[notALICE]

I've vented often on here. It really helps. As I've stated in other posts my son & I were just diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder - he has I, I'm guessing i have I but My Pdoc did not specify, but our treatments by different docs have been similar.

We both were initially on Lamictal. The first time me son stopped taking his meds, after being committed, he ended up committed again less than 3 weeks later for suicidal thoughts. After he got out I monitored his med & he took them until he got a rash. He'd been pushing for Adderall. I wasn't against it, as long as it was coupled with a mood stabilizer.

So he goes to his Psychiatrist & is prescribed Trileptal (I heard good things about that med) and Adderall. My son is 17 - turns 18 on May first. I trusted him this time & kept asking if he was taking his meds. Yes, was always the answer.

The day before yesterday he told me he was only taking one Trileptal a day because it made him too sleepy. When he brandished the bottle of Trileptal in my face as evidence he was taking them it seemed suspiciously full. Meanwhile he's been holed up in his room playing video games non-stop all hours of the night, sleeping all day. Leaves only to go to his PT job. His room is like a bat cave. Dark & gloomy. I reversed his door lock to the outside of the door so I could at least check on him. (I always knock before entering).

Yesterday I got nosy. . .He went out & I checked his meds. He lied. Not a single Trileptal pill taken. He just wanted the Adderall. I took his meds & planned to dole them out...

He became enraged when he found out I took his meds (the Adderall) and the game console, which belongs to my husband. He threw things, called me numerous curse words in front of my 11yo daughter & I and even locked us in my daughters room for a few minutes by holding the door shut while laughing maniacally about it. I didn't know if his behavior would escalate (he's cut himself & stabbed knives in his bed) so I called the police. I sent my daughter to my mothers (my son scared & upset her).

My son was still home when the police showed up. The officer got mad at me for taking his meds. Said the Adderall was working and he probably didn't need a mood stabilizer. Made me give them back to my son. Now you have to understand, my son comes across as a model citizen when faced with authority figures, doctors, etc. This kid who had Jeffrey Dahmer as his profile pic on his FB page. Then the officer said to my son needed to respect me and when my husband got home he needed to kick the **** out of of my son. (I got the officers business card after that advice).

It's Saturday. I'm calling his Psychiatrist on Monday. My son turns 18 in a few weeks. I want to help him, but nothing I do seems to make a difference. I cried my eyes out last night because all I do is try to help him. his behavior also makes mine worse.

Sorry this was long. The officer said this was a parenting issue, but it's more than that to me. He's a sick kid, incapable of taking care of himself.

Experience? Help?

[Eliza Jane]

The officer was an idiot. Don't believe anything he said and consider filing a complaint.

It is urgent that you get in touch with his pdoc and a plan in place before he turns 18. Once May 1st gets here, everyone's hands are tied. I hope pdoc is responsive. Let him know about the adderall. Perhaps he will want to hold off treating the ADHD or switch to something with less abuse potential. I also think some drugs can be monitored in the blood stream. Pdoc might decide that he will no longer be rx'ing adderall unless blood tests show he is taking a mood stabilizer.

Would pdoc do a joint meeting with you and your son?

This is not a parenting issue. Don't blame yourself.

Good luck,
EJ

No experience with that, but I'm very sympathetic with your situation and think you did what was needed during the incident, though the police officer's response was one of questionable value.

The kind of entertainment the boy has at his disposal is fueling negative emotions, in my view. It's important for his psyche; that's why he was so enraged when you took it away from him.

Repeat:
The images he looks at and the violence of games he might be playing feed an emptiness that he is trying to satisfy by the violent entertainment. All images that promote an interest in violence should be removed from his room and from the home. It's too easy for a patient to assume the role of the violent character in the images he looks at.

Something is wrong with your son's sense of self-esteem. Therapy could
help with that.

His problem can exacerbate an episode for you since you have bipolar, too. You need to have a calm, quiet atmosphere in your home for the whole family.

Where is the father,too, as part of the role of disciplinarian in the family? This child will be 18 soon. He needs to know that he can be removed from the home permanently unless he cleans up his act. Your daughter's welfare is being compromised by having this behavior to try to comprehend. Who knows when his violence might explode and really hurt somebody? You're already defending yourself against his tirades.

[notALICE]

Thanks EJ. I needed to hear that. I plan on doing exactly what you said in regards to his Pdoc. I sat in on his first session & I don't think he would object to that.

As far as the officer, I think he meant well & I know he deals with horrific family situations. Coming into my home, where all was calm when he got there (my son is a chameleon - plays whatever role he needs to in order to get what he wants), the officer did not get an accurate picture of what was really the problem. Suggesting a beating, could land my husband in jail. Not understanding the importance of mood stabilizers, which can be life saving, is ignorance on his part.

Today my son is toeing the line, but that usually only lasts a few days before he acts out again.

I'll keep you posted on what the professional says (Pdoc).

[notALICE]

Genetic, unfortunately his stepfather is out to sea for weeks to a month at a time. When he's home my son is good because he respects him very very much. When he leaves he tries to do whatever he wants. All h--- breaks loose.

His biological father had him for a good amount of his adolescence. I thought he could provide more structure. He's married and my son wreaked so much havoc in the home that his stepmother feared for her life. She moved out until he was here with me. He laughed in his fathers face about scaring the stepmother away. He almost ruined their marriage and his dad was losing it. Cops called up there numerous times & our son is so manipulative the cop thought the dad was crazy. His father sent him here & gave up all parental responsibilities. (I did not know how bad it was until all the paperwork was signed).

That was a few years ago. At least down here he respects one parental figure. On an added note he's been through years of therapy. Refuses meds, or pretends to take them.

At 18 he can be removed from the home. I fear for his safety. How do you help a kid who refuses all help offered?

Baffled.

You see a lawyer, discuss the problem, and take his advice. The courts can mandate that he undergo a kind of military training to correct the discipline or
they can remove him from the home.

The problem is that he has been permitted to get away with the behavior. With
no male image in the home most of the time to teach good behavior to the boy,
he is, in my view, without a clear understanding of what is and is not acceptable
in behavior.

I'm sure the illness plays a big role in it, but the courts can also mandate that
he go into a psychiatric hospital and take treatment.

Your lawyer and the court are the very best source of help at this point, in my view.

I wish you all the best in trying to help the child. He definitely needs stronger
and a more effective masculine environment that will teach him very quickly what
will and will not be tolerated in behavior. But first a psychiatric hospital would
probably be the way to go--and through the courts--to start the process of
healing.

[notALICE]

He turns 18 on May 1, by the time I try to file, he's an adult. He had a male image/role model for years with his real dad, family counseling 3 x week. Private therapy, numerous Drs and therapists. tens of thousands of dollars worth on it. He's been committed 3 times already, once there, twice here. while in he's a model patient. I've pleaded when he was in the hospital about long term treatment and was given no info except its a long process to get him in and he'd be 18 before then.

He's not a child, yet does not have any real concept of how to take care of himself. Since he was so cooperative, polite & docile I could not even have him sent to a hospital last night.

Today? He curses at me, tells me to shut up. It's not bad enough from the outside view to mandate help because he is a master manipulator. I appear crazy, and as a mom it's an emotional issue.

[venusss]

OKay, I admit this triggers me as many parents posts do.




So here's a opinion of somebody who was a child with plenty issues once and teenager with some issues... may be considered unsupportive, so skip if you are not ready for perspective from the othert side of fence.

I realize that if I wasn't born to mother who experimented with Buddhism and philosophies.... I may end up at anti-psychotics by age 12. After all meds and designer's clothes was what i was "prescribed" after being send to shrink by my class teacher (for not being giggly happy kids. My father died recently, so I was just in mourning phase).

I am glad my mother never forced pills to me. I am glad I grew up in times and place where I was merely "not paying attention" and not "ADHD" and was not fed the same drugs that armies use for people not to sleep on the job. I am glad that I was never forced into world of psychiatry. It may killed Venus before she could bloom. Sure, some medicated body might be around... but it would not be me, for good and bad.

Meanwhile he's been holed up in his room playing video games non-stop all hours of the night, sleeping all day. Leaves only to go to his PT job. His room is like a bat cave. Dark & gloomy. I reversed his door lock to the outside of the door so I could at least check on him. (I always knock before entering).

no offense, but this sounds like disease called "being teenager" and is easily curable with medicine called "time" and "growing up". I was too holed in my room, reading books and books and more books and scribling out stories that I never shown to somebody and worn weird clothes and talked about death a lot and didn't want to talk to people and was defiant to adults and authorities...

as for his meds... well, he had freaking bad reaction of the first one. The other makes him sleepy, which is probably not fun phase of life when you should be full of life. Doesn't sound his medicine is working too well for him.

and gah, when I suffered the "teenager disease" I was too sketch and didn't tell the truth at times (since my mom would not handle it too well or would judge and judge and judge and when she was done judging, she would judge some more).

Maybe the police didn't act properly, but eh... I don't get calling police on your kids. It will not make 'em respect you more. It will not lead to constructive dialogue. It will not help the relationship between you two.

[notALICE]

Maybe his Pdoc can help him get mandated treatment. My mother was also in the house during his tirade. That's two witnesses.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by notALICE

Maybe his Pdoc can help him get mandated treatment. My mother was also in the house during his tirade. That's two witnesses.

before you force him into this, go read through Icarus forum... plenty people there have been force treated. And believe me, there's little of "I am thankful to my parents and my meds". But lot of "forced treatment screwed me up, traumatized me, took me years to get myself back".

[TheDragon]

Hi notALICE,

I hope you can accept some of what I have to say about this subject, because I would like to see the best possible outcome for both you and your son, having been in a very very similar situation personally and this is something that I feel extremely compelled to respond to. Skip to the bolded stars if you want to skip my life story lol.

I'll give you the background:

I grew up without a father figure around (lived in different country, parents were married but not really together) and went through a lot of stuff since my early childhood years. When I was a teenager, I went through something that really changed my life negatively, and by the time I was 15-16 I had done a whole score of drugs, got kicked out of a few schools, and my mental health was horrible. Aside from a mood disorder that really gripped me at the time, I also had pretty bad teenage angst and anxiety.

My Chinese parents started to take notice, due to high expectations which I was consistently not meeting. They never had much of a presence in my life until that point, where they really tried to step in and intervene by instilling what they considered was discipline and trying to help by getting me meds and doctors and hospitals and whatnot. It straight up lead to war, then me running away from home, being hospitalized and getting kicked out of home where I was homeless for a bit.

Events like police were involved, some violence, my room being barricaded and seiged (quite literately) after the lock on the door was smashed by my father, lots of threats, some violence, and I did also wave a knife around at one point. Things were kind of insane. My room was also dark and gloomy which my parents hated, my sleep patterns were absolutely messed up (insomnia since age 12) and I did play a decent amount of video games and read a lot to distract myself during the quieter times of my life.

Through all this we had a therapist who was trying to work things out with my family, and he straight up told us some extremely useful advice that I think applies to you as well - If your child grew up a certain way, trying to suddenly impose changes out of nowhere will only cause conflict. Changes have to be taught gradually and although both sides want things to change asap and for the bad times to end, no body can suddenly force a thing or event to happen that will suddenly make things better. And in the event that parents are too overbearing and force their child to do something or adopt something, those changes often do not have any long term effect. And by the same logic, if the child forces the parents to change to accept the chaos, he/she is only dooming himself later on with that kind of lifestyle.

*****

Basically, I feel like your son is refusing medication for a good reason, but due to your want of fixing the situation asap, you're seeing it as a potential solution to the problem. But instead of addressing that together, you're trying to force more changes on him and you're both butting heads. Forcing a teenager into the world of medications and doctors for their own good is simply not productive, and the more you push for that, the more a teenager will naturally fight back against it.

The officer is more on the spot than you'd care to admit. He's seen this a dozen times before. There is some bad parenting involved...sorry, but that's the case. Your son does also need to respect you since you're the parent he seems to deal with the most, so that you two can actually communicate.

Let me ask you this, as a mother, do you REALLY want to see your son as sick and incapable? He's working a part time job, which is excellent since a lot of teens in his situation wouldn't even leave the house to work or go to school. He clearly has a strong personality and a sense of spirit to fight back, although at the moment that's posing more of a problem.

I seriously suggest talking to your son openly and honestly about why you reacted the way you do, and to reach out to attempt to work with him. This goes beyond mental health, while it does play a part in how everything came about. This is about your family first and foremost. Other elements are simply aspects of the problem not the problem itself. Keep addressing it as a mental health problem and I'm willing to bet that things will only further deteriorate.

Don't put all your faith in doctors and medications, because they'll start becoming you beacon of hope for your son, when you could be putting your faith into your son to make him the beacon of hope for himself and you, by working with him.

At the very end of the day, while you love your son and fear for him, he's another human being. You CANNOT try to control someone else's life, especially coming into adulthood. You need go beyond your emotions that are so strong as a mother, and start seeing your son as a person. You'll be surprised by how many people can actually take care of themselves if they're put in a situation where they have to and will go beyond what you thought was possible.

[notALICE]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

OKay, I admit this triggers me as many parents posts do.




So here's a opinion of somebody who was a child with plenty issues once and teenager with some issues... may be considered unsupportive, so skip if you are not ready for perspective from the othert side of fence.

I realize that if I wasn't born to mother who experimented with Buddhism and philosophies.... I may end up at anti-psychotics by age 12. After all meds and designer's clothes was what i was "prescribed" after being send to shrink by my class teacher (for not being giggly happy kids. My father died recently, so I was just in mourning phase).

I am glad my mother never forced pills to me. I am glad I grew up in times and place where I was merely "not paying attention" and not "ADHD" and was not fed the same drugs that armies use for people not to sleep on the job. I am glad that I was never forced into world of psychiatry. It may killed Venus before she could bloom. Sure, some medicated body might be around... but it would not be me, for good and bad.



no offense, but this sounds like disease called "being teenager" and is easily curable with medicine called "time" and "growing up". I was too holed in my room, reading books and books and more books and scribling out stories that I never shown to somebody and worn weird clothes and talked about death a lot and didn't want to talk to people and was defiant to adults and authorities...

as for his meds... well, he had freaking bad reaction of the first one. The other makes him sleepy, which is probably not fun phase of life when you should be full of life. Doesn't sound his medicine is working too well for him.

and gah, when I suffered the "teenager disease" I was too sketch and didn't tell the truth at times (since my mom would not handle it too well or would judge and judge and judge and when she was done judging, she would judge some more).

Maybe the police didn't act properly, but eh... I don't get calling police on your kids. It will not make 'em respect you more. It will not lead to constructive dialogue. It will not help the relationship between you two.

This is a boy/almost man who has been threatening suicide since the age of 7. He has slit his wrists vertically the first time he was hospitalized. His evaluations have said he is at risk for self harm & possible harm to others and does not understand reality. He threatened to slit a kids throat from ear to ear, overheard by a teacher. He has admitted to Drs he thinks of suicide every day. (His father informed me of this after he was sent to me).

I do not consider that typical teenage angst.

When I called the police I did not know if his tirade would escalate, and for my daughters protection, my own, and my sons, I would rather be safe.

He was diagnosed as Bipolar I. It's nothing to brush off. The statistics are alarming. I think it's as high as 1 in 5 people with this disorder commit suicide. Not taking his meds put him at risk. We tried it his way for awhile, - no meds - and he said he wanted to die. He wanted to commit suicide.

As a mother I'm supposed to ignore that?

[BlueInanna]

(((Alice))) I've been there, been through this with my 17 yr old son since he was 11... Looking back, I don't agree with much of the advice from the bulk of the professionals. My son and I both have bp & ADHD dx's. My advice to you is to put relationship and communication with him as top priority. I dont agree with tough love at this age and on a kid with emotional/mood probs. the real world is mean enough, youre love and relationship are what will get you and him through this nightmare time. I would try to get him to go to therapy in exchange for trying this med-free that he wants to try. Use it as leverage, imo trusted skilled therapist is golden. Trileptal does / can make you very sleepy. I would say to have the therapist help talk to him about the adderall, and a plan with if he can be responsible with it or should have you hold onto it. I think you may want to talk to him about his privacy, he probably feels really violated. Just let him know you felt it's what you had to do, just that you love him more than anything and want to keep him safe, it's ok to say you're sorry.

It's a hard line to know how honest to be about our personal struggles with our teens. I think the line is that maybe best to share some of what you know cuz you've been there, but to try to have the kid doing more of the talking. Show interest in whatever they talk about, remind him please don't be rude or that's really not ok if he's nasty or calling names. Try to make a plan with him of how you together can avoid future police involvement. Be clear, not personally judging of him (they are so sensitive and easily offended) but the reasons why you can't allow the foul language, violence or destruction of the house, because it is plain not safe for him and you and his sister, and it's illegal. You're trying to steer him straight so that he can have a good life because that's how much you love him.

I have had police at our house way too many times and he's had at least 10 hospitalizations, I only recently have been able to have knives in the kitchen again, and grateful I can actually cut carrots apples etc. I know the hell you're in right now and so sorry you're there please look into therapy or more therapy or different therapist, this is what has helped us more than any pdoc, police and meds. Keep talking here, lean on the team here, they helped me through, still helping me, and we will help you too. It's so hard to not fall into hopeless darkness depression so please keep some hope, you will find the right solution, there are always solutions just sometimes so hard to find. We are here for you

I hope it's not too much advice, just hits very close to my situation I feel so bad what you're struggling through and how alone it feels, hang in there

[venusss]

Taking meds and having meds around can also lead do death.

If we wanna do statistics, ODing on prescriptions is most common way to go out (although I hate using statistics... too bad that furious seasons web was closed, because there was nice debunking of the 1 in 5 statistics... basically, there's not that many suicides to fit this statistic).

It's not that simple... and as for "threats". ****, I have been joking about bombs in my schoolnotes, thankfully they have not been caught. And it was a joke. Not every "I will kill you" is a serious threat.

Thinking about suicide doesn't result in it. Yes, it's something that should be adressed, but hell, forced treatment is not the way. It may even push person into the bad direction. Meds do not always cure suicidal feelings.

You are not supposed to ignore that... but I am telling you, my mother forced meds on me (and yes, I was suicidal through some phases), I would just one day take them all. At once.

[notALICE]

Originally Posted by TheDragon

Hi notALICE,

I hope you can accept some of what I have to say about this subject, because I would like to see the best possible outcome for both you and your son, having been in a very very similar situation personally and this is something that I feel extremely compelled to respond to. Skip to the bolded stars if you want to skip my life story lol.

I'll give you the background:

I grew up without a father figure around (lived in different country, parents were married but not really together) and went through a lot of stuff since my early childhood years. When I was a teenager, I went through something that really changed my life negatively, and by the time I was 15-16 I had done a whole score of drugs, got kicked out of a few schools, and my mental health was horrible. Aside from a mood disorder that really gripped me at the time, I also had pretty bad teenage angst and anxiety.

My Chinese parents started to take notice, due to high expectations which I was consistently not meeting. They never had much of a presence in my life until that point, where they really tried to step in and intervene by instilling what they considered was discipline and trying to help by getting me meds and doctors and hospitals and whatnot. It straight up lead to war, then me running away from home, being hospitalized and getting kicked out of home where I was homeless for a bit.

Events like police were involved, some violence, my room being barricaded and seiged (quite literately) after the lock on the door was smashed by my father, lots of threats, some violence, and I did also wave a knife around at one point. Things were kind of insane. My room was also dark and gloomy which my parents hated, my sleep patterns were absolutely messed up (insomnia since age 12) and I did play a decent amount of video games and read a lot to distract myself during the quieter times of my life.

Through all this we had a therapist who was trying to work things out with my family, and he straight up told us some extremely useful advice that I think applies to you as well - If your child grew up a certain way, trying to suddenly impose changes out of nowhere will only cause conflict. Changes have to be taught gradually and although both sides want things to change asap and for the bad times to end, no body can suddenly force a thing or event to happen that will suddenly make things better. And in the event that parents are too overbearing and force their child to do something or adopt something, those changes often do not have any long term effect. And by the same logic, if the child forces the parents to change to accept the chaos, he/she is only dooming himself later on with that kind of lifestyle.

*****

Basically, I feel like your son is refusing medication for a good reason, but due to your want of fixing the situation asap, you're seeing it as a potential solution to the problem. But instead of addressing that together, you're trying to force more changes on him and you're both butting heads. Forcing a teenager into the world of medications and doctors for their own good is simply not productive, and the more you push for that, the more a teenager will naturally fight back against it.

The officer is more on the spot than you'd care to admit. He's seen this a dozen times before. There is some bad parenting involved...sorry, but that's the case. Your son does also need to respect you since you're the parent he seems to deal with the most, so that you two can actually communicate.

Let me ask you this, as a mother, do you REALLY want to see your son as sick and incapable? He's working a part time job, which is excellent since a lot of teens in his situation wouldn't even leave the house to work or go to school. He clearly has a strong personality and a sense of spirit to fight back, although at the moment that's posing more of a problem.

I seriously suggest talking to your son openly and honestly about why you reacted the way you do, and to reach out to attempt to work with him. This goes beyond mental health, while it does play a part in how everything came about. This is about your family first and foremost. Other elements are simply aspects of the problem not the problem itself. Keep addressing it as a mental health problem and I'm willing to bet that things will only further deteriorate.

Don't put all your faith in doctors and medications, because they'll start becoming you beacon of hope for your son, when you could be putting your faith into your son to make him the beacon of hope for himself and you, by working with him.

At the very end of the day, while you love your son and fear for him, he's another human being. You CANNOT try to control someone else's life, especially coming into adulthood. You need go beyond your emotions that are so strong as a mother, and start seeing your son as a person. You'll be surprised by how many people can actually take care of themselves if they're put in a situation where they have to and will go beyond what you thought was possible.

This is not a situation I'm trying to fix ASAP. This has been an issue most of his life. Therapy was first, family counseling, meds were not introduced until his first suicide attempt. When he came down here i wanted him to try it on his own, because that's what he wanted - no labels, no meds. So we did, for over a year. But he deteriorated & by his own admission when he's not on medication he says he hurts every day emotionally & thinks about suicide. Last time he stopped his meds it landed him back in the hospital because he wanted to die. I don't want to see him suffer!

I don't force pills down his throat. He was in agreement in taking them & then lied. Talking to him? We've tried. He tells us what he thinks we want to hear and then does whatever he wants.

You're right though, I cannot control him. I cannot control anyone but myself. I'll talk to his Pdoc, but maybe he needs to try life on his own at 18.

[notALICE]

And my son was the one who asked the Dr for the Adderall. That drug certainly wasn't forced on him.

[venusss]

do you know why he asked for it though? Amphetamines can be "fun", but can do pretty vile things to mind and body.

Again, I was just sharing a perspective of the other side, based on what I read in your previous posts.

I learned that sometimes you cannot help others... it's up to them to help themselves. He is old enough to know what is helping and what is not. He figure out to find what is realistic. By trying too hard to help others... they often start to self-sabotage.

Originally Posted by notALICE

Maybe his Pdoc can help him get mandated treatment. My mother was also in the house during his tirade. That's two witnesses.

______________________________

Yes, I really think you need to do something to ease the problem in the home. You'll know best what to do after thinking about all the options.

Good wishes.

[notALICE]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

do you know why he asked for it though? Amphetamines can be "fun", but can do pretty vile things to mind and body.

Again, I was just sharing a perspective of the other side, based on what I read in your previous posts.

I learned that sometimes you cannot help others... it's up to them to help themselves. He is old enough to know what is helping and what is not. He figure out to find what is realistic. By trying too hard to help others... they often start to self-sabotage.

Just an observation on your post. You say "he is old enough to find out what is helping and what is not" and in your beginning remarks you said about the Adderall, "they can do pretty vile things to the mind and body". Those two statements seem contradictory.

I appreciate that you are speaking from your own experience & everyone is entitled to opinions.

I did ask for advice & experience. Thank you for listening & commenting.

[venusss]

well, aderall is legal speed. So I don't see any contradiction between person doing something and being capable and drugs having risks. But that's up to the one who takes them to determine.

[Victoria'smom]

Not Alice I plan to PM you tonight.

[Odee]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet that you really need to find out why he does not want to take his medication, especially why he will take one and not the other.

Not alice-please I beg you don't put your son in a boot camp or any other troubled teen facility. Most the ppl that run those places are sadists. I know first hand. Look on a website called heal.

I'm stopping posting on here for now it just triggers me too much.

Sorry I'm not much help on what to do about son. Just keep letting him know you love him, want the best for him, and that u believe in him. I have a 17 yr old too, and I'm having some troubles with him but it is getting better. I believe it can get better for you too.