are we there yet? No we are here now.

Well, all things get romanticised. But, here's the thing, I'm a big evolutionist. I am spiritual, but I see how evolution makes sense. The weak are over taken by the strong. So I believe there must be some purpose for being this way. There must have been something so that it perpetuated through history to be here now. There must have been something attractive about it to be part of the current population.

Really, you can look at it two ways. If bipolar is an illness, then it's something that malfunctions in the wiring which causes us to have these symptoms. If bipolar is not an illness, and just a way that that human mind is built this way for a certain purpose, then it's a purpose that is no longer used by society and instead makes us appear to be malfunctioning.

For example, there was some research recently showing how people with high anxiety levels would actually be beneficial to a tribe. They are more likely to be high alert to things others may not pay attention to, thus saving everyone from dangers.

So why not psychosis? Maybe it served some purpose to our ancestors. Paranoia can be a lot like anxiety....

But, I am not a scientist or a doctor. It's just an idea.

I love history, and to a lesser degree anthropology and have dedicated a good bit of time to both. I certainly understand the point of view you're coming from, but personally to me things are often simply what they are, with human reasoning imbued upon them. There's no right and wrong, and the winds know we can't exactly spectate these unique individuals in the past first hand to judge. However, there are definitely many great minds in the past that were a tad strange and crazy, that ended up benefiting their society. Purpose is subjective, but no denying what has and can be done.

On the flip side, one could also note that there has been a sever drop in mental well being ever since the mid 1800s, growing exponentially into the 21st century. Some say it's simply because we have a better understanding of psychology now so it's easier to see these flaws, whilst others claim that it is our society now days that has become sick, thus human well being has gone downhill. Both probably play a role.

Sometimes I joke with a friend whether something is psychotic, or visionary. Who knows? Joan of Arc for example....totally wacko, or really did have the ability to hear god speak? Regardless, she definitely made an impact during the Hundred Years War....purpose? Or just is? O.o

And just for the record, I think that too often people with MI try to correlate MI with uniqueness, especially in the past. I think that many unique individuals past and present have often struggled with MI, but just because one has MI, doesn't make one special.

Sorta like square = rectangle, but rectangle does not have to be a square...but...less absolute. I think you know what I mean. Boy we went a bit off topic...pleasedunshootmevenus.

*shoots with toy gun... cause that's how we do it here*

I think it depends. I think many of us posses certain uniqueness, often somewhat troubling... but it's that uniqueness can cause mental troubledness... not the other way around.

(hence my struggle with concept of recovery. How much my Venusness is connected with my struggling with life? Hard to answer, tbh)

Noooo....don't assassinate me! Crazy friggin Czechs and their BB gun grass knolls....

Anywho! I agree that it's the "uniqueness" as we're calling it, that can cause the mental wackiness. I think that's what I said in my previous post anyways. With that in mind, I too often find it interesting to toy with the idea of "recovery' as we often see it, because how much of that, is simply the condition of life, or our being? And I don't even mean that in the existentialist way.

And at the end of the day you like your Venusness for the goods and the bads, even if some days the bads really suck. For me, there's parts that I'd really like to get rid of, but for the most part can bare, and otherwise I'm me with all the goods and the bads and am happy that way, even if it drives me cray-cray at times.

I think the thing I'm trying to say is that we're not unique.

I think the real thing I'm trying to point out is that so many people say "I am diagnosed having bipolar. My life is ruined. I can never have a family/hold a job/I now have no purpose." When, in fact, that is totally not true.

But, perhaps you can't sit at a desk from 8-5 trying to reach goals, deal with office politics, making meetings, etc. etc. Because for example, me, my focus is all over the place. I'm incredibly creative. But, it comes and goes like a whirlwind. So, setting a deadline (I will have 5 chapters of my book done by mid-May,) often doesn't happen. Or, since I have to work because, you know, art doesn't really pay unles you're lucky, "I have to have this, this, and this project done by March 6th." That doesn't work out for me either. And so, what happens? I get in trouble. And, that's the nature of societies work world.

I'm a circle trying to fit into a square. Sure, I can sit in the square hole, but that doesn't mean I fill it in properly. However, there is no "alternate" type of jobs, except if you happen to be extremely lucky. So, I will be a circle in a square, and I know eventually that will cause me to lose my job, because squares don't understand that I'm a circle, and although I am a circle, that doesn't mean I'm less I'm just different and do things in a different way.

Well, for the people who choose to see it that way, if they're diagnosed with something, mental health or otherwise, then it will become true for them. As Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." If someone chooses to believe that they have no purpose, no one will be able to give them purpose but themselves.

I'm a very realistic person, so I absolutely understand the needs and realities of having to work and survive, especially having been homeless and extremely poor at one point. But with that in mind, I also firmly believe that if one has a passion, one can follow it even in this world where it's unorthodox. Society's rules and norms are there, but the greatest minds have challenged it, and often changed it. I look up to entrepreneurs, inventors, artists and leaders for that exact reason.

I certainly cannot do a 9-5 job, so I initially became a cook, because I craved a job that was faced paced, exciting, and mildly nuts (cooks are all nuts...) until I came to the conclusion that the working world wasn't for me, and I refused to become another person stuck doing a job just because, and after a bit of soul searching, realized that I had the traits of an entrepreneur and really wanted something of my own, so now I'm own that path. I've seen artists, writers, other entrepreneurs do the same. Sometimes it requires sacrifice before you get there, but we can create our own paths, so why be forced to be stuck in a square as a circle?

This is one of my favourite quotes of all time, that has kept me going to this day -

“If you're going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is.”
-Charles Bukowski

Squaring the circle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Squaring the circle is a problem proposed by ancient geometers. It is the challenge of constructing a square with the same area as a given circle by using only a finite number of steps with compass and straightedge. More abstractly and more precisely, it may be taken to ask whether specified axioms of Euclidean geometry concerning the existence of lines and circles entail the existence of such a square.

In 1882, the task was proven to be impossible, as a consequence of the Lindemann–Weierstrass theorem which proves that pi (π) is a transcendental, rather than an algebraic irrational number; that is, it is not the root of any polynomial with rational coefficients. It had been known for some decades before then that the construction would be impossible if pi were transcendental, but pi was not proven transcendental until 1882. Approximate squaring to any given non-perfect accuracy, in contrast, is possible in a finite number of steps, since there are rational numbers arbitrarily close to π.
The expression "squaring the circle" is sometimes used as a metaphor for trying to do the impossible.

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle

I think the thing you don't understand is that people who make money from their passions are lucky. It was either fate or destiny or luck or "it's not what you know, it's who you know." It's like winning the lottery. Not everyone who can sing will be able to feed themselves with their music. I come from a very large family of artists. Those who are not living in poverty put their to the side as hobbies and work "regular" jobs.

I, too, was homeless and in extreme poverty for a long time. I am doing okay now. Not middle class but can at least feed my kids and know we have lights and water every day. However, I did that by putting aside the idea that I could survive without having a "traditional" job. I wen to vocational school and got the job I have now, where I struggle and suffer. I have never been "lucky" with finding people who will pay me to do things I am passionate about. I am very happy for people who find this. But 95% of people who chase their passion end up sitting in a job they do not enjoy. And why? Because that's how society runs. And, yes, I think that had a lot to do with why there is more mental health problems now.

It's the lie of society: "You can become anything. But even if you work hard, run the distance, and even if you're top of your class/skill/game.... 'anything' is rather limited."

I'm sorry you see it that way. I hope one day you can prove yourself wrong. Many others have, maybe you will too.

I think too many people tie passion and career together. There's a box outside of that, where you really do make your own odds.

It's definitely harder now than 30 years ago to do whatever you want, but I definitely do believe that if you really go for it, you can achieve it. That's how men like Richard Branson, Michael Dell, Ted Rogers, etc got to where they are today. It goes beyond hard work and running the distance, but it's attainable.

I am strictly speaking about your passion as your carreer. I fully believe everyone should persue their passion even if no one else in the world is even aware of it.

But what I've been trying to say, and feel like I'm going around in circles here for hours, is that society is wrong in making it so that we all have to follow the same path for our careers. I think that for people with things like bipolar there would be a much higher career success rate if there were alternate oportunities and alternate ways of going about having a job instead of the either the minimum wage no routine, the middle of the night no sleep, or the 8-5 grind.

I am now going to step out of this, because I just feel like I am talking in circles and not being listened to, but being told what I'm saying....

I think people need to learn how to communicate their feelings first.

This society does a ****** job of raising people to communicate/express themselves. It feels like such a hopeless society.

I want to note that I've noticed people who have been here longer tend to look towards alternatives as they feel more secure in themselves. (Or more importantly, demand better healthcare)

If only there were enough therapists to go around.

I've been on the PC forums for nearly 5 years (first signed up with a different account at the age of in 2008) and I've seen many people disappear from the forums, people I used to speak to that I haven't heard from for a year (or more).

It's good to see that some people find themselves in such a good place that they can recover to the point of not needing PsychCentral anymore and focusing their energies on their lives. Yes it's a good place to not only receive support but also to give support but I still feel it can only be a good thing when people forget about the forums after leaving more positive posts, even though they're missed from the forums and their positive experiences would be appreciated shared to other members of the community.

My attitude towards bipolarity and the way I handle it hasn't really changed much at all. My views on mental health have only been mildly altered by the posts I've seen over a 5 year period on the forum. Even though I may not post often, I'm around a lot to check in on people. The biggest thing I've learned from these forums is that medication and therapy offered by the services available aren't the only way forward and that they aren't effective for all people. A lot of what it takes to turn bipolarity into a positive thing comes from what we do ourselves. Willpower, motivation, strength, determination and optimism. Also it's important, for those that find it useful, to not forget about spirituality...and finding peace in yourself and learning to accept bipolarity as sometime that isn't cured but more overcome.

I have absolutely no idea what the point of all that was. Just wanted to put it out there. There was one point in time that I could structure a reply to a thread in a way that could be deciphered by myself: actually make some sense. Now I just write down flurries of thoughts from my head without structuring them and do what I've just noticed I'm doing now - rambling.

Sorry.
RB.

Of course it does help to have a passion for doing something people will pay for and be temperamentally of an entrepreneurial nature...

Couldn't resist.

And now I'm

(D_h, don't know if you're checking in, but I totally get what you're saying.)

I think one doesn't necesarily have the ideal job.. as long as it's not something they resent and that drains them. But one should then have something besides that. Something to fullfill us... without feeling fullfilled... we will just float aimlessly through life.

But as we get older and gain experience, it's not impossible to find our way. The worst you can do is work job you hate where you do nothing contributive (tbh, I will probably end up in one of such jobs, seeing how job hunt goes... but it's not the end for me), to make money to spend on things you don't need or even want to impress people you don't like.

I often wish school thought how to handle life instead of making kids to memorize facts from many fields. I used to go to fancy schmancy schools ('cause I was a smart kid with ambitious parents)... and oh my. I forgotten most of the crap about rocks, and biology of worms and industries of Sri Lanka and mathematical equations...
Learning how to process information would be more usefull. That and teaching people some damn wisdom, how to get through life in this crazy society, without going crazy themselves. We might have saved ourselves some trouble if we taught common sense.

My jobs have been of the draining and generally unfulfilling sort. There have been many times when pursuing passions has become unrealistic from the sheer exhaustion of them combined with having to deal with life duties in all the "free" time. I should be clear that I'm not talking about "draining" in the sense of "oh, it is such a bore, my vitality feels drained" kind of thing. I'm talking physically (and often mentally) exhausting, even body-breaking. And by "life duties", I'm talking putting basic food on the table, a basic roof overhead, and attending to the needs of loved ones. Not as in "oh, I've got to run Biffie over to soccer/"playdate"/attend to fluffy personal indulgences, btw. I give no thought to impressing anyone with possessions. Always thought it stupid, that "keeping up with the Joneses" s***. As we get older? I'm already there. Opportunity does not spring from chronology. In fact, it can go quite the opposite way. Not going to go into that one, it's too much salt atm.

I'm not saying these things to be snarky. Really, I'm not. I do find it frustrating that "status-seeking over-consumer" gets thrown out there as a given. Likewise, the "if you can dream it you can be it!" mentality is full of assumptions. (I'm not saying you're saying that here, just that it seems to be part of the general conversation). People often have advantages that they take so for granted that they do not perceive their advantage.

The problem comes in extrapolation. I understand there is validity in "dream and pursue" as encouragement toward positivity. It still takes a f***** lot of luck to have that turn the world into your oyster, where you determine your own odds and/or live fulfilled forevermore. Even if 100% of people subscribed to this with 100% enthusiasm and drive, 100% of people would not have that result. This is where the falseness of this mantra lies. The success of the few rides on the backs of those not so lucky far more often than not. So there is also a certain cruelty to promulgating the mantra, because it suggests that if one doesn't arrive, one just hasn't "tried hard enough", when in fact it is a mathematical and economic impossibility, even not taking into account people's personal limitations.

Granted, this predominantly applies to work/economic endeavors, but people are not always as free as we'd like to think to pursue even personal passions or goals. A lot more, yes, but still not an absolute.

Alright, seriously, I need to get out of here. There's a mountain of crap I've got to deal with that the clock is not going to stop ticking on. Damn.

I live in a post-communist country. Things aren't exactly rosey here. So no I don't believe "anybody can be a rockstar or a president"... but you still got a lot choices. And I don't think I am "cruel" for saying that.

I acknowledge my advantages. Yeah, my family has some savings. I had free education (free in money only). But I am not a rich priviledged brat. I would not even call myself a first world brat.

I sometimes think do for fear for not saying "they haven't tried hard enough"... dismiss people who made their way. We call them luckier, as if it made us somehow better. Many of them are however not "luckier", but did really work harder.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Venus, I intended "cruel" for application to the economic mantra.
I don't think you're a brat.
I'm not one either.
I don't totally understand the first part of the last bit (linguistically), but...I'll give it a go.
I'm not dismissing people who made their way because they say others don't try hard enough. I'm pointing out that its universal application is flawed. So it could be said that I dismiss the universal application of the premise. Not the people. But if we really want to push it to the edge, I say that there does come a point where I do. I see the world in grays. If someone is utterly immoveable in seeing only black and white, I end up dismissing out of sheer pointlessness, as there is no dialogue with such people. You are not such a person btw, not by a long shot.
Yup, some of them worked harder. And some were in fact luckier. I don't see how that would make me better. Or.. think that I am better?? Just not seeing that. On the flip side, it's undeniable that there are those who have made it who do think they are better. Not all of course*, but plenty do. I refer especially to the economic realm on that. I think it's less prevalent in other (non-economic) areas. Certainly not non-existant though. How about I try that without the double-negative . It exists.

(*Haha, guess it's pretty obvious that I'm not a fan of universal declarations, lol!)

Ok, now I really do need to get on it. I shall resist the urge to peek at PC...

I gave up on my dream job a while back. I had a chance, I mean, at 17 I was doing well in college, but a manic episode led to a 3 month hospitalization. Since then I've tried returning but anxiety shoots through the roof when I walk into that building!

As boring as it sounds, I'd like a boring life. All my family before me have got a job (not one they particularly like, either), married and lived with their husband/wife until one of them died.

I like the sound of waking up at 8am, going to work for 9am, working until 5pm, coming home, cooking for my boyfriend, going bed at 11pm and repeating that until I retire and die at a reasonable age.

I don't know if that makes me boring, but it's what I want. I just can't get a job because I have next to no qualifications and my previous jobs have ended very badly. As in, suicide attempts and hospitalization. So I can't use them as a reference. And I can't afford to go back into education.

I'm perfectly happy as I am now, though. I'm looking for a full time job, ANY JOB, that will get me by.

Your ambitions and your positivity, if I'm honest, make me just ever so slightly envious. Though I do admire it!

RB

Just caught up on this thread. So many interesting view points. I'm not prepared to give up my meds at the moment - they work and the risk of things going badly is too much at the moment. But I like the idea that at some point I WILL get to try going off them. To be honest I'm not sure how much of my recovery has been from being on the right meds and how much has been through learning better coping mechanisms and confronting the triggers behind my depressions.
As to the "you can do whatever you want" idea. I think it is a dangerous lie. You definitely have choices, not always good choices - but there are definitely limits on what you can do.