When I speak of willpower, I am not dismissing your suffering...

... there has been recently several discussions on approaches to our wellness. Lot has been said, but let me just point out few things.

1) "you can't will yourself out of bipolar, just like you cannot will yourself out of cancer". Actually, you cannot get through cancer if you give up. Often it happens person gives up and dies (hence why if people been married for decades and one dies, the other one of dies quite soon afterwards, without showing much symptoms of illnesses before).
And as much as it sounds nice "it's not your fault" upon being diagnosed... it can pretty much doom you, if taken the wrong way.

You actually can do a lot for yourself. And the right attitude does a lot. It helps you through. Go and soul search. Especially if you are doing badly... you probably have not much to lose. One theory is that major set backs are way of life telling you to reflect and change... so if you cannot go on right now... sit back and reflect. Discover. Soul search. There is a way.

2) meds or not meds... I often get "you discourage people from getting the right treatment". But I speak to those for whom the mainstream doesn't work. If it works for you, chances are you are not gonna listen to some chick on the internet... but if you are seeking, why shouldn't I show you what worked for me? You don't have to follow. But if you are struggling... maybe you could consider.

Do what works for you. But please don't medicate "I hate my life, my job and my husband... but proper girls don't complain". If there is objective reason for your problems, it needs to be adressed in some way. And if your loved ones rattle on you for studying this and not studying that, for dating or not dating, for the way you wear your hair and peel oranges... it's often their problem, not yours. As much as it can damage your emotional well being.
And psychdrugs are mind altering substances. They can work on moods... but not really on personality. That's up to you.


3) Spirituality: it's not about God exactly, or about being good Christian. It's about knowing your place in the world, being at peace... we often tend to get morbid or nihilist.... that's where spirituality and philosophy comes. If you think of death in abstract terms, that's for priest or shaman or your soulmate to discuss. Your doctor may not help much here.

4) I do think we have a lot of personal responsibility and that we have our fate in our hands. Yes, there are extrenal factors... but we still have a lot of choices. What ifs are often waste of time. It is what it is.
This is connected with number 3... as I think things happen for reason. We need to learn from them.

It may not be fair, but life just isn't. It could be much worse too, as you could be living some hellhole trapped in (genocidal) civil war or live somewhere where people die because the water isn't clean. And I don't think it's that offensive to say bipolar is better then dying of malaria or cholera or whatever scary disease we only read about here.



to be continued:

It's that old saying, "Mind over matter." This has a lot of value if you know how to take it to heart, and actually use it in your life. To use another example, there are people who are physically disabled who are extremely depressed and spend much of their times doing nothing, and then there are those who have become athletes and are giving lectures on how being disabled doesn't stop them from living.

People often say that mental illness is something else, or whatever it may be, but the fact of the matter is at the end of the day, everybody has their own issues to overcome, regardless of what it may be. I see why mental health is any different. It should not be used as an excuse.

I truly believe that we are in control of ourselves, even if not our emotions all the time. We choose our own actions, and take the consequences for them. There are external factors outside of our control, and there's some crap you're born with or can't escape, but it's about how you play the cards you're dealt and coming out on top. So no, you can't "will" yourself out of bipolar, or other conditions, but you can "will" yourself a better life even with whatever your problem is. Don't ever use a diagnosis as an excuse.

I'll be honest. I've met and befriended a lot of people with issues over time, and the majority of those who are doing very well, especially compared to how they were at one point, did not get there because of psychiatric medications. With that in mind, and looking at how many people I see on meds and doing very poorly, I definitely don't think that meds are a solution, especially not by itself.

With that said, it really does come from what works for you, and whether you're willing to admit when something is not working. Half the problem is when people cannot admit to themselves that they need change and go about finding it. I find this mentality a lot with people on meds because it has come to represent their only lifeline.

So maybe that chick on the internet with alternative ideas is worth considering, because let's be fair, it doesn't hurt you to at least hear new ideas, and say what you will there is a certain stubbornness in attitude about this topic quite often.

This one is easy for me - Modern Western medicine certainly cannot address the soul/spirit, and religion as we know it often doesn't have the answers or solutions either.

I'm not a very spiritual person by any standards, and don't believe in the literal definition of a soul, but I do think that mind, body, and spirit are all there and they must all be addressed for maximum well being. Addressing the body is easy (although many still choose to not do it), but mind and spirit are a bit tougher. I think that a combination of expanding your knowledge and awareness can do wonders, whether it's through a religion, a philosophy, or ton of books and some traveling.

*ahem* You spelt external wrong. ANYWHO

I think I addressed most of this back at 1) but I'll disagree with Venus here (wow shocking I know) that things happen for a reason, but regardless I think that what separates a successful person and a fool is how one learns (or not) from their experiences and how they incorporate this knowledge into the future.

But yes, life sucks, it's not fair, but with all that in mind, someone always has it better and worse than you, and your life is your own. What you make of it regardless of circumstance is up to you.

P.S. Replying to this was annoying as hell. >.> Sometimes the coding here is so messed up. That, and your posts are funny.

It's true you can't will yourself out of bipolar, but you can choose to fight against it and come at it with a "I'm going to beat this" attitude. Regardless how you choose to do that, feeling powerless in the face of something like bipolar or cancer or diabetes is exactly what causes people to get worse, not better.

It's like suicidal thoughts. I struggled with them for a very long time. I was 12 years old, now I'm 33. I had multiple attempts. I have overcome them almost completely. That doesn't mean I don't have them. That just means I have come up with strategies to fight against them that work for me. And, I had to do that all by myself. I had no T and I had no pdoc, and I had no family member or friend who was interested in hearing me talk about what is happening to me. Now, I am working the same road to overcome my SI issues and it's long and hard, but I have faith in myself that I can do it, and it's not easy and I sometimes take a step forward adn two back, but I can't give up.

Just like my mom who lived with stage 4 cancer for many years. When she died she only had 5% healthy tissue in her entire body. The doctor at the hospital had no idea how she was possibly alive at all. She had a permanent chest catheter to take her medicine through, and the last time she was in the ER the doctor asked my aunt how long she'd had it. My aunt said "5 years," and the doctor was stunned, saying people only live months after having one of those put in, not years. My mom was alive on will power and nothing else.

So, a lot of healing does come from attitude. I know my mom was in extreme pain possibly my whole life with her. But she had a great attitude and I feel that although I lost her, it was a blessing that I got the chance to see that type of sheer will power.

dark heart - That was touching. I'm not normally sentimental but that really is touching. And like I said, it really is about how you can learn from your experiences, even when they're pretty horrible.

I like your attitude

She taught me the only way to live is to fight and not lay down despite the fact that it's impossible.

It's funny because I live this way. And if I tell my husband I'm sick he says "why aren't you laying down in bed?" It's because that's not how I was raised!

It may not be fair, but life just isn't. It could be much worse too, as you could be living some hellhole trapped in (genocidal) civil war or live somewhere where people die because the water isn't clean. And I don't think it's that offensive to say bipolar is better then dying of malaria or cholera or whatever scary disease we only read about here.-VH

Amen...Hallelujah, and thank you for mentioning this truth. I have seen great misery in this world, and am intolerant of those who complain about the unfairness of life, over a fine meal, in an expensive restaurant, having just spoken to their broker.

Pish!

-Fleeing

Thanks, Dark. Very inspiring. Sometimes one just needs tales of human spirit.

I agree with this ...but "cannot will your way out of bipolar" , well I'm not quite so sure. This is where cancer and diabetes comparisons go wrong. We know what cancer is, we know what diabetes is, we do not know what bipolar is. Until we know what it is ..I choose to leave that possibility on the table. There are people who claim to have fully recovered and I have little reason not to consider their experience as much as I consider others experience.

The science is not there yet, and science especially tells us possibilities can be endless. even with cancer and diabetes we are still learning. And even when we are given facts, facts change ..they only represent knowledge we have right now. Will I deal with bipolar symtoms all my life, it is not set in stone. Even cancer patients can become cancer free. Even if there is chemical imbalance, there is no reason I am aware of that chemicals cannot become rebalanced.

The rest yes ..I stand by it 100%

Sometimes people do get upset when we propose these ideas, and I have gotten the "well you must not really care" . I do care very much, which is why I try to share what I have seen work.

Well, I thought it was all very good and I enjoyed it. In many ways (and in your own
way) each of you confirms what I believe about Bipolar illness.

I'll be succinct with this one: get the "computer" right and the rest of the body is
going to respond appropriately. We do have the ability to do more than we have
done to assist ourselves, and I'm a great believer in that.

I felt I had to respond:

"you can't will yourself out of bipolar, just like you cannot will yourself out of cancer". Actually, you cannot get through cancer if you give up. I don't see this statement as giving up. It's saying you need help, support, and possibly medication to survive.

But if you are struggling... maybe you could consider. Occasionally this can be triggering especially when struggling, even when you know you deep down made the right choice. Psychdrugs are mind altering substances I don't think anyone takes psychdrugs lightly because they do work on the brain. It still stings a little for me because my son requires an AP to survive. We have spent (and continue to spend) thousands on different alternative treatments. please don't medicate "I hate my life, my job and my husband... but proper girls don't complain". You can't medicate out of situations so psych meds will not anyway. I don't think it's that offensive to say bipolar is better then dying of malaria or cholera or whatever scary disease we only read about here. I really do not feel you can compare MI to dying of physical/situation diseases. It downplays both.

I really do appreciate your advice though. It gives me ideas to use on top of all the others treatments we use.

I guess for me it's... I am not there yet. But then again, I don't do nearly everything I could. I eat semi-good, but not strictly good, I am caffeine addict, I like my booze, I participate in materialist society instead going to woods and reconnecting with nature fully...
(there is always more things one can do for themselves after all).

I am not sure if I personally will ever recover truly... but I think I can live with that. It's pretty complicated thing for me anyways.

I think what she meant in that subject is she's not trying to tell people not to take medication if they truly need it, like your son, but if it isn't working for them for whatever reason it may not be the only way to go.

I think it is like all things. Some respond to meds and some don't. Me,for example, I am very sensivite to medicines and chemicals like soaps and household cleaners. I'm allergic to so many antibiotics. And even 2 of the 3 psych meds I've tried I had a bad reaction already, and the other one I'm super sensitive to it, I think. What's considered a normal dose for me is way too much. So, personally for me that might not always be the best answer.

and as for Dragon, chi-chi-dearest:

I had one legless friend... she was very driven in life. Had relationships, studied... like anybody else.

There's also one czech punk-rock singer who lost leg. He picks chicks on his fake leg

I knew another person who walked with crutches everywhere... but travelled the world.

Lot of things can be done if you want them. self-pity is sometimes oh-so-appealing (many of us been there...), but it just doesn't win you anything.

This.

And that psychdrugs really aren't "vitamins for brain" or "correcting the imbalances". That's just simplifying the situation... and doesn't even tell the truth.

This is one that we see often and it sticks out to me for a few reasons. Triggers that is MM.

Often people try to avoid triggers, but to me triggers are begging for attenion, so they keep popping up, "look at me, look at me, you need to pay attention because something is not working here and needs your attention." so I think looking at what is causing the reaction of being triggered and what needs help there is more helpful than avoiding things that cause that kind of reaction. Avoiding only tucks it under the carpet until you trip on it next time.

Venus, for me I think it comes down too, why not? I have always been a bit more of a "why not?" than a "why?" type of questioner. Why not there be a cure? I don't know it's a disease so I don't even know if a cure is needed. I can't wrap my head around the answers for why not. I think that is why I come to that possibility.

Yup...and one example of my own is actually my father. I really dislike that man, and certainly don't get along with him, but he'd only had use of one leg ever since he was a child, and built an empire from nothing. From my understanding, he started off as a smuggler, until he started a legit business and is now a big time businessman with three companies. This is also in a culture and society where people who are disabled are viewed as and treated like second class citizens.

I think looking at what is causing the reaction of being triggered and what needs help there is more helpful than avoiding things that cause that kind of reaction. The cause is that I would love to not be medicated. Especially when I'm not completely "here".

Do you think it's impossible for you? Not now... but ever? Who knows where you may be in few years.

I recall Anika saying it may be impossible for her too.

Just have to learn to live, like everyone else in this world, and learn to live with bp too, but first have to learn to live

Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk 2

I personally am starting to think that perhaps a large part of the problem isn't us who have bipolar. More and more, being on this forum and meeting so many intelligant people, I am seeing that it's not completely us with the issue here.

The world wants everyone to march in step to the same drum. Get up, go to school, get a job, buy a house, have a familiy, save money for retirement, retire, and having reached the reward of old age, do whatever until you die.

But in my job I see this more and more (and I'm talking what I observe of other people all around me,): Get up, go to school, get a job, struggle to pay bills, struggle to eat right, struggle to exercise, struggle to spend time with family, struggle to relax after stressful day, struggle buy medicine, struggle to fit in, suddenly old, not enough money to retire, have to keep working depsite being 70 years old / retired but now not enough money for medicine, suddenly can't drive to doctor appointments, suddenly no help from family or friends, suddenly alone and old, panicing because life is complicated!

We all don't fit into the box! A thousand years ago someone with schizphrenia or bipolar who sees things had a job. They had a place in the tribe. They were the shaman, the medicine man, the spirit talker, the oracle, the priest or priestess. They were important. Somewhere along the way, that fell out of the bottom, and we have the horror stories of assylums and tyring to "fix" people because the box of the "work at a job until you die" mentallity was born.

So, hey, it's not all us. I'm starting to think the problem is that we don't fit into the box and maybe we're not supposed to fit into the box! But the box we fit into has been pushed into a dark corner that no one wants to talk about, so maybe, just maybe, we struggle because our true purposes are not being served. This is just a theory....

MM, Venus recalls correctly. I thought it was impossible to ever be off meds, not just that..I thought it was impossible for me to be symptom free for a whole month if any time at all. I thought it was impossible to not have deep depression, mania, psychosis, healthy body weight, free from thoughts of starvation and actually love my body in it's strengths and weaknesses let alone like myself.. I thought it was impossible to not have anxiety attacks, flashbacks, all my symtoms from ptsd. I made many many very desperate posts here. I had virtually no hope left, maybe a very tiny seed of it which could either grow or shrivel. And I certainly did not have doctors who believed in me either, nor family for that matter, even my bf was convinced that was my future.

You never know what the future holds, or what you can do guide your future. That is why keeping doors open helps, because it removes the impossibles and replaces them with possibles. Impossibles fill our heads with fear, doubt, lack of belief in ones self, robs you of motivation and hope, but you need all those things to shape your future into what you want it to be.

It becomes life happening to you instead of living your life. There is a saying I really like " what appears to be coming at you is coming from you ", a few years ago that saying might have made me upset, or I might not have really understood the message. Especially when dealing with the mind, we so often feel like stuff is coming to us from the mind or to the mind, but it is coming from you, to you. That is really a good thing because we have little power of stuff coming at us, and plenty power over things coming from us. And when stuff does come at us we still have the power to choose how it affects us.

I enjoyed reading your post and agreed, in most part, with what I read. Though I don't believe everyone can make a full recovery and live a full and normal life, I believe a lot of what goes into recovery and living a better life comes from wanting to make a change.

Now I'm not saying willpower alone will make your life substantially better - I actually think willpower is just a part of it but nonetheless an important part. Along with willpower, it is important to find whatever other support you can. I've had troubles myself with establishing a healthy mix of self-help and reliance on support of which doesn't come from within ourselves: such as support in relationships (whether that be friendships, peers, husbands/wives, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc) and for some medication and therapy.

However, even though I do believe willpower alone is not enough, I think it's important for all bipolar patients (once in the place to do so) to find the willpower to make a change. Some take a bipolar diagnoses as a life sentence and though I'm one of those that admits I'm going to encounter struggles for the rest of my life, it doesn't mean I won't use all of my willpower to overcome the symptoms of whatever episode I'm in. To push myself to get out of bed, to get a shower and to do something productive.

Please don't take what I'm saying as a: "Pull your socks up, it could be worse" because that's not what I'm saying at all. I know how difficult it is, we all do. When in a depressive episode, the last thing you care about is pushing yourself. Try to find a balance between motivating yourself and using your willpower to control the disorder and having some well-earned rest to avoid pushing yourself too far.

Neither am I saying willpower alone will give you a symptom-free life. Willpower is just the motivation and energy you need to help yourself to overcome obstacles. Along with willpower you may require medication or therapy. What I'm saying is that it can be an important mix of willpower, a small amount of medication (at least to keep you stable long enough to implement some changes and begin to build your life), therapy and a bit of help from the people close to you.

RB.

dark heart - I personally think that overplaying what schizophrenia/bipolar/whatever it may have been in the past is just too often romanticized of what could have been, since it was just as likely those that were different were ostracized or worse.

However, you are absolutely right that the standard model of living we have now days is extremely flawed, and leave many with regrets towards the end of their life. It's not necessarily those with MI that don't fit the box, because there are plenty here who live that kind of life and are content, but often those that are different who become innovators, entrepreneurs, inventors, artists, etc.

I think that humans have always suffered one way or another, which is why Buddhism has had such strong roots in certain cultures, and the question of purpose is one that humans have always longed for an answer to.

Obviously, I don't have the answers, and I personally believe that the whole idea of a "true purpose" is what humans use to counter the possibility that there is no purpose or reason, but it doesn't stop me from living well by treating my mind and body right, and for striving for what I want, outside of "the box."

Ohh hehe..on vitamins for the brain. If we nourish the body with what it needs in whole form then we elimante the need to substitute with lesser than optimal ingredients. We know that vitamin supplements come with risks and do not act on the body the same way as vitamins from food do.

When I was at the ed clinic they did not give me vitamins and tell me that was good enough and to ignore the root of the problems. But that would keep me alive to some degree sure.

what is "full recovery" and "full and normal life"? To never have intense feeling and work 9-5 unimaginative job? Marry, get weekend house, two kids and one dog? (as opposed to be high and low... spend some time in India cause you can and live somewhat chaotically... but in the end wonderfully)?

Many BPs are somewhat artsy or otherwise out there. So "normal life"... that gives me hives (just yesterday I had "I don't wanna be teacher!" debate with my mom... teachers are proper. I am not).

So maybe we are that we... as on omen. To do things "normals" wouldn't consider.