Who Wants Help?

If most vets are like me, they're going to resist meds for treatment of ptsd, resist being drugged up ... that's another element of being out of control, and we already feel like we're not enough in control.

And we're going to resist working with shrinks - especially those who have never stepped across the LD (Line of Departure) into combat. And, like, how many shrinks every even visited a battle zone, much less were shot at or wounded, much less shot at the enemy or fought hand to hand? They are probably non existent.

Is combat ptsd like other kinds of ptsd?

There might be some connection to the single incident or a few incidents type ptsd and the ptsd experienced by soldiers.

A writer in ptsdforum.org points out that soldiers are trained for ptsd ... and the incidents are long-term, a series of ongoing trauma, day after day.

My own combat was months at a time of 24 hours hypervigilence, sometimes flying into the middle of a fire fight, but more often sneaking up on a fight, knowing that the enemy was watching or that we were watching him, creeping through the jungle waiting for the trees to explode.

How can you even tell a non combat veteran about any of this? It's easier to just tell them it was a "walk in the park" -- why burden them with any of the horrors we've seen?

(((((((( Troy ))))))))))

In life outside of being a soldier and going to war, does any therapist need to have experienced for example a rape, a mugging, a home fire, physical abuse in order to help their patient work through the ptsd and the trauma? I don't think so. Therapists are trained in the way the brain functions and have tried and true resources in helping an individual with their ptsd and trauma.

I've heard many folks say that if someone hasn't been through the same thing they went through then no one could possibly understand or help them. Personally, I don't think that is 100% right. People who have empathy and compassion, people who can draw on other personal experiences that might give 1/5th of the same kind of feeling and emotion one is going through can certainly assist and be helpful as therapists who are well trained in working with ptsd and/or trauma can also help.

Everyone's experiences are their own to feel. No one can crawl into our minds and our bodies to experience exactly what we experience. Many can have similar responses to similar experiences but we still cannot know exactly how it make another feel or think.

If you must talk in order to heal, then it is never a burden to listen to the horrors you have experienced and are trying to heal from. Granted, not everyone is in the place of being able to listen or lend a shoulder or help with the outcome of what you have experienced. But a trained therapist certainly can teach you the tools you need to help yourself.


sabby

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Troy said:
If most vets are like me, they're going to resist meds for treatment of ptsd, resist being drugged up ... that's another element of being out of control, and we already feel like we're not enough in control.

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Bravo for you. I also avoid drugs.

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Troy said:
]And we're going to resist working with shrinks - especially those who have never stepped across the LD (Line of Departure) into combat. And, like, how many shrinks every even visited a battle zone, much less were shot at or wounded, much less shot at the enemy or fought hand to hand? They are probably non existent.

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There are a few shrinks (mental health professionals) that have seen the horrors of war. But I don't think that a shrink needs to have seen those horrors to be an effective helper to someone who is suffering with PTSD. There's all kinds of help out there. The question is whether or not the person suffering with PTSD is willing to find a type of help that works for him/her.

I have PTSD from sexual assault. I don't know if my counselors were ever sexually assaulted. I had a few that I care not to ever see again. But two of the counselors were very experienced at listening and PATIENT with me. I think patience is the most important criteria for helping someone who is suffering ... especially because no one really helps you get better ... you help you get better ... the role of the counselor is to BE THERE FOR YOU, symbolically hold your hand, be your cheerleader, be there for when you are a mess and break down and say awful words, LISTEN, WATCH, WAIT. I also think a good counselor will make you laugh because laughter is the most therapeutic drug. That's my opinion. (I'm in awe I just wrote that without too much thought. I've struggled with therapy for a few years, never quite understanding it. But now I do!)

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Troy said:
Is combat ptsd like other kinds of ptsd?

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I think the DSM criteria for diagnosing are absolutely the same.

However, I think combat soldiers with PTSD should NOT discuss combat around other PTSD folks who never went to war. Also as a non-combat soldier, I would NOT want to be put in another group with soldiers talking about their combat experiences. I think the groups I've attended encouraged me to become more hypervigilant and paranoid. For the combat PTSD vet, I think the group therapy with others with combat PTSD should be controlled so that discussion doesn't get too graphic, especially if it's triggering others in the group. Hypnosis or other relaxation methods should be utilized to calm the group before the group is dismissed. I've see a few groups end and soldiers storm off in a dissociated state and the counselors be clueless to the signs that the soldier would be harming themselves/others in a very short time frame.

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Troy said:
How can you even tell a non combat veteran about any of this? It's easier to just tell them it was a "walk in the park" -- why burden them with any of the horrors we've seen?

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I think within discretion you may tell others who haven't seen war horrors. A person's gaze tells a lot. If you choose to talk to a non-professional, then try to be sensitive to that person's body language. But you should also be sensitive to your own body language. For instance, as you tell your story and you begin to see/feel/hear/smell/taste the memories, you should also do "grounding" exercises so you can stay in the present (you are not in the past, you are here and safe, don't float off to misery, feel the floor, etc.) The mind is a powerful organ that you can control, and if you feel out of control then you shouldn't be discussing your issues to a non-professional. This point would be a good idea to call a counselor.

I think it is important to talk about things you want to talk about. If you want to share your experiences about war and you find someone who is very interested in hearing your story, then that's something good to work on discussing. This isn't like any conversation so take it slow. Like all relationships, you just don't DUMP on a person.

Another tidbit ... some things aren't anyone's business but your own. Keep discretion and try to be wise when and what to disclose. On the other hand, "total non-disclosure forever" is called avoidance, a symptom of PTSD. For me, I disclose a little bit sometimes just to force myself out of avoidance.

There are psychologists who have seen war, and understand.

Yes, Combat PTSD is the same as PTSD... the only reason you're given the creedance of "combat" ptsd is so people don't assume it is from abuse as a child. Mine would then have to be considered "industrial accident" ptsd, and those who went through natural disasters and have ptsd from that would be "natural disaster" ptsd. So you have PTSD, just like anyone else that has PTSD.

Now with that said, no one has the exact same PTSD issues nor responses. There are many parts of it that are the same (hyper-vigilance etc) but no one triggers exactly the same, no one responds exactly the same... as the next person with PTSD.

Not everyone who experiences war suffers ptsd. Not everyone who is abused suffers ptsd. Not everyone who is disabled in an industrial accident suffers ptsd. Not everyone who lives through a natural disaster suffers ptsd.

I say that so you don't get into the idea that everyone who goes to war and sees what you saw will understand what PTSD is either...you don't have to single out those who are non-combat veterans for them not to understand. And, most of those who HAVE ptsd don't understand it either. It's that kind of a disorder.

not sure but I personally think they are a little different. that being said, there was a study done years ago on combat ptsd and it's causes....there is a chemical much like adreneline and gets depleted when in holy terror. in most what I call normal ptsd is over time that chemical can reproduce. in combat ptsd being in constant combat and fear it completely depletes and it can't reproduce because there is not time between instances.

Whew... thanks Sabby and Jennie... thanks for thinking through this and letting me see your perspective.

I was thinking of not hitting submit after I keyed in that post, but then decided to go ahead. In a way, I'm sorry I put it up, because it shows more and more of the way my mind works, but on the other hand, I'm glad it is posted because you guys could give me your feedback.

You're right. The shrink doesn't have to have combat experience. But we vets will still resist telling what we know. You probably already know that we have one way of telling a story to other vets and a cleaned up, sanitized, everything explained version to tell other ppl. You probably noticed that I had to drop in the (Line of Departure) in the post, explaining to those who don't know the military. That's just a mild example and a technical thing, not part of the real story.

It's probably the same with anyone that we resist telling when the person doesn't have the experience. Not unique to soldiers.

Here's a question for Jennie ... If I should be cautious about telling the "whole story" to non-combat ppl, what does that say about the stories I'm posting here? Are they too graphic? And if they are, just where can I go to tell these stories.

The combat ptsd forum mentioned in the post criticized someone for telling the story. Said they were looking for sympathy. As though a rape victim came here and just posted the story. The guy said that sympathy had no place in the ptsd arena and went on and on about it. As a newbie reading his notes, I felt like both he and I are jerks. I must be a jerk for telling the stories, and he must be a jerk for telling me that that would be a form of looking for sympathy.

That's the kind of response I would expect from a T. -- "You get no sympathy here, bub." .... WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR SYMPATHY! We don't even want to tell these stories. We don't even want to remember the stories. We wish ...

[You can probably tell that I've deleted content here]

The only shrink I ever encountered tried to put me on a psych ward when all I needed was a little understanding, just a little.
It was all about an unqualified aide insisting that he would change my bandages, having to ask me what he should do first, what stuff he needed, and he didn't even wash his hands before reaching for my wounds ... and I refused to let him work on me. Does that sound like psych ward material to you? It was that simple.

How can we enter a forum like this and be always vigilant that we'll say the wrong thing, that we'll be politically incorrect, that what we say might sound like we're looking for sympathy? I've been silent so long that I can't even voice these things. The memory resides in my body and comes out through my finger tips as they range across the keyboard.

I don't want to hurt anyone with these stories. I already feel like a creep spilling the beans about things of honor (or dishonor - I don't know anymore).

You don't have to answer any of the questions posed here. They just had to come out. Actually, I'm on the verge of deleting all of these posts. It's way out there for me, and the permanence of it all is making me way too nervous. It often seems like it would be easier to keep the memories buried and not tell anyone, ever.

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Troy said:
Here's a question for Jennie ... If I should be cautious about telling the "whole story" to non-combat ppl, what does that say about the stories I'm posting here? Are they too graphic? And if they are, just where can I go to tell these stories.

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I believe this forum has addressed this issue with the requirement of using the trigger icon to warn people to read at his/her own risk.

I doubt any of your posts were too graphic or admin would have contacted you about your posts.

I don't think you need to be so cautious in this one "combat ptsd" forum as long as you warn others with a trigger icon any serious stories you post.

I think the whole purpose of these forums is much like journaling, but done in a less private manner. Sometimes you can connect with others if timing is right. Certain posts just seem to call out to certain people to be read. It's all quite mystical.

Although, sharing your story face to face with some ... you may need to use discretion and wisdom. I've dumped my issues on one or two persons and it took me a really long time to realize there needed to be balance in the relationship. PTSD is very intense. Thank goodness these forums do not require any balance. It can be all about me if I want it to be; or I can hide and lurk; or I can focus on the needs of others...that's therapeutic!

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Troy said:
The combat ptsd forum mentioned in the post criticized someone for telling the story. Said they were looking for sympathy. As though a rape victim came here and just posted the story. The guy said that sympathy had no place in the ptsd arena and went on and on about it. As a newbie reading his notes, I felt like both he and I are jerks. I must be a jerk for telling the stories, and he must be a jerk for telling me that that would be a form of looking for sympathy.

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Well, we all are human. It's unfortunate there's occasional unsupportive posts here. I don't know anything about that particular issue you mention but if that guy was a vet, maybe he was applying the "suck it up" attitude? In the theater you do need to suck it up, but off duty the rules to the game of life change.

When I was in the service I knew the rule was don't talk about personal issues. No one was there for me. When I first asked for help, I was denied counseling. When I first displayed tears to my supervisor, she told me how unprofessional I was acting. That is what happens in the military. Sucking it up made me suffer more because I needed to talk about what was going on in my mind and have no fear regarding my thoughts and emotions. It wasn't the trauma per se that destroyed my spirit, it was the learned behavior of the military to repress emotions that caused my PTSD. Undoing all that brainwashing has been a huge task. It really is okay to have the thoughts and feelings. I don't need to escape from this world. I don't need to numb myself.

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Troy said:
That's the kind of response I would expect from a T. -- "You get no sympathy here, bub." .... WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR SYMPATHY! We don't even want to tell these stories. We don't even want to remember the stories. We wish ...

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Well, there's all kinds of shrinks. They're supposed to have empathy but not all do. Sometimes they burn out and keep seeing patients because that's their job and they need income.

If you ever decide on talking to a counselor, interview him/her before you decide to even tell your story. I personally like the more holistic folks, the ones into relaxation and meditation, etc., so I can learn to live comfy in the here and now.

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Troy said:
The only shrink I ever encountered tried to put me on a psych ward when all I needed was a little understanding, just a little.
It was all about an unqualified aide insisting that he would change my bandages, having to ask me what he should do first, what stuff he needed, and he didn't even wash his hands before reaching for my wounds ... and I refused to let him work on me. Does that sound like psych ward material to you? It was that simple.

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Sounds like your boundaries were violated.

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Troy said:
How can we enter a forum like this and be always vigilant that we'll say the wrong thing, that we'll be politically incorrect, that what we say might sound like we're looking for sympathy? I've been silent so long that I can't even voice these things. The memory resides in my body and comes out through my finger tips as they range across the keyboard.

I don't want to hurt anyone with these stories. I already feel like a creep spilling the beans about things of honor (or dishonor - I don't know anymore).

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I don't think you need to be vigilant here, except about posting personal private info. There are basic PsychCentral rules but if we break them, and admin will let us know, in that case, just apologize and accept it. But I think it is perfectly okay to make mistakes. Part of the PTSD rage is compulsivity.

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Troy said:
You don't have to answer any of the questions posed here. They just had to come out. Actually, I'm on the verge of deleting all of these posts. It's way out there for me, and the permanence of it all is making me way too nervous. It often seems like it would be easier to keep the memories buried and not tell anyone, ever.

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I do the same thing...worrying about what I write. Good thing Psych Central allows us that freedom to delete content.

Hey Troy, to help you realize that you aren't alone in this miserable disorder, remember that it was first called "shell shock." Because of studies and war, it became Post traumatic stress disorder.

It was later that it was realized that other such traumas, such as abuse and life threatening accidents/disasters also caused the same reactions.

The term "combat ptsd" is to delineate it from the other traumas so that the veterans will seek help and others will know why too, imo. It IS PTSD, one in the same.

You know what I found out here? Post what you need to and if it's too much, some mod or admin will let you know, assuming that another member doesn't complain first. Trial by fire maybe, but with PTSD you can't be hunkering down on a site worried about who is gonna zing you next for something that flew off your fingers.

Not enough people understand this at all, and that includes members here. Can't fault them for that, though.

I'll share that one of my main triggers is when those in authority don't do what they are (legitimately) supposed to! For me, I had just completed counter-terrorism training but was still in the field, when a shelter collapsed on me. It took hours to get the lieutenant to bother and then he didn't even get me medical help and ordered others not to help me either, even saying to let me get my own **** injury report form! (someone had pity though and did get it for me.) Anyway, the Lt was booted and the Captain was demoted....and me? I'm disabled for life, now 21 years.

I don't fully understand PTSD. Well, maybe I do as much as the next doctor, but because I suffer with it, I can't always remember that it's the PTSD that's causing issues for me! Yeah, the nature of the beast.

((((((((( Troy ))))))))))

There is a huge difference between sympathy and empathy. Any therapist worth their weight in salt would not throw out there the sympathetic card...but would more than likely show empathy to your situation. I don't believe that a good therapist would feel sorry for you, but they would feel that as a viable human being you deserve care within your healing.

Considering this forum is for folks suffering from ptsd due to being in combat, there is an expectation that it will get messy within the posting of such difficult memories. As was said previously, the trigger icons are there and it is within each members own discression to read or not to read.

I think many people suffering from ptsd have the feeling of having to hold back what they say. People don't want to hurt others with their difficult memories and trauma. People don't always know that just because someone hasn't been through the same thing, they can still be helpful towards the healing process.

Troy, you may find that within the healing process, there are things you don't want to disclose. And that is perfectly alright. Sometimes within that process, you may not be emotionally ready to disclose particular trauma as in doing so, you may re-traumatize yourself and actually make the ptsd worse. Only after being in therapy and learning the tools you can use to help yourself will it possibly be a way for you to then discuss and face the trauma...but only when you are ready to do so without causing yourself to be re-traumatized. I hope that makes sense to you. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself clearly enough.

I'm sorry you had a difficult experience with the aid and the T. I can see where it would make you shy away from finding another T to go to. One thing to remember.....if you decide to look for another T, you can always interview them before seeing them. Look for one who specializes in PTSD and trauma. They would have the background in helping someone learn the tools and work through the trauma, only when ready to do so. You can make a list of questions to ask a T. They should NOT be upset for you asking questions of their expertise. They should be more than willing to answer your questions and tell you what they think they can help you with.

Hang in there Troy, you are doing fine here in this forum. I understand it can be very difficult getting things out there....and then worrying about what you have written.


sabby

You know what ... one of the things that is hardest for me to accept are kind words. It's like I need the understanding and kindness, but the kind words almost always bring tears. Is that ptsd?

At the same time, I worry about saying this because someone might avoid saying kind things. Is that crazy?

And...I want to tell all of it while wanting to take down all the posts. Is that fubar?

I don't think that is ptsd hon. I think it is called "sensitive" and that is a good thing

Not fubar!! What you are recognizing is empathy. Yes, PTSD makes it difficult to believe and trust everything! However, to find others who truly care can reach deep within us and touch that desire for someone to understand and make it all right again.

IDK if my original posts still exist (in the other ptsd forum, because someone is supposed to go through and delete old posts or something) but there were many times I posted and then wish I hadn't. Mind you, it was a new forum and almost no one posted there but me then, and others who had ptsd but from childhood causes were still in the Abuse forum.) It's more frustrating, and was then, to post and not have someone understand. But their posting back acted like they did, when it was so obvious that they truly didn't. To figure out how to accept that kind of "help" that really wasn't support in the knowledgeable sense, wasn't easy. I still have issues with it now...but take it at face value as someone who wants to give support, they just aren't sure how to.

The reason for this special forum is so you can post about your experiences and those who want to read about PTSD issues but not about war, can stay in the other forums. I actually get these better than the others because I identify with your experiences.

bebop and sky do understand and I truly benefit from everything you're telling me. There are some others here as well who have really helped me escape some obvious misbehavior and understand the effects of csa and ptsd.

Without all of you, I would have hit bottom. I felt like I was crazy and going over the edge, watching myself do things that were just not me. At one point I even wondered whether I might have a dual personality and could watch one of me doing things I wanted no part of.

I'm always happy to hear the feedback. After I post, I drop back in a couple times a day to get updated. Thank you for caring. All of you.

Troy, dissociation is also a part of ptsd...to distance, remove, numb oneself from whatever the brain thinks is happening... and of course, when the brain decides to give us a flashback.

Guilt
Honor
Sympathy
Whack!

Belief
Trust
Duty
Whack!

Secrets
Innuendo
Gossip
Whack!

Tell
Confess
Reveal
Whack!

Control
Resist
Fight
Whack!

Whatever ...

It is very difficult to put a life together after the onset of ptsd, from any cause.

It probably is best to treat life like a brand new journal to write in, or a new chalkboard that has nothing on it, and never did.

List those basic things that you must have: food and water, sleep etc. Make sure you have good plans on how those things will "happen." (I have to tell you, after 21 years I still struggle with all that, but my basic plan is what keeps me going when my mind can't function.)

It's necessary to remove all extraordinary interactions, and limit over stimulation, especially when first trying to get your "act" together and stabilize with this disorder, imo.

Add in one new thing at a time, something you used to like to do, and see if you can still do it with enjoyment. (I haven't found anything that I can really enjoy from before ptsd ..but a big part of that is also my physical disability.)

Step by step...baby steps. Very slowly... very, very slowly.

Your comment about adding one thing at a time in a slow process seems like a great approach.

I've basically backed out of everything except work and some family things. All of it seemed like such a waste of effort. As you say, I'm trying to grow the family things back that had kind of evaporated over the years, a little at a time.

I haven't announced any of this, just started doing it. Trying to spend more time with family and be more engaged when I'm with them. A couple times individuals have noticed that something is different and asked is everything all right?

What I wanted to say was NO, NOTHING HAS BEEN ALL RIGHT FOR YEARS -- DIDN'T YOU NOTICE ... but, kept my cool and said, "Sure, what make you ask?" ....

I think one of my milestones will be when I can laugh at light hearted jokes and one liners that go on in our family -- and mean it, actually feel the laughter.

as you say - slowly.
Thanks Sky