[Altinak]

I've been wondering this for a few days and I do not want anybody to take offense.. I've began to see how my reactions and actions can and have caused manipulative behavior BUT completely by accident. Also, how much more easily I am to manipulate than others than I know.

So the two questions I would like to ask are these.

1. Do you think people with BPD are manipulative sometimes, but by complete accident or rather, do not realise or intend the manipulation occuring.

2. Do think people with BPD are a lot more easily manipulative, possibly due to the lack of sense of self.

Any insights would be interesting.

Thank you

[Ithilanar]

Hey Altinak.
I have been a bit mixed about the whole manipulation thing, but I have to agree that yes, borderlines are manipulative. The problem with the word 'manipulation' is that I find it to define someone who intentionally plans something and acts it out in a dishonest way.

So to your first question, I am definitely convinced that the manipulation you might experience is not intentional but rather a really desperate way for the borderline to gain someone's attention or approval and just don't have the skills to do it in an unobtrusive manner.

I think that borderlines 'manipulate' because of a very huge lack of sense of self, yes. I know that when I acted out of line I did it because I was desperate not to lose that person and I was desperate for a reaction. I didn't feel solid or stable inside and would easily panic. I also believe I said a lot of things that were rather 'delusional' just to keep that person in check and have control over them so I could feel safe. I just think people with borderline tend to do everything they can to find stability, which just isn't working because of our trust issues.

Hope that helped any.

[Altinak]

That actually made a lot of sense, thank you

I'm not always intentionally manipulative but sometimes I am.

Manipulative behavior, unfotuntately is kind of a grey area in my opinion. Yes I agree I can at times be manipulative but I'm not so quick to tag this as BPD. In my mind, people in general live to manipulate others in some form. Go to the sales floor at an auto dealership and you'll see quite a lot of manipulation. You want someone to side with you in an argument, you try to sway them in your favor. The list goes on... Don't be too hard on yourself with that.

I just have a hard time believing this is unique to BPD.

[Cryptic.]

1. Do you think people with BPD are manipulative sometimes, but by complete accident or rather, do not realise or intend the manipulation occuring?

As a severe sufferer of BPD, I can see too how certain behaviors can PERCEIVE to others as manipulative, however, others may misjudge the intentions behind certain behaviors, see other motives, when really, it's not being manipulative at all.

Examples being;

A) After an argument/fall out/break up, you say you feel like hurting yourself, wanting to end your life
- people may see that as emotional blackmail for the other person to make up with you/get back together/etc, and manipulating people into doing so by expressing intentions on harming yourself.

However, the intentions are incredibly different.

For me at least, I don't say or express that to get the person back.

I say it due to the extreme emotions I am dealing with every single second,
and due to the external stimuli, like a bad break up or argument,
it makes these emotions all the more intense and uncontrollable,
so you automatically feel like you HAVE to do something to make it stop
- you don't do it to make the person feel guilty and come back to you etc,
you do it because you're suffering and struggling so intensely,
that you need relief, so you self harm,
or you try and kill yourself because the PAIN is too much
- not to threaten the other person or blackmail or manipulate them.

See what I mean?
Intentions are complete polar opposites.
It's all about intentions.
The reason behind it.

It may LOOK like manipulation, or blackmail,
but in reality, in our reality, it is nothing of the sort
- it is to seek relief through self harm,
or it is to end the pain through suicide.


2. Do think people with BPD are a lot more easily manipulative, possibly due to the lack of sense of self?

I don't believe this is true.

I think there are a certain few who may have other difficulties alongside BPD which can cause manipulative behaviors,
but people with BPD more commonly aren't actually manipulative at all,
it may come across as so,
but it is completely different,
as the above example proves.

[Altinak]

Thanks Cryptic, that actually made a bucket load of sense. I do this also, especially in arguements or brink of break ups. It's not so the other person stays, but its because I'm trapped in this whirl of intense emotion.

[Cryptic.]

Exactly

Glad I made some sense lol!

[MoxieDoxie]

How are BPD manipulative with their Therapists? What exactly does one do to be manipulative with a T and for what reason. I do find myself finding reasons to email inorder to elicit a response of any kind.

[doglover1979]

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

How are BPD manipulative with their Therapists? What exactly does one do to be manipulative with a T and for what reason. I do find myself finding reasons to email inorder to elicit a response of any kind.

I tried to get my therapist to put me into a partial hospital program because I was really, really scared of approaching a big obstacle in life. I didn't see it as a manipulation at the time, but I do now. She saw right through it and refused.

That's part of the problem with having a DBT therapist, she treats borderlines all day. She knows exactly what I'm up to when I do things like that, even when I don't know myself.

[IndieVisible]

I think any one can be manipulative. Intentional and unintentional. At least most people. The question should really be how do BPD manipulate differently then others and for what reasons.

[HealingNSuffering]

Originally Posted by Altinak

I've been wondering this for a few days and I do not want anybody to take offense.. I've began to see how my reactions and actions can and have caused manipulative behavior BUT completely by accident. Also, how much more easily I am to manipulate than others than I know.

So the two questions I would like to ask are these.

1. Do you think people with BPD are manipulative sometimes, but by complete accident or rather, do not realise or intend the manipulation occuring.

2. Do think people with BPD are a lot more easily manipulative, possibly due to the lack of sense of self.

Any insights would be interesting.

Thank you

Yes, not on purpose though. We do it unconsciously not with the intent of hurting anybody. I think people with BPD are generally pretty honest, but with the possibility of punishment we can be manipulative.

Personally I'm too honest I only lie under threats of punishment.

[GeorgiaGirl413]

Originally Posted by Altinak

I've been wondering this for a few days and I do not want anybody to take offense.. I've began to see how my reactions and actions can and have caused manipulative behavior BUT completely by accident. Also, how much more easily I am to manipulate than others than I know.

So the two questions I would like to ask are these.

1. Do you think people with BPD are manipulative sometimes, but by complete accident or rather, do not realise or intend the manipulation occuring.

2. Do think people with BPD are a lot more easily manipulative, possibly due to the lack of sense of self.

Any insights would be interesting.

Thank you

Persons with BPD are manipulative much of the time. The thing is, we are generally unaware of what we are doing. It takes stepping back and looking at the situation through non-emotional eyes to see it. Also, we don't at all like being told that our behavior is manipulative. Good for you for recognizing this. I think it's the first step in doing better.

[GeorgiaGirl413]

Originally Posted by Ithilanar

Hey Altinak.
I have been a bit mixed about the whole manipulation thing, but I have to agree that yes, borderlines are manipulative. The problem with the word 'manipulation' is that I find it to define someone who intentionally plans something and acts it out in a dishonest way.

So to your first question, I am definitely convinced that the manipulation you might experience is not intentional but rather a really desperate way for the borderline to gain someone's attention or approval and just don't have the skills to do it in an unobtrusive manner.

I think that borderlines 'manipulate' because of a very huge lack of sense of self, yes. I know that when I acted out of line I did it because I was desperate not to lose that person and I was desperate for a reaction. I didn't feel solid or stable inside and would easily panic. I also believe I said a lot of things that were rather 'delusional' just to keep that person in check and have control over them so I could feel safe. I just think people with borderline tend to do everything they can to find stability, which just isn't working because of our trust issues.

Hope that helped any.

you said it wonderfully

[GeorgiaGirl413]

Originally Posted by doglover1979

I tried to get my therapist to put me into a partial hospital program because I was really, really scared of approaching a big obstacle in life. I didn't see it as a manipulation at the time, but I do now. She saw right through it and refused.

That's part of the problem with having a DBT therapist, she treats borderlines all day. She knows exactly what I'm up to when I do things like that, even when I don't know myself.

You betcha!!! We see it in others on these forums too. We just can't really day anything most of the time as that is not supportive. If we could just see ourselves as clearly as we see others.

[BlueInanna]

Still learning about bpd, I really don't like they say manipulative is a symptom, makes me sad.

My older 2 teens SI, for example... they were never showy about it - I was shocked when I found out. My daughter would cut in places no one would see, then refuse & have excuses to not wear a swimsuit. And my son did it once in front of us because he'd lost total control of his emotions, it was total impulse, possibly also a manic rage. Neither of these were for attention seeking - they were impulsively dealing with intense emotional pain.

My idea is that bpd people are highly sensitive & often in emotional turmoil. So the people who care about them and want to help, have an expectation that their help should be accepted and appreciated by the bpd friend, lover, patient (client is a word I prefer), family member, etc. If said help/advice isn't followed, we don't change how they expected, or we start finally trusting & reaching out for more help we really need - they start feeling manipulated or used or taken advantage of.

Just my initial idea about it. I have more of a problem with complacency - like not wanting people mad at me, wanting to please people. Holy cow - maybe I'm being manipulative right now and don't even know it!

I give a lot of merit to the idea of manipulative behavior but at the same time I feell there is a very fine line between what manipulative behavior a bpd person does and what the rest of the world does. I'm sorry but I just feel like 99% of society is manipulative of other people period.

That being said I do realize this is a real aspect of the disorder, just not so simple to say every manipulative action you take is due to your bpd, it's hard to define IMHO.

While thinking about my own particular behaviors though of late and for various reasons that have surfaced recently I've made an inner commitment to take time to really think about the motives behind what I say and do and do everything in my power to say and do what I mean rather than not. Idk if this makes sense but in my tiny brain it does.

[HealingNSuffering]

Manipulative isn't part of the qualifications for the DSM. Perhaps it is common in those of us with Borderline PD, as is Attention deficit disorder. I blame my ADD for the BPD. I had special needs that weren't met.

Originally Posted by HealingNSuffering

Manipulative isn't part of the qualifications for the DSM. Perhaps it is common in those of us with Borderline PD, as is Attention deficit disorder. I blame my ADD for the BPD. I had special needs that weren't met.

I don't think this is so much about fitting the criteria but something that is typically common with people who have bpd. I just think it stems from some of the traits. The frantic frantic efforts to avoid abandonment (real or imagined) can result in manipulative types of behavior.

[IndieVisible]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

I give a lot of merit to the idea of manipulative behavior but at the same time I feell there is a very fine line between what manipulative behavior a bpd person does and what the rest of the world does. I'm sorry but I just feel like 99% of society is manipulative of other people period.

That being said I do realize this is a real aspect of the disorder, just not so simple to say every manipulative action you take is due to your bpd, it's hard to define IMHO.

While thinking about my own particular behaviors though of late and for various reasons that have surfaced recently I've made an inner commitment to take time to really think about the motives behind what I say and do and do everything in my power to say and do what I mean rather than not. Idk if this makes sense but in my tiny brain it does.

I agree. Everyone manipulates whether they are aware of it or not. The real question here should be how is it different from others and why does a BPD do it. I think for the most part BPD manipulates for attention almost like a NPD except for a different reason. A BPD may feel the need for reassurance or feeling loved, where as the NPD does it for admiration, or to make themselves look good. A NON may do it also for the same reasons or for different reasons. The reasons I believe are the keys and the frequencies and pattern. They will be different thru out the Cluster B and for NONs. I think there will be more distinct patterns for cluster B's then for NONs and also different reasons. So I really think the question should by why and how it differs that we should be talking about. And the key difference between cluster B's and nons will be we have a greater pattern with usually the same few reasons and greater frequencies and even predictable if you know what to look for.

[cboxpalace]

I think we all agree EVERYONE has the capability to manipulate. I also think people can manipulate knowingly or unknowingly.

All Cluster B PD's manipulate, but for different reasons.

What separates the manipulative tactics of a person with BPD and a NON is the intent/motivations behind the manipulation. I'm not sure I fully agree that a person with bpd manipulates for attention, but more to do with the need to feel liked/loved/important to the person they're manipulating. I'm fairly good at catching and preventing myself from manipulating people in this way. It's basically asking myself the question why am I doing something for someone. Am I doing it out of the goodness of my heart with no expectations in return or am I really doing it because I want the person to show me the same or similar gesture in return so I can feel liked/loved/important. If I'm expecting something in return I either change my mindset or just don't do it.

A NON is more apt to manipulate for some other reason that doesn't involve the need to feel liked/loved/important etc. I'm NOT saying though that they can't manipulate for those reasons, but more unlikely.

A person with a PD though can manipulate and the manipulation has nothing to do with their PD. The need to feel loved/liked/important is what differentiates the two forms of manipulation.

******* I'm tired so I hope that makes some sort of sense.

[IndieVisible]

Agreed except I think non's can be all over the map for reasons to manipulate. They could do it for any reason, while we in the cluster B usually have our reasons whether aware of or not. Nons can and do manipulate for any reason. Except when they do it, it's called BSing. "I BSed myself out of that speeding ticket!", "if you do this thing just this one time for me, I could spend more time with my sick grandmother", etc. When they do it they are sly and clever. When we do it, we are evil manipulators