[StuffandThat]

I've tried a bunch of guided meditations online but they all seem to make me feel a lot worse..

It occurred to me though that meditation and dissociation are very similar. So I did some googling and found out its known that M&M can be harmful to people who dissociate.

When mindfulness goes wrong

http://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=350

What is your experience with Meditation/mindfulness?

[Trace14]

Originally Posted by StuffandThat

I've tried a bunch of guided meditations online but they all seem to make me feel a lot worse..

It occurred to me though that meditation and dissociation are very similar. So I did some googling and found out its known that M&M can be harmful to people who dissociate.

When mindfulness goes wrong

http://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=350

What is your experience with Meditation/mindfulness?

I think you may be right. Mindfulness and Meditation was never a good option for me. I couldn't concentrate on the M&M and not wonder off into another place. But that's just my experience. I hope in time I will get more control over that.

[GeminiNZ]

i struggle with both mindfulness and meditation. this quote from the first article resonated: Mindfulness opens a door, and it's important to understand that more than one kind of experience can fit through that doorway.

i tend to end up more dissociated and less grounded, and sometimes just flat out triggered or in flashback. pretty much the opposite of what i'm trying to achieve.

i find doing mindfulness in very tiny bits, for just a moment or two, has been more effective. like, today i went for a walk to the beach and i noticed the water, then a while later looked in a rockpool and noticed what was in there, and then focused on some stones, felt the breeze on my face for a moment, etc. just little bits and pieces. it was enough to help me feel connected to the here and now, but without becoming overwhelming. mostly i was just walking at the beach.

[Trace14]

Originally Posted by GeminiNZ

i struggle with both mindfulness and meditation. this quote from the first article resonated: Mindfulness opens a door, and it's important to understand that more than one kind of experience can fit through that doorway.

i tend to end up more dissociated and less grounded, and sometimes just flat out triggered or in flashback. pretty much the opposite of what i'm trying to achieve.

i find doing mindfulness in very tiny bits, for just a moment or two, has been more effective. like, today i went for a walk to the beach and i noticed the water, then a while later looked in a rockpool and noticed what was in there, and then focused on some stones, felt the breeze on my face for a moment, etc. just little bits and pieces. it was enough to help me feel connected to the here and now, but without becoming overwhelming. mostly i was just walking at the beach.

Good point about that door and so true. The walk on the beach sounds wonderful. Hope you enjoyed that

[Amyjay]

A few months ago I told my T that mindfulness was just like dissociation. She didn't get it. But to me it's like you stop thinking about everything that came before and only focus on the present moment. For some alters that's exactly what they have always done. It's how we live. We never think about what came before this present moment of consciousness. It didn't exist. All that exists is this present moment, right now.
When our T was trying to teach us mindfulness it was like, well duh, that's exactly what we always do. I think for people who dissociate re-associating is the harder skill.

[DechanDawa]

I have practiced Buddhist meditation for over 20 years and am certified to teach mindfulness practices and for 10 years have taught both Buddhist meditation and mindfulness practices.

I agree that meditation practice can be very unhelpful to many people. Yes, I believe it can cause dissociation. I don't think it promotes the development of strong ego boundaries. In fact, just the opposite. So it can have detrimental consequences not just during meditation, but in relationships, work, etc., if a person has weak ego boundaries to start.

On the other hand, mindfulness practice is based on being aware of one's thoughts, emotions, environment etc. It can be very grounding. It is not the same as meditation.

Meditation practice, and mindfulness meditation practice are two very different things, and each has a different focus.

Too many people (including therapists) teach this stuff when they themselves are not really educated in these practices.

A meditation practice is actually quite difficult and one should not really be doing it without the guidance of a certified teacher.

Mindfulness is softer and more generic. A practice such as "eating an orange mindfully" is just an exercise to keep one centered and grounded, and I think it has clear and positive potential as a mental health tool. It should not cause dissociation. In fact, it could possibly help one to not dissociate. One can mindfully focus on the sounds in the environment, or on touch (such as when petting one's dog) -- and a good mindfulness practice to help with panic is to splash cold water on one's face, hold an ice cube, or slowly drink a glass of cold water. Mindfulness is like an anchor in the reality of one's sensations and experience.

The quote someone said above about mindfulness opening a door...should really be a quote about meditation. Meditation can stir up a lot of unconscious material. This is why it should not be attempted without the guidance of a certified teacher. It also might bring stuff up that should be dealt with by a therapist, and not a meditation instructor.

Mindfulness, however, should never do that. The purpose of mindfulness practice is just to...more fully appreciate the moment and one's experience.

Hope this helps.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Amyjay

A few months ago I told my T that mindfulness was just like dissociation. She didn't get it. But to me it's like you stop thinking about everything that came before and only focus on the present moment. For some alters that's exactly what they have always done. It's how we live. We never think about what came before this present moment of consciousness. It didn't exist. All that exists is this present moment, right now.
When our T was trying to teach us mindfulness it was like, well duh, that's exactly what we always do. I think for people who dissociate re-associating is the harder skill.

I think what you say here has absolute merit. I love it and I actually am interested to hear more about this because I think it could result in an entirely new kind of mindfulness practice focused on re-associating. It could be a practice that maybe links past with present through sensations as well as thoughts. This has so much merit and I am...well, pretty amazed at how well you articulated this. Thanks.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by StuffandThat

I've tried a bunch of guided meditations online but they all seem to make me feel a lot worse..

It occurred to me though that meditation and dissociation are very similar. So I did some googling and found out its known that M&M can be harmful to people who dissociate.

When mindfulness goes wrong

http://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=350

What is your experience with Meditation/mindfulness?

I just read the article on "when mindfulness goes wrong." What is wrong here is that mindfulness practice and meditation practice were mixed together. That's wrong. I explain the difference in my long reply in this thread.

If someone has the experience of not being able to catch their breath, or of not being able to breathe...it is due to faulty instruction. This should never happen! If someone is properly coached this would never happen. It points not towards the participant...but towards the class and the instruction being taught incorrectly.

The way I teach meditation one never closes the eyes. This promotes dissociation. Meditation should be practiced with a lowered-lidded soft gaze but with eyes still opened. Makes sense, right? We aren't trying to "trip out" into a dreamy state of consciousness after all.

I don't close my eyes in any meditation or mindfulness practice. Ever.

[Trace14]

Originally Posted by DechanDawa

I just read the article on "when mindfulness goes wrong." What is wrong here is that mindfulness practice and meditation practice were mixed together. That's wrong. I explain the difference in my long reply in this thread.

If someone has the experience of not being able to catch their breath, or of not being able to breathe...it is due to faulty instruction. This should never happen! If someone is properly coached this would never happen. It points not towards the participant...but towards the class and the instruction being taught incorrectly.

The way I teach meditation one never closes the eyes. This promotes dissociation. Meditation should be practiced with a lowered-lidded soft gaze but with eyes still opened. Makes sense, right? We aren't trying to "trip out" into a dreamy state of consciousness after all.

I don't close my eyes in any meditation or mindfulness practice. Ever.

Very good points about closing the eyes. Never thought about that, but that is when I start wandering off.

[pachyderm]

Over the years I have developed my own kind of mindfulness, which is just trying to be mindful of whatever my mind presents to me, and to try to examine it. This can be difficult, because some of the thoughts are difficult -- many of them are often stigmatized by society. So trying to examine them without condemning them -- any of them -- can be challenging. I think it is the right thing to do, nevertheless.

It is not what everyone seems to mean by mindfulness. It is what I mean, what I find valuable.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Over the years I have developed my own kind of mindfulness, which is just trying to be mindful of whatever my mind presents to me, and to try to examine it. This can be difficult, because some of the thoughts are difficult -- many of them are often stigmatized by society. So trying to examine them without condemning them -- any of them -- can be challenging. I think it is the right thing to do, nevertheless.

It is not what everyone seems to mean by mindfulness. It is what I mean, what I find valuable.

From what I have been taught this is mindfulness practice, exactly, as you have described it. The acceptance of all thoughts engenders compassion, first for the self, then compassion naturally expands outwardly to others.

[PsychoPhil]

Thanks everyone for their comments on this very interesting thread.

The Theravadin Buddhist meditation technique of mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) induces dissociative states for me even though it is a practice of being mindful of breathing and thoughts, and letting go of thoughts as they arise.

During my first meditation retreat in Thailand dissociation came along with states of "unconditional happiness." However, back to one of those messy hippie beaches of the time I had a very frightening dissociative experience dancing in a techno club with several subsequent panic attacks, that went away after months of living a quieter and healthier lifestyle, without meds and psych wards.

The funny thing is I can't explain why dissociation normally induces bliss for me, but at one point resulted in a horror trip. Maybe confidence the state is temporary and not harmful makes the difference. Or is it all about embracing the ability to dissociate as a gift and not a curse?

[Gus1234U]

learning to meditate was a life changing experience for me. in combination with the Binuaral Beat therapeutic soundtrack it re-formatted my brain. damaged neural connections were repaired, control was regained, and 5 diagnoses were put "in remission", including bipolar and panic disorder.

it's sad to hear that not everyone can benefit from what is, essentially, becoming more aware of ones internal and external conditions, and enhancing the brain's balance and functions.