[goodfather]

Hi, I am a non bp person who recently lost my girlfriend to mania. I'm curious to ask if any sufferers believe your own lies when manic. I ask this because I recently had contact with my ex (I initiated) and it went awfully. She is a hate machine right now and has convinced herself I "held her down" and "controlled" her during our relationship. I assure you there was never a hint of any of the things she has slandered me with. I supported and encouraged her every single day and she had her own life outside of the relationship. She has convinced herself, and friends of this and also her family who are starting to figure out it is all a mirage. So, I'm curious if this is typical delusional type symptoms? She is creating a huge mess of her life right now and I'm broken to pieces as well. I hope this doesn't offend any sufferers. I am just trying to learn.

[lovejoy91]

Very good question. I'm sitting for answers.

[loophole]

Short answer. It can be. I went through a bout with my wife similar to this.. All I can say is it's not fun and it's very very real for me at the time... Can't speak for your girlfriend just for my self.. Sorry on my phone so that's the short answer..

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[Toodles333]

I think everyone can manipulate the truth, whether you suffer with bipolar or not. Perhaps this is her way of cementing the end of the relationship. Some people find it easier to lie and shift the blame, rather than be honest and tell the truth.

I'd give her a wide berth from now on. Onwards and upwards.

[Crazy Hitch]

I'm sorry to hear that your relationship with your girlfriend ended because of a severe bout of mania. Unfortunately episodes certainly can and do take their toll on relationships, whether or not we want them to - from both the person experiencing the mania and the partner as well.

Firstly.

For the record.

I wanted to say I am not a "sufferer" of Bipolar.

I've never considered myself a victim of my diagnosis.

I'm a proactive go getter.

This means that if I've made bad choices when I've been either manic or depressed, when I'm more stable I reflect on these choices and make sure I have some strategies in place for the next time I have episodes.

Does this mean I face consequences?

Sure. Often. Very often.

But I won't allow myself to ever be a sufferer by denying what I have done on my part. This is not a disease. This is a diagnosis.

"Lies".

Well this is not really the word that you would want to be using when discussing symptoms of mania.

The correct medical terminology is "Psychosis". Thank you.

So back to your question.

Would we recognise our Psychosis?

Well, no.

Psychosis is very real to the person experiencing it. And it doesn't matter what anybody says to dispute the facts, if we are psychotic, we are psychotic and will 100% believe what our mind tells us to be true. This can have a sudden onset. Or a gradual onset developing over a few weeks. It can last a few hours. It can last a few weeks.

Please do not think for one second that the intention is to "lie".

This is misleading for our diagnosis.

Well your ex is entitled to her opinion of you, merely because she is your ex. If she is your ex, please remember that she shouldn't play much of a role in your life right now.

You are not portraying her in a very positive light. Which is why I think that personally for your own mental health and for you to move forward from a relationship that didn't really seem to work out, you best move on and forget about her, because clearly, very unfortunately, you have been hurt. And I'm sorry that this happened.

I know you are broken to pieces, and this is a very unfortunate part of this relationship.

Lastly, I really wanted to recommend this for you.

There is an awesome forum -

Partners and Caregivers (for BP).

I'd highly suggest that you ask this there.

It's better that you actually get the perspective from first hand suffers just like you in what was a very turmulous relationship that had really bad consequences for you and has left you feeling confused and hurt.

I'm quite sure that if I were you, honestly? I'd have the same feelings as you do.

I think that this is because unless you "walk in our shoes" / our headspace and so on and so forth, it can be very distressing to observe somebody that you care about during an episode of Bipolar and can cause a great deal of stress and concern, as you had, with your ex girlfriend.

Best wishes to you moving forward. May you find some peace in future relationships.

[Crazy Hitch]

My opinion above is a personal reflection on how I view my dx goodfather

I should have added that as a footnote.

Because I don't fit into a mould and I don't define myself by labels.

So I get that I have a Mental 'Illness' by medical terminology.

I'll just never allow myself to become a victim to the label.

Hope this makes sense on my personal reflections to your question.

[cashart10]

I agree with Hooligan 100% about this being psychosis and not lies. It sounds like what you are describing (you said "delusional type symptoms") and when I (or anyone) am psychotic it is impossible not to believe my own reality. If my thoughts agree with reality, well then, I am not be psychotic. Even if she is not psychotic, irrationality is sometimes an unrestricted symptom of mania. I know when I am manic, if I believe something to be true, well then, you better agree with me or get out of my way. For instance, if I want to go for a drive and I'm manic, my husband will always tell me no. Well, I will believe him an evil bastard for standing in my way when in reality he is trying to protect me from driving 90 miles per hour for hours at a time.

[BeyondtheRainbow]

I do not lie. I say things because I am manic and I believe them. I may be delusional. I may be paranoid. I may just plain old be psychotic. But I do not lie as part of my bipolar and it disturbs me to hear symptoms described as lies. Could someone who is bipolar lie, to themself or others? Of course. But not just because of having the disorder. If the thoughts are related to the disorder then they are not "lies" they are part of the illness.

There is also denial which either of both parties can have. Denial makes untrue seem true a lot.

There's no way for us to be in your ex-girlfriend's head but if she is manic then what she says and does is affected by mania. If she isn't it still can be affected by what happens in mania. Or she could be in denial. Or lying to herself. Or lying in general.

I think the only way to know is to talk to her and listen and try to figure it out.

[raspberrytorte]

I don't know how to answer your question. I never "lied" when I was manic.

[goodfather]

great replies all! I apologize for labeling anyone as a sufferer and also perhaps for the way I framed the question. I honesty thank you all for taking the time to reply. I guess what I am driving at is the big question: When and if she seeks help and stabilizes, will she recall her "psychosis" etc. and reflect? I know I should be thinking about other aspects of my life and I appreciate the advice. I just know that she meant every word she said to me throughout the relationship and she was dead set on us getting married. We were weeks away from me popping the question for real. This was by far the most special relationship/best friendship that either of us had ever been in, we were perfectly in sync and healthy. I'm sorry, I am rambling

[BeyondtheRainbow]

I'm sorry you lost such an important relationship.

I think maybe doing some reading about bipolar might help you understand it better. An unquiet mind by Kay Redfiled Jamison is a good start. There are lots of others. But reflecting on psychosis is not really happening for at least me in the way you are hoping. She may come out of it and go back to feeling the way she did before the mania and not feel that what she has said through the mania was meaningful or not what she meant. She may not remember any of it. She may only kind of remember it, like a hazy effect. It isn't something I've ever come out of wanting to analyze nor have I ever been encouraged to do that; it's usually been "that's over, now let's put your life back together". Because I can spend as much time as I want thinking about the people I ran from in fear yesterday but that doesn't really change anything about how afraid of them I was at the time. The thoughts are irrational and therefore thinking about them rationally won't help fix them. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm walking a tightrope trying to explain this and I apologize for that; I know what I mean but I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth.

There are functional bipolar people who can have good relationships-

And there are toxic bipolar people who have bad relationships.

Just like those without a mental illness.

[goodfather]

No,apologies please! thats a great, straightforward answer. I wasn't so concerned about "fixing" her thoughts, just wondering if she may come around to wanting to "fix" at a bare minimum our friendship.

[BeyondtheRainbow]

She very well might. I usually come out of episodes feeling weaker and sometimes embarrassed. If you are there as a friend and she sees that she very well may respond and if you can be honest but gentle it will help her heal. Every episode feels like a huge new wound is opened and has to heal the best it can with as little scarring as possible. Someone who cares and wants to see you heal is very helpful.

[Crazy Hitch]

Originally Posted by goodfather

great replies all! I apologize for labeling anyone as a sufferer and also perhaps for the way I framed the question. I honesty thank you all for taking the time to reply. I guess what I am driving at is the big question: When and if she seeks help and stabilizes, will she recall her "psychosis" etc. and reflect? I know I should be thinking about other aspects of my life and I appreciate the advice. I just know that she meant every word she said to me throughout the relationship and she was dead set on us getting married. We were weeks away from me popping the question for real. This was by far the most special relationship/best friendship that either of us had ever been in, we were perfectly in sync and healthy. I'm sorry, I am rambling

No, you're not rambling, you're trying to seek further insight into what is at the bottom of everything going on. So it's good to ask questions.

With help, her syptoms, if they were at all psychosis (because remember alot of what she said may frankly have been her opinion) - well yes she can certainly achieve stability in terms of her mental health.

I don't know her which is why I'd be hesitant to even "label" some of what she said as psychosis in the first place ... because it is your opinion that she lied. I have no means of testing what is fact. I can only comment on what you state.

Hope this helps.

[goodfather]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

There are functional bipolar people who can have good relationships-

And there are toxic bipolar people who have bad relationships.

Just like those without a mental illness.

absolutely! this is the paradigm. she was functional until this episode, now she is toxic. I know she didn't mean it. She is perfectly capable of managing her illness with the right support. Unfortunately when it becomes mismanaged, no amount of support can help.

[goodfather]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheRainbow

She very well might. I usually come out of episodes feeling weaker and sometimes embarrassed. If you are there as a friend and she sees that she very well may respond and if you can be honest but gentle it will help her heal. Every episode feels like a huge new wound is opened and has to heal the best it can with as little scarring as possible. Someone who cares and wants to see you heal is very helpful.

I do care and want to help. No one else is going to pick up where we left off and have any idea how to be there for her. Men just use her up when she's like this, of course she invites it, but it happens. I just happened along at the right time for her and we made it work somehow. She was always so grateful to have me. I am by no means seeking to be a hero or sound like one. She has to want it. Many of my friends have told me themselves that there is nobody else who will put as much effort into supporting her or understanding her as I did, That combined with the friendship we shared, the beginning of a blended family with my daughter, the amount of respect and trust we shared, on and on.. I just don't see her being content very long with another person. Who knows though..

[goodfather]

Originally Posted by Hooligan

No, you're not rambling, you're trying to seek further insight into what is at the bottom of everything going on. So it's good to ask questions.

With help, her syptoms, if they were at all psychosis (because remember alot of what she said may frankly have been her opinion) - well yes she can certainly achieve stability in terms of her mental health.

I don't know her which is why I'd be hesitant to even "label" some of what she said as psychosis in the first place ... because it is your opinion that she lied. I have no means of testing what is fact. I can only comment on what you state.

Hope this helps.

of course it helps.. it all helps. here's an example of the kind of stuff I'm talking about.
I reached out this week, she answered angrily. When I asked her if she was pissed at the world or just me, she answered "just you"
she went on to accuse me of "controlling her" and "using her for sex"
I assure neither of these accounts are remotely true.. even slightly. I called her on it and she said " you know some of its true because you (I) were paranoid about me leaving you for another man." she's a waitress, men hit on her constantly but she made it clear there were no issues and it was dismissed.. Even if I were "paranoid" that does not equate to control..
That said, her very next email 5 minutes later was to ask me to come have sex with her, immediately after the accusation of using her for sex.. of course I avoided the subject completely and tried to stay on task. As peacefully and tactfully as I could, I suggested that she is manic and very sick, I also told her she is on the verge of losing a lot more by continuing on this path.
It is summer, she wants to have fun etc. She is already out of money since leaving me. She rented a place she likely can't afford, her car is broken, she's drinking a lot according to her, I'm sure there's drugs in there too. promiscuity is a no-brainer, on and on. It's not going to end well at all. I just hate to see her lose everything that I helped her gain, jobs, car, etc

[BeyondtheRainbow]

My brother has Asperger's. (Which isn't really a thing now with the new DSMV but don't get me started). He's well into middle age and after struggling to be an adult for a long time he fell in love with and married this women who frankly I have a very difficult time tolerating but she was so good for him. She just got him on a level none of us ever have been capable of (she probably also has Asperger's according to her). They got divorced several years ago and his life has fallen apart. Huge, major, legal issues from hell, fell apart. She's been there as a friend and honestly it's the times he copes best, when he's spent time with her. It makes her harder for me to dislike her (she was big on insensitive comments regarding bipolar and was also very loud and very hard to tolerate; she always required at least one PRN to handle any time with her). But if you can be that friend for her, the one who helps life be ok, you've done something really special.

What you are describing does sound manic and maybe just confused (which mania can do). It's so hard to understand and to explain. Which is why people who stick it out are so helpful. I have a friend who for years let me attack him when I was manic and mean. I finally said "no, don't let me do that anymore" and worked on it in therapy and I haven't attacked him in years for being closest when I was paranoid. The paranoia is my responsibility and while I can't control it and can't control all of my response I can use coping skills to minimize the damage, which in that case means not yelling at him for no good reason. But he was there no matter what I was going through and it meas a lot.

[Toodles333]

I'll raise a point that nobody has. At what point will this eventually begin to make you ill? It's really admirable that you are standing by this girl, but you are opening yourself up to an emotional nightmare. This could well be behaviour that will repeat itself over and over again. Do you want that from a life partner? I hope I don't sound harsh, but I can relate to your girlfriend/ex girlfriend. I've been there and done it myself, more than once I've behaved how she is, and I've ended up making partners ill with my behaviour. I'll to the point that they have had to take medication themselves. Somebody mentioned the word toxic earlier. Sadly, that can and has been me in a relationship.
Do your best by this girl, if you chose to take that path. But please, don't let this girl make you ill. There's plenty more fish in the sea.

[Crazy Hitch]

An angry response might be indicative of an elevated mood, or be part of how she communicates when she's somewhat annoyed with people or a situation. Yes, the sad reality is, I believe that she is genuinely pissed at just you, as you have quoted her as saying, perhaps she sees you as her biggest obstacle right now.

When she said she thinks that you are "controlling her" and "using her for sex" - it seems to me that this is genuinely what she believes, at this point in time. Whether or not she can see things from a different perspective if she addresses these issues in therapy, I don't know. It's possible, if you aren't controlling, that her opinion of you won't change. I put this out there, for no other reason than really I've only heard your side of the story, I haven't heard hers, and there is always 2 sides of any story. So I can't pin point behaviours that have lead her to believe this (unless her psychosis made her believe this, which would be unfortunate).

Here's how I view this whole argument over the waitress - how about a different spin on it. What if she gets irritated when you pass remarks that "people hit on her". Maybe she doesn't sort of see it this way? She's a waitress not a (*insert word to indicate intentionally have men hit on her). Maybe she's annoyed that you even pass her comment, after all, she's doing her job, and customer service, in order for her to survive in such a cut throat industry requires polite and courteous conduct at all times (which in your eyes now may be interpreted as her being 'possibly flirty' - resulting in your perception of men hitting on her ..... leading her to calling you 'controlling' because you're indirectly accusing her of flirting (even if not stated) that causes the men to hit on her .... when she's just out there to work and earn money ......

I agree - mania has disasterous consequences at the best of times - so I'm really glad that you've pointed this out to her, it's important that she hears from you she could lose a lot more if she continues on this path. Her wanting sex after what she went and said? Sadly, yes, mania ... high sex drive ... ughh that's a hard one for you.

Finances, drugs, not affording her rent .... no wonder you're stressed to the max gee who wouldn't be! That's hard because I know how much you care about her and you're looking for answers as to what happened in the relationship / what possibly went wrong - I think most people ending a relationship seek some kind of clarity, and for you, thrown in the mix is the manic episode further complicating the issue.

What if you never get clarity?

What if it just so happens she will completely mess this up, despite everything you've done in her power to help her?

I merely put this out there, because that is a small possibility that that may be the eventual outcome, and if it is, you need to start working out how you will mentally cope a few months down the line, if that is the case.

Having said that last paragraph, I need to state something. Mania symptoms can be managed by mental health professionals. It sounds to me like she is in need of a lot of support by mental health practitioners. She's got a multitude of factors going on and it's not getting better and nor is she making things easier for herself, her current behaviour is making her likely consequences worse. And it sounds to me like she is simply too sick to realise this. She needs help. And I'm glad that you're trying to support her. It might soften the blow when her manic episode has passed.

Originally Posted by goodfather

I apologize for labeling anyone as a sufferer

I'll be your sufferer. In what is affectionately known as 'full-blown mania', one can believe their own lies, or may not even realize that they are lying.

[goodfather]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheRainbow

My brother has Asperger's. (Which isn't really a thing now with the new DSMV but don't get me started). He's well into middle age and after struggling to be an adult for a long time he fell in love with and married this women who frankly I have a very difficult time tolerating but she was so good for him. She just got him on a level none of us ever have been capable of (she probably also has Asperger's according to her). They got divorced several years ago and his life has fallen apart. Huge, major, legal issues from hell, fell apart. She's been there as a friend and honestly it's the times he copes best, when he's spent time with her. It makes her harder for me to dislike her (she was big on insensitive comments regarding bipolar and was also very loud and very hard to tolerate; she always required at least one PRN to handle any time with her). But if you can be that friend for her, the one who helps life be ok, you've done something really special.

What you are describing does sound manic and maybe just confused (which mania can do). It's so hard to understand and to explain. Which is why people who stick it out are so helpful. I have a friend who for years let me attack him when I was manic and mean. I finally said "no, don't let me do that anymore" and worked on it in therapy and I haven't attacked him in years for being closest when I was paranoid. The paranoia is my responsibility and while I can't control it and can't control all of my response I can use coping skills to minimize the damage, which in that case means not yelling at him for no good reason. But he was there no matter what I was going through and it meas a lot.

Exactly what I am talking about. Everyone in her family was crushed to find out she dumped me. For the first time in her life she was doing well, very well. She was thriving, and had made peace with everyone for being sick for so long. She's pushed them all away again and has isolated herself. She keeps contact with and manipulates her mom still. Unfortunately her mom is in denial about a lot and tends to enable her.
Right now it's all about money for her. I paid all of the bills and she helped as she could. I think by her giving me money here and there gave her a false sense of being capable of life on her own.
Any contact has to be initiated by me. Like I said in a previous post my last email to her was a thoughtful, tactful message letting her know that I am concerned about her being manic, fighting addiction and setting herself up for catastrophic failure and loss. Her reply was "you don't know me anymore"
A day or two later she sent another email calling me a backstabber for being in contact with her mom (who has started to figure out a lot of the mirage).
I haven't replied, she's clearly all set and unresponsive to any thoughtful interaction.
It's so confusing, because in her emails she did make mention of missing me and my daughter, and how her life is so hard now.

[goodfather]

Originally Posted by Toodles333

I'll raise a point that nobody has. At what point will this eventually begin to make you ill? It's really admirable that you are standing by this girl, but you are opening yourself up to an emotional nightmare. Somebody mentioned the word toxic earlier. Sadly, that can and has been me in a relationship.
Do your best by this girl, if you chose to take that path. But please, don't let this girl make you ill. There's plenty more fish in the sea.

I totally understand and respect the honesty. Obviously, I am just as confused as her. It has made me sick, I'm getting better, taking care of my life and waiting for the future. I'm still at point where I can't see myself with anyone else, so that's where it gets tough.

Originally Posted by Hooligan

An angry response might be indicative of an elevated mood, or be part of how she communicates when she's somewhat annoyed with people or a situation. Yes, the sad reality is, I believe that she is genuinely pissed at just you, as you have quoted her as saying, perhaps she sees you as her biggest obstacle right now.

When she said she thinks that you are "controlling her" and "using her for sex" - it seems to me that this is genuinely what she believes, at this point in time. Whether or not she can see things from a different perspective if she addresses these issues in therapy, I don't know. It's possible, if you aren't controlling, that her opinion of you won't change. I put this out there, for no other reason than really I've only heard your side of the story, I haven't heard hers, and there is always 2 sides of any story. So I can't pin point behaviours that have lead her to believe this (unless her psychosis made her believe this, which would be unfortunate).

Here's how I view this whole argument over the waitress - how about a different spin on it. What if she gets irritated when you pass remarks that "people hit on her". Maybe she doesn't sort of see it this way? She's a waitress not a (*insert word to indicate intentionally have men hit on her). Maybe she's annoyed that you even pass her comment, after all, she's doing her job, and customer service, in order for her to survive in such a cut throat industry requires polite and courteous conduct at all times (which in your eyes now may be interpreted as her being 'possibly flirty' - resulting in your perception of men hitting on her ..... leading her to calling you 'controlling' because you're indirectly accusing her of flirting (even if not stated) that causes the men to hit on her .... when she's just out there to work and earn money ......

I agree - mania has disasterous consequences at the best of times - so I'm really glad that you've pointed this out to her, it's important that she hears from you she could lose a lot more if she continues on this path. Her wanting sex after what she went and said? Sadly, yes, mania ... high sex drive ... ughh that's a hard one for you.

Finances, drugs, not affording her rent .... no wonder you're stressed to the max gee who wouldn't be! That's hard because I know how much you care about her and you're looking for answers as to what happened in the relationship / what possibly went wrong - I think most people ending a relationship seek some kind of clarity, and for you, thrown in the mix is the manic episode further complicating the issue.

What if you never get clarity?

What if it just so happens she will completely mess this up, despite everything you've done in her power to help her?

I merely put this out there, because that is a small possibility that that may be the eventual outcome, and if it is, you need to start working out how you will mentally cope a few months down the line, if that is the case.

Having said that last paragraph, I need to state something. Mania symptoms can be managed by mental health professionals. It sounds to me like she is in need of a lot of support by mental health practitioners. She's got a multitude of factors going on and it's not getting better and nor is she making things easier for herself, her current behaviour is making her likely consequences worse. And it sounds to me like she is simply too sick to realise this. She needs help. And I'm glad that you're trying to support her. It might soften the blow when her manic episode has passed.

Great post, all of it. Thank you. As for the waitress "flirty" idea: I can only tell you we had a very open and talkative relationship. We always kept things in the open air. She would express to me that men would hit on her. Men were gross because they think they can get with her because she's nice to them. She definitely struggles with men and sexuality, we had spoken about it, and she expressed it to her mom and would also tell me she was working through it with her therapist (who she doesn't see any more).
Clarity is a fleeting idea at this point. It's obviously going to get a whole lot worse before she crashes.

[taymickeva3]

I have been with my husband for 18 years married 13 ...before I was diagnosed Ieft my husband every time I was manic ...I always thought the same thing he was holding me back and there were these great things I was suppose to be doing in my life and needed to go out and party and be with other men...and then when I was "normal" I would get back together and I would be happy and inlove again..till my next manic episode and it would happen all over again..he was always there for me even when we weren't together I don't know how ..I can't believe he loves me that much...I even had a child with another man I was in a relationship with.we have been good since I was diagnosed 4 years ago and I still have my ups and downs but we get through them together and our relationship has never been better or stronger...I feel for you ,I have an idea what your going through you just have to go on with your life as hard as it might be and if you are meant to be together she will find her way back to you...

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