[Icare dixit]

Has any of you seen "Experimenter: the Stanley Milgram Story"?

It's basically about how people feel uneasy about the results of experiments that show how many of us are pretty much the same in ways we don't want to admit—not because some outside force makes us similar, but through ways that are reflected in our choices.

It also shows why social science experiments matter and how authority, including that of psychiatrists, can cloud our judgement and wants to soothe us, hindering understanding and self-improvement.

Apart from all that, what it portrays, it's also just a very good film.

[SpasticBliss]

I just watched The Experimenter movie recently and loved it! There are similar studies that have been documented, like the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. What a surprise to see a post about this subject and it not even being fully related to bipolar disorder.

However, I agree with you. When it comes to authority or even perceived authority, we are afraid to say no and we do not stand up for ourselves. Like you said, they "can cloud our judgement and wants to soothe us, hindering understanding and self-improvement."

If your interested in the psychology of authority and basically behavior modification or mind control, definitely look into the Stanford Prison Experiment. It's chilling to explore the psychology of human nature sometimes.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by SpasticBliss

I just watched The Experimenter movie recently and loved it! There are similar studies that have been documented, like the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. What a surprise to see a post about this subject and it not even being fully related to bipolar disorder.

However, I agree with you. When it comes to authority or even perceived authority, we are afraid to say no and we do not stand up for ourselves. Like you said, they "can cloud our judgement and wants to soothe us, hindering understanding and self-improvement."

If your interested in the psychology of authority and basically behavior modification or mind control, definitely look into the Stanford Prison Experiment. It's chilling to explore the psychology of human nature sometimes.

Yes, I know of that experiment. Recently, a documentary and/or film (I don't remember which or title(s)) has been made about it.

It is similar and interesting (and of course disconcerting, but sweeping in it under the rug or shooting the messenger is far, far worse).

The "Experimenter" film gives a great example of this displacement, shooting the messenger: science can show us how we are manipulated and is subsequently blamed for manipulating. Science, or individual scientists, are easy targets. Authorities aren't.

Regrettably, these human flaws have also corrupted academia, but in the end, the scientific method is stronger: science will lay bare pretence. The Internet and research databases help. If only articles were more accessible. Not coincidentally, I try to make it more accessible to "the masses". But distrusting science, is the greatest manipulation of all, like a persecutory/paranoid delusion, it's very hard to dispel. And it is being used to great effect especially in the US.

This displacement happens everywhere. Here as well.

Don't analyse or think for yourself for you're no doctor.

[Icare dixit]

The relation to BP: we don't wanna see results of studies that show we do things wrong or even the same and we like to believe all problems are not in any way created by us, like an illness we fight.

Depression (insofar it's more than—physical—exhaustion or under-stimulation) is very much a (more or less subconscious, like everything we actively do) choice we made, the alternatives being worse arguably. Mania is not very different: part autonomous, part actively done by us.

[Icare dixit]

Choices we don't want to admit and authority figures help us with that.

[smallwonderer]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Choices we don't want to admit and authority figures help us with that.

I have a question. What makes you reply to your own posts? I know I do that in email...

[smallwonderer]

Originally Posted by smallwonderer

I have a question. What makes you reply to your own posts? I know I do that in email...

But only when I'm sick .

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by smallwonderer

I have a question. What makes you reply to your own posts? I know I do that in email...

I don't reply to my own posts. I give summaries, takeaways or conclusions.

I hope you'll get better soon. What have you come down with?

[Icare dixit]

Jokes are indeed a good coping mechanism.

Reminds me of

in "A Few Good Men". Actually just part of a dialogue.

[Icare dixit]

Ok, I might also elaborate. Here goes.

We can choose (as well as be forced to) to end mania, but we risk a very big impact on our sanity, bigger than if we'd continue.

We can choose (as well as be forced to) become depressed, going on without it, but we risk chronic insanity.

If we take the risk of having depression and mania, we might actually accomplish something we want to accomplish. If we distance ourselves from our emotions and don't want anything, we might have better chances of staying alive.

If we allow more of our manic-depressive behaviour into our personality (arguably/probably it is a choice you have to make early on), we risk being chronically dysfunctional, but we may have more direction and stability.

[pirilin]

You're back at being your own manic self, aren't you. That makes me happy.
GIVE 'EM HELL!!!.

[raspberrytorte]

Icare! What you're saying is so interesting, and for a change I understand you (don't take that the wrong way. I just think we're normally on different planes of existence.).

[pirilin]

Originally Posted by raspberrytorte

Icare! What you're saying is so interesting, and for a change I understand you (don't take that the wrong way. I just think we're normally on different planes of existence.).

That gives me hope. Someday I'll understand too. We are in different planets. Or galaxies or universes. Dayum, I think I'm going manic too.

[smallwonderer]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

I don't reply to my own posts. I give summaries, takeaways or conclusions.

I hope you'll get better soon. What have you come down with?

Oh I think I just caught a case of mania. must be contagious like sneezing.

I was asking a genuine question. I'm interested in how pressured speech manifests in written form. You designated yourself the resident PC bipolar researcher so I was hoping you could explain what you think it is that drives things like responding to something that one has just written. If I had to guess, it's a little bit of rumination on what was just said and the conviction/flight of ideas that something must be added. But just a guess...

[Icare dixit]

You could call it flight of ideas yes. Conviction (be it expressed somewhat polemically) as well. But I am not sure I'm completely right (it's unlikely) and I appreciate arguments that dispel my beliefs, people questioning them.

I still wake up depressed and I'm somewhat vulnerable during the day but all those mania-like things are (quite deliberately, as I don't hold back those personality traits, such as impulsivity) very ingrained in all of me.

It is associations and flight of ideas, conviction and impulsivity. Quite chronically me.

I am serious and believe in what I say but I don't take it too seriously.

[Icare dixit]

It might be important to note that my ideas aren't new, so that's where it might be unlike a more typical flight of ideas.

Much of it is making sure that it might be understood. That's my aim.

And I am glad I finally succeeded somewhat!! Yay me!

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Ok, I might also elaborate. Here goes.

We can choose (as well as be forced to) to end mania, but we risk a very big impact on our sanity, bigger than if we'd continue.

We can choose (as well as be forced to) become depressed, going on without it, but we risk chronic insanity.

If we take the risk of having depression and mania, we might actually accomplish something we want to accomplish. If we distance ourselves from our emotions and don't want anything, we might have better chances of staying alive.

If we allow more of our manic-depressive behaviour into our personality (arguably/probably it is a choice you have to make early on), we risk being chronically dysfunctional, but we may have more direction and stability.

In other words, and now I even start to quote myself (oh, boy! ), I chose a mix of the three options I described, mostly the second and third. I try to skew it more to the last one. So far, it seems to be working. I embrace and try to use more of my personality, which is still somewhat (and still too much) dysfunctional. But I become increasingly better at improving that.

[Icare dixit]

Disregarding what someone writes because that person is "manic" or manic, is of course very bad, toxic or dangerous behaviour. In that way, this thread is truly a continuation of the previous, deleted Unethical? thread.

Mania should neither be an excuse or a reason for disqualification.

Homeland comes to mind, as an example. But I'm sure we all have examples of our own.

[Icare dixit]

And yes, delusions can spread.

Like Jedi mind tricks. It's the beauty of conviction.

If they know you might be manic, it might not work, of course. Even if it should.

[Icare dixit]

Someone who is crazy, can't be right. That would disrupt the

. Make us reflect on our darker side.

[Icare dixit]

" (...) the only thing you can't do is ignore [us]. Because [we] change things. [We] move the human race forward. (...) "

But you can make a joke out of it.

It's your choice which gospel to believe, to be enslaved or liberated.

[pirilin]

I have a question................ah, forgot............................... But it's a bump!!!.

[BeyondtheRainbow]

This is the opposite of how I see this.

I do not choose to be ill. I fight very hard to be wel but often don't succeed.

I cannot distance myself from my illness but in controlling it I can succeed. If I distanced myself from it my self-care would cause me to fail at everything I haven't already failed at.

There is no way that doing anything but fighting against the bipolar is going to give me direction or stability.

Bipolar is not my friend nor is it something to seek out and enhance in any way.

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Ok, I might also elaborate. Here goes.

We can choose (as well as be forced to) to end mania, but we risk a very big impact on our sanity, bigger than if we'd continue.

We can choose (as well as be forced to) become depressed, going on without it, but we risk chronic insanity.

If we take the risk of having depression and mania, we might actually accomplish something we want to accomplish. If we distance ourselves from our emotions and don't want anything, we might have better chances of staying alive.

If we allow more of our manic-depressive behaviour into our personality (arguably/probably it is a choice you have to make early on), we risk being chronically dysfunctional, but we may have more direction and stability.

[smallwonderer]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheRainbow

This is the opposite of how I see this.

I do not choose to be ill. I fight very hard to be wel but often don't succeed.

I cannot distance myself from my illness but in controlling it I can succeed. If I distanced myself from it my self-care would cause me to fail at everything I haven't already failed at.

There is no way that doing anything but fighting against the bipolar is going to give me direction or stability.

Bipolar is not my friend nor is it something to seek out and enhance in any way.

I agree with this. To fight to be stable is not self-loathing over bipolar, it's just saying feeling good when manic is not the same as feeling good when stable. When I am manic, it's easy for me to convince myself that my manic way of being is more 'authentic' but I don't feel that way the rest of the time and am usually frustrated with things I did when manic. So I think the solution is to avoid mania where possible because it makes it too hard to have to handle the fallout from decisions made in another state of mind.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheRainbow

This is the opposite of how I see this.

I do not choose to be ill. I fight very hard to be wel but often don't succeed.

I cannot distance myself from my illness but in controlling it I can succeed. If I distanced myself from it my self-care would cause me to fail at everything I haven't already failed at.

There is no way that doing anything but fighting against the bipolar is going to give me direction or stability.

Bipolar is not my friend nor is it something to seek out and enhance in any way.

That might work best for you. It might not, I wouldn't be able to tell.

I am not saying one "strategy" is better than the other. Distancing from emotions (something that should really be part of your personality somehow, maybe, to be able to use it) and going on without depression can be worse than depression. Easily. But not always.

It's just realising that depression might be a good thing allows you to feel a little better being depressed and allows you to spend that time being depressed more constructively. It is a paradoxical thing depression. Just always fighting it might not be the best option. Timing is everything: stop fighting, make it feel more comfortable and just think with some Stoicism and focus, then only if you feel you can win, start the fight. A balancing act is required, I very much believe, for something so paradoxical, good and bad.

Maybe try to see the full dynamics, different stages of depression requiring opposing behaviours.

I just give alternative choices here. In any way you know you have a choice (so not feeling, because that can be deceptive, of course), try the alternatives, I'd suggest. You don't know what'll help beforehand. I didn't. And the right choice changes with time.

Seeing it as an illness is probably the least damaging. I wouldn't recommend it, but I see how it can help and you could argue it is, easily, it's just the implications of that assessment which might be wrong.

Thanks for your perspective.