[lifeblows]

Hi, I have PTSD (non-military related, childhood & sexual abuse stuff) and have always been curious about something related to those who have been in & seen war. For various reasons, I just quit therapy after almost three & a half years. I am still royally messed up, suffering symptoms of PTSD that keep me from doing daily functions and normal routine things, in other words nowhere near better.

Many, many times in therapy, my therapist would tell me I sounded just like a Vietnam veteran he had seen, like a prisoner of war, or like someone who grew up in a concentration camp. I have never been to war yet he said I spoke exactly like that soldier and when I read the stories about the guys who come back from Iraq and go nuts because they see, hear, and smell war still everywhere, I know exactly what they mean. And the stories about the nightmares and trying to avoid sleep, oh I can totally relate.

The therapist would always tell me I live in a war zone (I know he meant that metaphorically), but it would always baffle me that I could have the same problems and anxiety as someone who saw and experienced the horrors of war. I know some of the horrible things that guy was forced to do and witness in Vietnam and I could never imagine that guy thinking my past was problematic in comparison to his.

I would tell my therapist yeah right, if a soldier heard my story or what happened to me in my life they would probably laugh and call me a f**king p**sy in comparison to what they've seen & done during war. When I saw this section I figured here's my chance to ask some soldiers what they had to say about that and if they indeed would consider my forms of trauma nothing in comparison to theirs. I just don't understand how someone who grew up in a non-war zone (although it felt like one and was a very chaotic and unstable home environment with constant threats of attack) could end up like someone who did spend time in a real war zone. Would be really curious to hear what you think.

[bebop]

hi and welcome. I am not a combat veteran or any kind of veteran for that matter but was married to one for years. for many years that is all I was around was other vietnam vets. I even dreamed I was in war just from hearing their stories and living with my then husband. there is some difference to combat ptsd and other ptsd. the biggest difference is those guys were in constant fear. every day every minute they were in the field. I don't know what your story is so it is hard to know if it can compare to that of combat or not. I am not saying combat is worse than ptsd in civilians. I can offer you a huge hug though

[lifeblows]

Thanks bebop. You kind of helped answer my question. I grew up in CONSTANT anxiety and fear, so that must be where the similarity comes from between me & the soldier. You never knew when or where the terror or wrath would strike and you had to be on guard every single second because even when things seemed like they might be okay they could change out of nowhere without warning into chaos and disorder. And you could trust no one, couldn't tell who was the real enemy or not. Anyone could be out to get you or turn on you. Problem was I experienced all this as a child so it's really messed me up.

Interesting what you said about some of the effects it had on you because my therapist said the effects of war are passed on through the generations. Even though veterans' kids weren't in war there have been studies done showing they experience the same effects. I would believe it based on the things I've seen in my family and abusers I know of or have met. One of my abusers was a Vietnam vet and one of my relatives who helped carry on the legacy of abuse that runs in my family was a WWI vet. So I'm not a big fan of war and what it makes grown men do to little girls to say the least. That stuff has a negative impact for years and generations to come.

Thank you for the response and hug. I needed it.

[bebop]

hon war does not make those men do bad things to little girls. that is something already within that man. please believe me on that. was this abuser your father?
at one time I was diagnosed as secondary ptsd from living with my husband. maybe that is what you have. I also had primary due to physical abuse from my mom.

[Troy]

Many soldiers in combat were in a state of constant fear, especially when we lived in the jungle for months on end. If the enemy didn't get you with a sniper round, there was the constant danger of booby traps. If the traps didn't get you, direct battle with the enemy was right around the corner.

Some soldiers didn't live in fear every minute, but they were always in a constant state of hyper alert, as you described in your situation. Then the crisis would arrive, we'd deal with it, and go back into hyper alert while burying the grief or terror that comes from seeing people killed right beside you, or your best friend thrown aboard a medical evacuation helicopter and never hearing from them again.

You've lived in some of the same territory. The PTSD might be technically different, but you'll surely experience some of the same reactions to the PTSD. There is a theory that the PTSD is more than emotional or psychological, that it is also physical - that the trauma causes some physical changes in our bodies. And we see these changes in the "symptoms" you mentioned.

It's ok to be against war. I bet soldiers are the most anti-war people in the world. They are willing to go into danger because they want to protect others, not because they like the fight or the terror. And the soldiers pay a price. And the families of the soldiers pay a price.

Not all soldiers are would be child molestors or rapists. We often hear stories about troops raping women in conqured territory, but I never saw a single solder who wanted to do that. And all of them would go out of their way, put their lives in danger to protect children (even the children of the enemy). There's something else going on with people who do that -- it's not the war.

I hope you find in PsychCentral some relief from the "symptoms" and an understanding of what is needed to get beyond the trauma you suffered. You'll meet some good people here. Welcome to PC.

T. (and that doesn't mean therapist)

[(JD)]

PTSD is the same, regardless of the trauma. (Not everyone who experiences trauma develops PTSD.) PTSD not only causes brain chemical changes, it causes changes in brain physiology. That's part of why at this point it isn't curable. They're still figuring it out. It's also part of why it's so tough to live with.

No one is "for" war. I think everyone is against war (those who are living in reality.) But soldiers realize that sometimes you have to fight for what is right, or those who want to counter that will take it away. My personal thanks for all soldiers, marines, airmen, coasties, and sailors!

[Troy]

Yeaaaaaa _Sky !!!! We join you in saluting the warriors who keep this nation free.

i have severe PTSD from both never ending childhood and adult sexual abuse. friends have asked how common was it..(geez like why would you want to know anyway...)...i say like well..you ate dinner every night...well in my house...all hell broke loose instead

this was also compounded by working at a federal site (a park) where we conducted bomb sweeps at least once (or more) each day and hostage negotiations, and all sorts of things now common post 9/11...and this was from 1986 on. we had riots, take overs, protests etc....
i think all of our staff expected to be injured severely or killed at some point either by an explosive or a terrorist...especially during the gulf war, 1st WTC bombing, lockerbie bombing, flight 800, other conflicts etc...it never was safe

i am a PTSD nightmare i think for my therapist (and for me too) so many things can set me off...it makes life difficult at times and hard to explain to others who have not been in either situation..once at the psychiatrists office a car alarm went off and i damn near landed under my chair...i honestly don't think he realized the PTSD was as bad as it was until that point...he does now....

it's very hard some times

[Troy]

It's a tough situation Stumpy, very tough.

After they are in the military, soldiers don't have much choice about whether they'll experience war. If they're sent, they're sent.

And those who grow up in abusive situations have little choice about it. I still feel guilt about what happened to me as a child. Logically, I know it was not my fault, but emotionally, I blame myself for going along with it, so to speak. Not telling.

Adults who have choices sometimes stick with jobs that create PTSD because they are called to do that work. They can do what must be done. Many of us couldn't do the work or would opt for easier, non threatening jobs. Salute to you for the work you've performed.

[Capp]

Troy,
Hi. I'm Cap...
I've been reading some of the posts, and found many of them informative.
I'm not done reading yet, but so far I've found little or nothing about the in country nurses who served in Nam.
Is this an exclusive club for the men only?

Cap
RN, RVN
1968-1971

[Troy]

LOL ... exclusive to combat ptsd and anyone else who wants to drop in.

Thanks for the note Cap ... and let me be one who thanks you a million for your service. Nighttime gunfight put me into a mash hospital and medical staff brought me back from the dead a few times, pumped me fulla blood donated by kind people everywhere, and stuck with me during a long long period of recovery.

Salute to the nurses in all wars and especially Vietnam. And apologies for not being a better patient.

Salute !
T.

[Capp]

Thank you, Troy, and please accept my apology for being in a bit of a snit.
Within the first few years of returning stateside, many nurses sought help for our problems and were turned away--by professionals and by peer to peer support groups.
Apparently no one understood we also had PTSD and part of that was survivors guilt, and guilt in general...despite our efforts, not everyone made it home obviously.
Several of my nursing sisters, and myself, spent countless days wondering if we had done anything differently...would they have made it home.
Yeah, I know the answer but it's still hard at times.

stumpy, I have hit the floor while shouting, Incoming!, when there would be a particularly loud noise--living near a military base does not help especially when maneuvers are near daily occurrences.
on a lighter note, I was leaving a shopping mall, don't know what the big bang was, but I hit the ground and so did seven other Vets...we could see each other and we burst out laughing (slightly embarrassed)...we went to the coffee shop to talk and share and welcome each other home. Problem was everyone wanted to sit with their backs to the wall. Eight of us squabbling like kids...lol...the manager rearranged the sitting area and we all had our backs against that wall.
When we questioned the manager, he told us he is a Marine and understood completely...
Semper Fi!
Both my younger brothers are Marines. The remains of one are in Nam and his name is on the Wall. The other died a few years ago from brain cancer, the type usually considered connected to Agent Orange exposure.
His widow fought and won bennies from it...
Strangest damn--oops! darn--thing happened the night of his wake. We went outside to smoke--I know I know it's a bad habit--and started talking to another family.
Long story short--their Marine died of the same cancer, was stationed in the same area as my brother, and in the same year...

I didn't mean to write a novella! It's most likely part of my PTSD that once I start writing...and to think that at one time all I could do was basically grunt a Go To The Hot Place.
Coping mechanism for sure...in response to the suggestion to several of us "females" that our hormones were the source of our problems; here's a Valium for you.

I salute all Vets and their families.
I'm an Army brat and my gratitude goes back a long way.

Cap
Again, I appreciate your over-looking my initial attitude, Troy...
I'm very glad you also made it home.

[Troy]

OH Cap .. You are a hero ! Thank you and your courageous family for all your service over the years. A family of warriors!

Over the years I've thought about your job along with all of those in the medical arena. I don't know how you survived the tour, much less the aftermath.

Maybe you'll private message me and let me know where you were stationed in Vietnam, and when. For years I've wanted to find a way to find those medics, nurses, surgeons and chopper pilots who saved my life, just to let them know they are appreciated. *tears

In the field, we were exposed to a lot of death and mayhem, but your jobs put you in touch with it 24/7 ... and there was no way for you to fight the enemy who was destroying the teens that you saw. *more tears

One time I proposed that they let the medical staff at least visit the artillery batteries and pull the lanyard. Sending artillery against the enemy would at least have given some way to fight the destroyers. But ... as usual, my ideas were considered extreme and not approved.

At my lowest time during recovery (and during the greatest pain), I suggested that all physicians have as part of their training to be shot at least once to see how it feels to have the bandages ripped off and how it feels to cut off the pain meds. Well, it was a stupid idea, but it shows how those physical wounds start to modify logical thinking.

Like you, I open the window and my fingers take over, typing thoughts and stories that were not part of my memory at all. It's like my body is revealing to my mind what the brain should have known.

Re. your brothers death from cancer ... a note of appreciation, in memoriam, for his service. I've known several soldiers who died of cancer, some soon after the war and others much later. Maybe it was agent orange, maybe it was burning the crappers, who knows. I don't think the gov'mt intentionally exposed anyone to the cancer causer, nor do I think that the govm't intentionally kept anyone from treatment or benefits. But I do think there was something in combat that gave a lot of ppl cancer. Just like is going on today in Iraq something.

The point is, we have great medical ppl like you who have served in combat and given their life's work to help others survive and thrive.

Thank you (and same to you, apologies for the rambling) ...

Keep your back againt the wall ! (I still react to loud noises like that)

[bebop]

welcome capp! it is good to see a nurse on the site here. I know many men want to thank you for the work you did in vietnam. I am in Ga also! howdy neighbor. welcome home!

[Capp]

1968-1971
Pleiku was my baptism...Tet was a helluva welcome to hell
Then I did the mosey down to Chu Lai...met my first husband there. He is a Marine medic who was seriously wounded and died several months after I returned stateside. I'm ever so grateful I had that time with him...
I had to pull in some markers, and so did my Dad, for marrying an enlisted man...jc, the Army was nuts about it. TS. we married anyway...

It took me nearly two years before I could cry. No matter what, we never--But Never--let our guys see us cry. We did it after they left us. Some were alive, some were not. Honestly? We cried for both; the youngness of all of us, knowing we would never feel innocent again, and it was going to take awhile to feel safe.
...and, yeah, there wasn't enough pain meds in the world to help most of our guys. It's why we stayed as long as we could and held hands and talked about anything we could think of, then it was back to the OR...

Ah crap...I'll be back soon

Cap

[Capp]

I offer my apology to all...

First time in a long time, but when I typed 1971, memories flooded me...husband going stateside without me, finishing my tour, taking care of him for months until he died...the funeral.
it's like that block of time was crushing me again. my arrival in hell to Stephan's death is combined into a weight that nearly broke me...

ya know how it is when the only way you can continue on is by rote? ya slip into what's nearly a dream/nightmare state 'cause otherwise there's gonna be big problems with you functioning?
that's what those years were like probably 2/3 of the time.

it surprised me that I reacted so strongly to four numbers
Cap

[lostandscared54]

Lifeblows,

When I was young, about 16, I was told something similar. I was told that I was shell-shocked and that I showed the signs of PTSD. I, of course, did not believe this doctor and stopped seeing this doctor. I was wrong, he was correct. I suffered PTSD from an abusive childhood. I was physically and emotionally abused. When I turned 18, I joined the Marine Corps. I went to Iraq and saw combat. Now, I have been diagnosed formally with PTSD and schizoaffective disorder. War is hell, but regular civilian experiences can be just as bad, if not worse. No one who has seen true combat would say you are a P#$$y. You were in your own war. A war to stay alive. We dealt with rounds and explosions, while you dealt with different stressors. Good luck, and get back in therapy.

lostandscared54 / CPL
United States Marine Corps

[Sailaway]

I'm 26 and spent almost two of the last 6 years in Iraq. I also have a past that leaves something to be desired. Therapy is helpful I guess but I think I'm stuck ni that "it gets worse before it gets better" stage. PTSD from combat and abuse although two very different experiences are one in the same. It's a war, a never ending battle to rid your mind of what you can't forget. Those who are weak and those are strong do survive, war has no color lines or racial boundaries. Sometimes surviving the nightmares is harder than anything else. I wake up almost every night from something that my mind won't let me forget.

[Troy]

Welcome to the forum, Cap ... and thanks for saving my life!

The MASH medical team stopped the bleeding, pumped me full of donated red cells, repaired the bones that could be patched up, doped me up to avoid the pain, and loved me back to life more than once.

And for this I thank you. I don't think anyone anywhere can understand the job you had caring for combat wounded soldiers, but I know the beauty of your life saving skills and the horror of seeing the combat wounds and watching teens die, over and over and over. *tears

You deserve the Medal of Honor for the bravery shown day after day...and I'll bet most of the people around you don't even recognize your service.

This is your forum, too. Tell it like it is.

T.

Originally Posted by Capp

Troy,
Hi. I'm Cap...
I've been reading some of the posts, and found many of them informative.
I'm not done reading yet, but so far I've found little or nothing about the in country nurses who served in Nam.
Is this an exclusive club for the men only?

Cap
RN, RVN
1968-1971

[Troy]

Oh, Sailaway ... I know the feeling. You're tough. You've learned how to box up those memories. Learning about PTSD and its effects now is of great value to you so you know what's going on. I didn't know the cause of my behavior and misbehavior and thought always that I was just out of control.

In a sense I was out of control because PTSD was the controlling factor. But these things I do are not me. I'm here watching them happen just like anyone else would be watching.

Maybe your T. can advise you on what to do when that rage erupts, tell you how to calm yourself and recover from the adrenelin that flows and the freight that accompanies the unexplained anger.

Maybe your T. can help you head off the alcohol and drug addiction that are so attractive in our trying to block memories or redirect our thinking.

Maybe your T. can show you how to reconnect with others, how to learn to trust them, how to let them get close to you, how to avoid cutting off all friendships because being close to someone means more pain for you when they leave or something happens to them.

Maybe your T. can tell you how to remain connected when in conversation with others so you can pay attention to what they are saying and not wondering about things past as they talk on and on about the most inconsequential things.

Maybe your T. can help you avoid the other addictions that are waiting for you just around the corner, things you would declare are impossible today but things that creep into your psyche and try to control you.

Maybe your T. can help you overcome feeling like a creep as you reveal your innermost self to others and tell the secrets that haunt you.

Maybe your T. can help you overcome the feeling of guilt for what you've done and for what has been done to you....and for how you've hurt others either through actions or through mistakes.

Maybe your T. can help you accept it when others think highly of you while you know deep inside that you don't deserved it.

Thank you for your service. *tears

Originally Posted by Sailaway

I'm 26 and spent almost two of the last 6 years in Iraq. I also have a past that leaves something to be desired. Therapy is helpful I guess but I think I'm stuck ni that "it gets worse before it gets better" stage. PTSD from combat and abuse although two very different experiences are one in the same. It's a war, a never ending battle to rid your mind of what you can't forget. Those who are weak and those are strong do survive, war has no color lines or racial boundaries. Sometimes surviving the nightmares is harder than anything else. I wake up almost every night from something that my mind won't let me forget.

[Sailaway]

Thank you so very much for that post.
~Sailaway

[Capp]

Possible Big Trigger

This old broad is trying to address the different things in the post--sorry if I'm doing it wrong...

Originally Posted by Troy

Oh, Sailaway ... I know the feeling. You're tough. You've learned how to box up those memories. Learning about PTSD and its effects now is of great value to you so you know what's going on. I didn't know the cause of my behavior and misbehavior and thought always that I was just out of control.

*JME, but boxing up those feelings will continue to bite your *** every night and day of your life...facing them is not easy but has to be done. Period.
Forgiving yourself for past actions is of paramount importance. At any given time, we did the best we could.
I did some downright crappy things when I was deep into my drug and alcohol addictions. My heart fills with sorrow at some of them but the shame and guilt no longer controls me.

Maybe your T. can advise you on what to do when that rage erupts, tell you how to calm yourself and recover from the adrenelin that flows and the freight that accompanies the unexplained anger.

**Yeah, we get to learn "techniques" for handling this crap. Works most of the time for me; other times, I've cold cocked someone who came up behind me. In a store. He did not press charges...
However, they work most of the time. Jme, it started off slow then I started feeling stronger and less hyper-vigilant. It took time, man. That four letter word that I equate with the **** word.

Maybe your T. can help you head off the alcohol and drug addiction that are so attractive in our trying to block memories or redirect our thinking.

**They give you tools and you decide if you are going to use them...
**I got tired of carrying that sack of guilt/shame garbage on my back...from childhood trauma to the war.
Damn tired. Damn desperate. Dam Bursting With Pent Up Crap.

Maybe your T. can show you how to reconnect with others, how to learn to trust them, how to let them get close to you, how to avoid cutting off all friendships because being close to someone means more pain for you when they leave or something happens to them.

**Standing with you on this one. I had to learn how to trust again, love again, want to be loved...and understand that folks were going to come in and out of my life--and it was no reflection on me. Life happens...

Maybe your T. can tell you how to remain connected when in conversation with others so you can pay attention to what they are saying and not wondering about things past as they talk on and on about the most inconsequential things.

**jme, again...until I did the demon destruction thing, nothing was important to me except those demons. they ruled my life, every minute of my life. I could not see beyond them and understand that others had important things in their lives.
God, I used to listen to people talk and think, FU, you don't know crap...and that was on a good day.

Maybe your T. can help you avoid the other addictions that are waiting for you just around the corner, things you would declare are impossible today but things that creep into your psyche and try to control you.

**we learn, we learn.
I can do anything for ten minutes that would PO me if I had to do it for 24 hours...taking it ten minutes at a time is what got me through detox and my first year.
It gets me through now when a brick wall busts my brass ones. By grace, it's gotten me through the last 26 years...

Maybe your T. can help you overcome feeling like a creep as you reveal your innermost self to others and tell the secrets that haunt you.
**tell them to the right folks and there will be no condemnation and no judgment. whether it's a therapist, fellow survivor, or peer support...

Maybe your T. can help you overcome the feeling of guilt for what you've done and for what has been done to you....and for how you've hurt others either through actions or through mistakes.

**my childhood trauma was the first thing I had to tackle. I didn't live with my parents until I was nearly 12...my father stayed in the Army after the war because of the local economy...I saw him every six months. I didn't understand that one of the women in that hell hole was my mother...I called her by her first name until we left there. She refused to stay there when he got orders for Germany the first time.
**No one in that hell hole tried to protect me from my abuser. when I went to The Grandmother, I was told if I weren't such a bad little girl he would not do it to me. Not one nun ever comforted me when I came to school bleeding/bruised/couldn't sit down.
**that crap had to come out before I could address the PTSD from Nam.
**so many people used to picture all the nurses in pure white unnies, and white hose, and hair tidy, legs and armpits shaved, and Smelling Good.
**yeah right. try in country where the water (shudder) tasted like panther pee, ya shaved only your armpits for the wounded--we didn't want to reach over them for something and they would see hairy pits... on your feet for 12-?? hours in the OR and having cramps and needing to pee so damn bad your bladder was spasming...mad dash to anywhere you could squat to take that pee and cry.
**triage. "Lt., take care of my buddy first. He's lots worse than me." not with your guts spilling out, sweetie, so you are next. JC, he's about 19...
**"Am I gonna die? Can I touch your hair cause it reminds me of my girl?" Oh God, how bad does it smell of sweat? Not that he noticed...he was back in the arms of his girl.

Maybe your T. can help you accept it when others think highly of you while you know deep inside that you don't deserved it.

**survivors guilt hits us in many ways from many things. we can also become abusers in words or actions or both. Part of it...but our "power" can be reclaimed when we get honesty and get the ****ing crap out of us.
**deep inside where we keep our secrets? everyone in this world has secrets, not all of them are like ours and we should recognize that difference. it does not mean we are any worse of a human being because of ours...
**one of mine for a very long time was killing a man. shot him in the face when he was about 10 feet from me...doing our little jaunt to the hamlet to feed and suture and tsk-tsk over the babies...four of 'em came at us. driver dead, thank God for sidearms and a medic coming along at the last minute or I'd be dead, too. when we returned I went straight to the Sgt that gave me his personal sidearm cause he didn't like Army issue crap...no way could I ever thank him enough. he got home
**I saw his face up close. he was as young as our guys and just as scared and we saw the fear in each others eyes...my weapon was better than his...bye bye gook/bastard/son of a mother who will never know/husband? daddy?/brother?
I killed you. I took life from you when I swore to keep life precious and protect...ah hell, what does it matter. the sob is dead and has been for a very long time.

Thank you for your service. *tears

I didn't do it right so I put asterisks at the start of my replies.

we walk through hell and keep going, man
Cap

...gotta go puke. sorry for the visual.
I'm not triggered, just sad.

Proud Of Everyone Of Us!

[Troy]

Exactly

The look in the his eyes as we stood 5 feet apart -- who would pull the trigger first -- who survived

Later in the medivac with a pilot who refused to go back for my dying friend until i threatened to shoot him 2

And few days later at the MASH - all through the ward, "more demoral please - i know it's not time, Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, more demoral"