[btladtf9890]

Originally Posted by Roaming_bird

As a newbie who has posted a lot, it's hard not to take offense at this thread. I'm sorry I post too much. I'm sorry I'm not entertaining as the old posters.

If you find it's dull, post something.

And perhaps it isn't the limelight we're seeking. Maybe we post a lot because this is the first time we felt like we've been able to talk about our illness in a supportive environment.

I agree with you. However, I don't find this forum particularly supportive. Maybe once you aren't a newbie, you don't feel like some lost dog that wondered into a strange neighborhood. I guess this is probably my last post; but I can't seem to find any position here that is comfortable.

Originally Posted by btladtf9890

I agree with you. However, I don't find this forum particularly supportive. Maybe once you aren't a newbie, you don't feel like some lost dog that wondered into a strange neighborhood. I guess this is probably my last post; but I can't seem to find any position here that is comfortable.

You have made 11 posts.

[Victoria'smom]

I'm mostly lurking. Why? I have no idea.

Hugs all around.
I'm sorry to hear that anyone feels shy about posting for whatever reason. It's ok. Post.

Like BP, these things cycle. We hit a rough patch, but then come back up again. Stick around and you will see. Different personalities come and go. Some we can relate to, some we can't. That's ok. We're not always at our best. All we can do is try.

I'll be the first to admit that I can be...well, a little wordy. It's an issue for me. And it might be a little too obvious that I have nowhere else to talk. Balance and social skills are not my strong suits. But if even one person can feel heard, or relate, or even get a laugh, it's all good.

So! To anyone who feels like remember -- it might be YOU that puts something good in someone's day! But we'll never know if you don't post, right?

Originally Posted by btladtf9890

I agree with you. However, I don't find this forum particularly supportive. Maybe once you aren't a newbie, you don't feel like some lost dog that wondered into a strange neighborhood. I guess this is probably my last post; but I can't seem to find any position here that is comfortable.

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

You have made 11 posts.

No number of posts will save you from Valentina.

What I meant was, it takes a lot more than 11 posts to feel like you fit in or find your place. Give it time.

[ologist]

I think this is a strange thread.

I am not a newbie rather I mainly read, not post. This thread would be more encouraging, to me at least, if it did not have snark aimed at a particular poster or someone opining about the "worst kind" of newbies. My 2c worth.

[hahayeahtotallylol]

Originally Posted by Imah

NO - I hurt a lot of innocent people.

ive seen worse, friend.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by venusss

I may find you yet interesting. [Phew!: all be blessed!]

[...]

To me worst kind of newbies are those that assume they know your story (because all bipolars are the same, right?) and jump on you with their "advice" right off, telling you how delusional you are because you are doing something out of the mainstream **** they ready about in bipolar for dummies or on wikipedia. They usually last few posts though and leave with "oh, I thought you were looking for help and support, but if you don't do the generic standard route, it's not place for me".

I clearly overreacted to this thread yesterday.

But I feel very strongly about people being divisive or stigmatising in minority groups that are themselves stigmatised: it is the worst, in my book.

I'd rather be over-inclusive any day.

I agree that anyone should find their own particular ways to deal with their problems, but we—in a way—just are very similar.

If anyone feels uncomfortable with that, that is their problem. Not anyone else's. Looking for similarities is what connects us.

You may group people to attack them or to embrace them.

I annotated your post to emphasise my point: singling out people is not a healthy, constructive exercise. It is sarcastic, but isn't aimed at you as person. It just helps to illustrate a point. You are not as good or bad as what you do, from how I see it.

I very like that you maintain your autonomy, individuality and don't feel afraid to have a dissenting views. You suggest/people to look differently at problems from the "mainstream", as you put it.

It is just the how, very much asserting your differences from others, less so the similarities, that is not always healthy psychologically/mentally, I think. It doesn't sound like someone that's at peace with themselves.

Just a thought, call it advice, given because I am just like you: human.

Being human, I could also be very wrong, naturally.

I hope we never single out anyone here, no matter what they do (other than attacking people like this). We all rather live on the edge: it's precarious and we don't want to push someone over it, I hope.

No-one has the edge over anyone, here. We all give and receive advice from our own experience: some of it helpful, some less so.

No-one likes to be edged out of any group. In our case it could really be dangerous to the person involved.

[Icare dixit]

Imah, I don't think there is any lasting harm done.

It just made us reflect on ourselves, I guess. In my case, definitely. Always good—in moderation.

For me, the (apparent) assertiveness with which I sometimes tend to give advice or try to rally people to together solve some major problems in advancing BP treatment, at least gave me pause.

I do believe we can only and must fight this battle as one, but we should allow for everyone's personal battle. We must first help ourselves.

But I truly believe we can't afford to be exclusive. Ever. This forum matters not, it is the people that use it to feel free and accepted (maybe for once).

[ComfortablyNumb5]

Originally Posted by Roaming_bird

As a newbie who has posted a lot, it's hard not to take offense at this thread. I'm sorry I post too much. I'm sorry I'm not entertaining as the old posters.

If you find it's dull, post something.

And perhaps it isn't the limelight we're seeking. Maybe we post a lot because this is the first time we felt like we've been able to talk about our illness in a supportive environment.

Please don't be upset. I look at you as a friend here and I don't want you chased away. But I do get how you're offended with the "limelight" thing. I find that either new people are really lost and need a lot of support and ask more questions (which should be encouraged!) or they are too shy to post at all. But your posts always make sense and add valid questions to the board. Don't get discouraged from what one person says. I almost tossed in the towel a few wks ago over a nasty reply to one of my posts but I just move along.

This forum is for support and to some of us it's all we have. So if someone's going to speak negatively then they should just not say anything at all. First rule of manners we learn as children. Shouldn't be hard people!

In my eyes and many others, you're all welcome! The more people, the more support. And i value the relationships I've made along the way. Whether they're new or old!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ComfortablyNumb5]

Sorry for "high jacking" the thread but now I'm curious. What posts are setting you guys off or aren't "interesting" anymore? I'll be the first to admit I post a lot. But I try to make them reasonable questions and concerns sticking to the matter of BP. I'm always scared I'm posting too much so now I'm curious if I'm part of the annoyance here? A part of me posts a lot, trying to keep the forum alive and give people something to think about. However I have seen posts on here where people just vent over and over about a totally different topic. That does get to me at times. I just hope I'm not the one that's like that? Please, if any of this is referring to me then let me know. I'd probably be so embarrassed I wouldn't come back though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[venusss]

I hope we never single out anyone here, no matter what they do (other than attacking people like this). We all rather live on the edge: it's precarious and we don't want to push someone over it, I hope.

I meant mostly one particular thing. There is small number of unmedicated folks here. And we do mostly well. So we don't appreciate when somebody new comes to us and tells us that we need to go back on our meds or we will die.

Or there is a poster who has been complaining about their doctor for long time, for a reason and then somebody comes and says they need to trust their doctor.... because you need to trust your doctor, because he is a doctor.

Or something equally lame. It happened few times.

Surely, maybe these people mean well... but some go in "you are delusional!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111" mode based on the fact somebody does not follow the regular docs and meds and Ts route... or if they do anything out there.

I have been recently adviced psychiatrist for issue that is mix of geopolitics and trauma, lol. Again, I see the good intention, but with five years of membership and thousands of posts.... you really think I never thought of the first obvious solution to being crazy?

[venusss]

Originally Posted by RxQueen875

Sorry for "high jacking" the thread but now I'm curious. What posts are setting you guys off or aren't "interesting" anymore? I'll be the first to admit I post a lot. But I try to make them reasonable questions and concerns sticking to the matter of BP. I'm always scared I'm posting too much so now I'm curious if I'm part of the annoyance here? A part of me posts a lot, trying to keep the forum alive and give people something to think about. However I have seen posts on here where people just vent over and over about a totally different topic. That does get to me at times. I just hope I'm not the one that's like that? Please, if any of this is referring to me then let me know. I'd probably be so embarrassed I wouldn't come back though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I actually miss the times when this forum was not strictly about our "illness". Might be the sentimental part of me, but maybe we need to bring back poetry and lusting threads.

And there used to be much more debate at one point, in a good way.

[gina_re]

Originally Posted by Imah

I have been a member only since 2014, but I have seen a common amount of people on this page. That amount is slowly going down.

Rhetorical questions to ask ourselves:

Are we continuing to contribute to threads in a helpful, offering, and generous manner, remembering that we are dealing with a variety of people?

I am sorry to see in the last 3 months a steady decline of people. At this time there are 40. There used to be a minimum of approx. 70. Last month I saw 50 for an average low. So the decline is increasing.

Let us try to share honestly, not overwhelm others with every thought (I do this occasionally) and make this a place for all to unload and uplift.

I'll admit that I have not read every single reply to this thread, but I did have to take a few days off from this forum after being here every day. I was offended by some posts. It is not the same. Lately it seems very unsupportive and people are just being catty with each other. I don't like this. It is the first time I have had to put someone on an ignore list. This place was my sanctuary. And now I feel I can't post for fear of being torn apart. I pick and choose what I can read because the threads are just crazy now. I used to read EVERYTHING and feel like I can't anymore. That is not what this community is for. I'm not saying we need to baby each other and hide our true feelings. But the Bipolar community I remember here is supportive with constructive criticism, not being mean. Those who have been around longer I think understand what I am saying. Also, newer members should not feel like they should not post. That defeats the purpose of this forum. But we just need to be nicer to everyone, and if you don't have anything nice to say, please keep it to yourself. We all obviously have some emotional and mood issues. We don't need the fighting as well.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by venusss

I meant mostly one particular thing. There is small number of unmedicated folks here. And we do mostly well. So we don't appreciate when somebody new comes to us and tells us that we need to go back on our meds or we will die.

Or there is a poster who has been complaining about their doctor for long time, for a reason and then somebody comes and says they need to trust their doctor.... because you need to trust your doctor, because he is a doctor.

Or something equally lame. It happened few times.

Surely, maybe these people mean well... but some go in "you are delusional!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111" mode based on the fact somebody does not follow the regular docs and meds and Ts route... or if they do anything out there.

I have been recently adviced psychiatrist for issue that is mix of geopolitics and trauma, lol. Again, I see the good intention, but with five years of membership and thousands of posts.... you really think I never thought of the first obvious solution to being crazy?

I totally (as far as such a thing is possible) see where you are coming from.

The scientific community and clinicians are many times totally at a loss how to help or just understand us, other than prescribing meds they just found out by much trail-and-error or outside influences/suggestions (being still too proud to admit them) that work (always just really effectively) for a subgroup.

They have little interest in finding essential divisions in those diagnosed with anything, because it would only create more complexity and more niches to market meds to.

I fully agree that one (given the right circumstances) can manage without meds. Brain toxicity I posit as a big causative factor in predisposing people to psychosis/mania (it is a fairly safe bet as well; I am not at all some great genius to have come up with, or agreed with, that), but excitation is a big part (and for some maybe the only/major) of that toxicity: anxiety, fear, impulsivity, overactivity and too little in the diet to protect against them.

All those may very well be manageable without meds. But some other toxicity and some underlying (psychotic) causes really need to be treated by medication.

I do think that there comes a time for (next to) everyone that meds are no longer necessary. Dependent on genetic and biochemical factors, supplements might still be.

Apart from psychological intervention, such things as caffeine and nicotine might just be enough.

But, again, I admire your unwavering stance. It is sometimes sorely needed here (and in society at large).

Even though you might not like it (I wouldn't know): .

[raspberrytorte]

I like new people. I like reading new stories.

[Icare dixit]

I post this separately, because they are mostly asides which might have value to someone without my longer post and reply to venusss that precedes it.

So, as maybe an aside, now: I agree/think that calling anyone who is stable/non-psychotic (or at any time, really; even if you are) can be very harmful. Doing it retrospectively when warranted is a different story, of course: might help immensely.

As a (complete) aside: I do think withdrawal from meds should be far more gradual than is customary (as in decades in some cases, maybe even started just after you began taking them). It gives many helpful meds a bad rep. They do (wouldn't go so far as to say absolutely all do) protect your brain. Quick withdrawal can jeopardise all that: cause renewed or worse brain excitation/excitotoxicity

And: really give generics a fair try first. As mentioned before, there is little use in having pharmaceutical companies (sometimes aided by clinicians) reinvent the wheel for profit. Let them focus on understanding what works and what doesn't—and why—first. Then meds can truly be made less harmful or inconvenient, not just very tentatively at first glance.

[venusss]

As a (complete) aside: I do think withdrawal from meds should be far more gradual than is customary (as in decades in some cases, maybe even started just after you began taking them). It gives many helpful meds a bad rep. They do (wouldn't go so far as to say absolutely all do) protect your brain. Quick withdrawal can jeopardise all that: cause renewed or worse brain excitation/excitotoxicity

Does it give meds bad name? I usually see people use it as a proof they are really THAT ill and they NEED meds.

If the meds are so helpful, they wouldn't have such hellish withdrawal and you wouldn't feel worse than before after skipping few doses, imho.

Of course, doctors often don't talk about how bad the withdrawal can be, that accidentally skipping dose and feeling bad is proof of withdrawal, not state of your well being...

Do they protect your brain? All I know some APs cause brain atrophy, quite the opposite of protecting your brain. Many meds have "stupids" as side effect. How do they protect it, if you feel slowed down on them?

So, as maybe an aside, now: I agree/think that calling anyone who is stable/non-psychotic (or at any time, really; even if you are) can be very harmful. Doing it retrospectively when warranted is a different story, of course: might help immensely.

I don't really understand this bit.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by venusss

Does it give meds bad name? I usually see people use it as a proof they are really THAT ill and they NEED meds.

If the meds are so helpful, they wouldn't have such hellish withdrawal and you wouldn't feel worse than before after skipping few doses, imho.

Of course, doctors often don't talk about how bad the withdrawal can be, that accidentally skipping dose and feeling bad is proof of withdrawal, not state of your well being...

Do they protect your brain? All I know some APs cause brain atrophy, quite the opposite of protecting your brain. Many meds have "stupids" as side effect. How do they protect it, if you feel slowed down on them?



I don't really understand this bit.

Great post! I actually wanted to add that about people staying on them because of paradoxical effects from withdrawal. It is definitely used by some/many doctors and patients alike to promote submission to lifelong use, acceptance of lifelong dependence and to view med use as somehow normal or desired.

However, I think a small majority sees it as something necessarily associated with some medications and therefore they see it as being something only negative.

This forum is (most likely) not representative of everyone treated or untreated but diagnosed with a psychotic disorder (or having all symptoms). Per se, many, and possibly many more, are either in denial or have found other, some completely positive, ways to cope and see us as mere sheep.

Paradoxical effects from withdrawal of meds in perfectly normal. It is like taking the train to work or cycling to work: you will quite possibly feel better after some time of cycling, but at first you may feel really bad. The train, however, is not to blame for you feeling bad.

It is not particularly bad either, if you have asthma, for example. Loss of oxygen can be very unhealthy. Med withdrawal problems can be very much eliminated by slow, gradual withdrawal. Asthma may become manageable when you are exercise despite great problems at first. Just take it (very) slowly.

This analogy might not be perfect, but the takeaway is simple: of course you do worse after you lose something that helped you before. It might be better to be less dependent, but that doesn't make it easy, just worthwhile.

The antipsychotics work (maybe purely: it just is very hard to tell exactly what they, indirectly, do) by treating symptoms, sometimes called the endophenotype, but by doing so they cause a relief of a few forms of toxicity. In as far as they may cause brain atrophy this is of course working against that. However, the positives can (and tend to certainly for chronic forms of (pre-)psychosis/mania) outweigh the negatives.

Even just feeling slowed down can relieve stress on the brain, just by your behaviour alone. By slowing down specific activity in the brain it can (and does if they are needed) relieve your brain of further stress and other forms of toxicity, for example by stimulating (or, more directly, increasing) detoxification.

Mood stabilisers (including anticonvulsants) tend to work on symptoms as well as directly on detoxification.

If I were to choose between antipsychotics or mood stabilisers for long-term, prophylactic treatment, having only problems when unstable/manic/depressed, I would choose a mood stabiliser monotherapy any day. If it were just the case that I got called delusional all the time, without any problems in functioning: a mood stabiliser only. Only some "background" hallucinations: no antipsychotic.

But my chronic delusions really make it hard to function, so I use an antipsychotic in polytherapy. Hopefully sooner rather than later, I use none of the usual meds. Mileages vary. Conditions apply. As you often like to point out yourself.

Edit:
About calling someone delusional if you disagree: harmful. Then some caveats. Nor really important: thinking out loud. Or rather, it is about whether you should tell someone who is delusional that she or he is. I think not (or, again, gradually). Tell them they could just as well take an antipsychotic, since they are not delusional. And later tell them they (probably) were delusional. Again: thinking out loud. Not a response as such, really.

Another edit:
Basically, when considering atrophy versus toxicity: don't underuse and don't overuse. Psychosis may lead to underuse of key cortical brain areas, lack of excitation, fear or anxiety may lead to underuse of subcortical areas. Psychosis may lead to overuse in subcortical areas, anxiety (etc.) lead to overuse of cortical areas.

Another caveat, in similar vein: hepatic and renal toxicity can result from med use.

You can't win without some losses. It's all balancing probabilities and looking for more certainty. There is so much we don't know.

Some supplements, nicotine and caffeine, fish or other sources of good fatty acids, however, can be rather safe bets. Though there renal issues may arise as well by overuse.

Too much neuroprotection may lead to mutated/cancerous cell proliferation... and the list goes on.

[venusss]

About calling someone delusional if you disagree: harmful. Then some caveats. Nor really important: thinking out loud. Or rather, it is about whether you should tell someone who is delusional that she or he is. I think not (or, again, gradually). Tell them they could just as well take an antipsychotic, since they are not delusional. And later tell them they (probably) were delusional. Again: thinking out loud. Not a response as such, really.

Imho, you can judge such thing only in person you know well.

Like, if I tell you about my life briefly, you'll think i am delusional with all the "paranoia" and throwing myself into things.

Also, not everything is psychiatric delusion. Sometimes it's more skewed thinking. Or cognitive distortion... I didn't study psychology. But I have MA in International relations and let me tell you, history was build on mistakes coming from cognitive distortions... but there are other ways to explain them than broken brain, chemical imbalances and all that.
Thinking that asshole is awesome guy is common mistake. "This might be a good idea" thinking happens to many.

Gah, read some political debate and you can go and diagnose everybody as delusional. What is straight thinking? What is viewing the reality as it is? Imho, "common sense" is often just a delusion shared by majority.

[Roaming_bird]

Originally Posted by Imah

Roaming Bird, I have enjoyed all your posts. In fact, my issue should never have been to make a post that everyone with a little insecurity would think I was talking about them. I do that too - always think I should be a little nicer, or a littler whatever. No, I had 1 problem, with 1 person that I have been trying to deal with since Jan. I mentioned it to a friend, then I mentioned it to another person, then I avoided coming here, then I tried to deal with it, then I tried to talk to a moderator, then I just snapped. I wrote this, then I decided it was a little okay to lose my temper, and I wrote them directly, harshly, and I got off the comp. then I banged around the house, then I talked to my husband, then I busted into tears, and then I felt better.

For nearly 2 months this hasn't been a place of sanctuary for me because I have lost some financial luxuries due to my mental illness and I felt like someone wasn't talking other peoples feelings into consideration.

Of course the truth is, I was just jealous of what they have.

Anyway, I came here tonight to take my lumps and get it over with for being rude, and instead I found I have made the wrong people think I was talking about them.

I am sorry. I should have handled the problem directly in the first place instead of trying to be subtle by writing this. NO - I hurt a lot of innocent people. We need to communicate with each other - especially we need to be able to come here and share with each other when we are having difficulty.

I hope no one that has responded to this post stops sharing as much as they were. I don't want to say who it was - that drama played out on another thread. But it wasn't anyone here.

Sorry.

No apologies needed. I'm too sensitive sometimes.

[Roaming_bird]

Originally Posted by Imah

Roaming Bird, I have enjoyed all your posts. In fact, my issue should never have been to make a post that everyone with a little insecurity would think I was talking about them. I do that too - always think I should be a little nicer, or a littler whatever. No, I had 1 problem, with 1 person that I have been trying to deal with since Jan. I mentioned it to a friend, then I mentioned it to another person, then I avoided coming here, then I tried to deal with it, then I tried to talk to a moderator, then I just snapped. I wrote this, then I decided it was a little okay to lose my temper, and I wrote them directly, harshly, and I got off the comp. then I banged around the house, then I talked to my husband, then I busted into tears, and then I felt better.

For nearly 2 months this hasn't been a place of sanctuary for me because I have lost some financial luxuries due to my mental illness and I felt like someone wasn't talking other peoples feelings into consideration.

Of course the truth is, I was just jealous of what they have.

Anyway, I came here tonight to take my lumps and get it over with for being rude, and instead I found I have made the wrong people think I was talking about them.

I am sorry. I should have handled the problem directly in the first place instead of trying to be subtle by writing this. NO - I hurt a lot of innocent people. We need to communicate with each other - especially we need to be able to come here and share with each other when we are having difficulty.

I hope no one that has responded to this post stops sharing as much as they were. I don't want to say who it was - that drama played out on another thread. But it wasn't anyone here.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by gina_re

I'll admit that I have not read every single reply to this thread, but I did have to take a few days off from this forum after being here every day. I was offended by some posts. It is not the same. Lately it seems very unsupportive and people are just being catty with each other. I don't like this. It is the first time I have had to put someone on an ignore list. This place was my sanctuary. And now I feel I can't post for fear of being torn apart. I pick and choose what I can read because the threads are just crazy now. I used to read EVERYTHING and feel like I can't anymore. That is not what this community is for. I'm not saying we need to baby each other and hide our true feelings. But the Bipolar community I remember here is supportive with constructive criticism, not being mean. Those who have been around longer I think understand what I am saying. Also, newer members should not feel like they should not post. That defeats the purpose of this forum. But we just need to be nicer to everyone, and if you don't have anything nice to say, please keep it to yourself. We all obviously have some emotional and mood issues. We don't need the fighting as well.

I wish those who have been hurt peace. And yes, we need to be kind to each other. It may seem like it's ok to write hurtful things because this is "online", but there are real people here behind the type written words.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by venusss

Imho, you can judge such thing only in person you know well.

Like, if I tell you about my life briefly, you'll think i am delusional with all the "paranoia" and throwing myself into things.

Also, not everything is psychiatric delusion. Sometimes it's more skewed thinking. Or cognitive distortion... I didn't study psychology. But I have MA in International relations and let me tell you, history was build on mistakes coming from cognitive distortions... but there are other ways to explain them than broken brain, chemical imbalances and all that.
Thinking that asshole is awesome guy is common mistake. "This might be a good idea" thinking happens to many.

Gah, read some political debate and you can go and diagnose everybody as delusional. What is straight thinking? What is viewing the reality as it is? Imho, "common sense" is often just a delusion shared by majority.

I totally agree with most and especially the "common sense", or just really just that: common sense, bit.

And I would say common senses.

I am a monistic mystic like that (which might go much further than what you believe/say): basically I believe the brain itself is a common, pervading, hallucination. The believe in it (a part of) a/the common delusion. The thing itself we share, but the way it works differs from person to person. Psychotic? I think so. Am I? Not according to the DSM/ICD. No functional impairment. Fair enough. But aren't we all functionally impaired? I would definitely think so.

Majority rule.

At least we can "step out" of it and better reflect on it. Seeing what could be. Relatively speaking: we all can and do to different degrees.

Oh man, I am delusional! Gladly.

Edit:
Ok, I have to say it: didn't expect that, aye?

And I am definitely not the only scientist who assumes, presupposes, this.

It explains a lot.

[Icare dixit]

Maybe a bit ill-timed with all the reconciliation going on...

But this thread reminds me of

.