[tiger8]

I'm usually not focused on my emotional states but in this year for a few months I had let myself slide into them because some emotions wanted to come up out of the blue and I decided I'd just let myself be that way.

Also, recently I saw a site online that was linked to from this forum talking about how emotional awareness is important. I tried the practices on the site about focusing on parts of my body to see what I feel. I ended up feeling anger in most parts and a few other things in other parts but mostly anger and I don't see how there is a point in magnifying my emotional states?

I'm a person who always got easily irritated, annoyed, angry but my default mode is easily getting past after releasing the irritation or anger by acting it out (in a way that does not cause serious harm to my belongings). This technique just magnified the anger and that felt stressful. I also did not see a point to having positive emotions magnified, see below as to why not.

So overall I found all this stuff did not help at all. It did not change anything, I did not gain any understanding from it, I did not get driven to do something that moves me forward, I did not get relieved. Nothing.

So what's the point?

And as for the intense emotions I got coming up this year from nowhere or coming from actual causes but intensified compared to my default way of being, I disabled those too recently because they were interfering with my daily life. Now I find that I'm not at all better off with them turned off either.

So what's the solution?

[BlueCrustacean]

How long have you been practicing the suggested techniques? Perhaps there are feelings of deep anger you've suppressed for a while that rose up when you started facing them. I think the point is to let the repressed emotions rise up to the surface so that they can finally be let go of. I've had a lot of anger issues myself, so I can definitely relate to what you describe.

I also had a similar experience with positive affirmations. When I first started positive self-esteem affirmations, I ended up feeling worse than I did before, with more intense self-loathing. I figured this was just my pent up emotions being let out, so instead of giving up I kept with it. Eventually the self-loathing thoughts subsided and I started to make real progress towards higher self-esteem.

Thoughts and feelings are only powerful when you give them power. When you feel how intense it is, yet see it for what it really is, just a passing feeling that has no real power, you can let it go any time you wish and move into a clearer state of mind. It takes time, of course. Progress can't be forced, or it just increases resistance.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by BlueCrustacean

How long have you been practicing the suggested techniques? Perhaps there are feelings of deep anger you've suppressed for a while that rose up when you started facing them. I think the point is to let the repressed emotions rise up to the surface so that they can finally be let go of. I've had a lot of anger issues myself, so I can definitely relate to what you describe.

I also had a similar experience with positive affirmations. When I first started positive self-esteem affirmations, I ended up feeling worse than I did before, with more intense self-loathing. I figured this was just my pent up emotions being let out, so instead of giving up I kept with it. Eventually the self-loathing thoughts subsided and I started to make real progress towards higher self-esteem.

The technique I only tried once. However I let myself feel the intense stuff for a whole 6 months. So, I think that counts. As it's the same thing basically, just more spontaneous, not via a technique.

I don't like "maybe's" so I don't want to waste time on this just because MAYBE I have deep anger that for god knows what reason I MAYBE suppressed. As I said I always act out it when I get irritated or angry, I literally can't hold it in for more than a couple minutes. Even if I just hold it for a couple minutes, the anger will be much more intense when I finally release it than if I allowed myself to release it instantly.

I also do not need positive self-esteem affirmations as I have a well developed self-esteem. I see no point in loathing myself. No reason for it.

Thoughts and feelings are only powerful when you give them power. When you feel how intense it is, yet see it for what it really is, just a passing feeling that has no real power, you can let it go any time you wish and move into a clearer state of mind. It takes time, of course. Progress can't be forced, or it just increases resistance.

This is the thing, if you feel it too intensely then it will just gain power over you. No, I don't believe in trying to force yourself to magnify emotions beyond what is warranted for the situation. No, you can already see what it really is even on a rather subtle level of intensity, you do not need to go over the top with the intensity level.

So I do not understand this. Do people not feel satisfied with having the subtle level and they want to have it go more intense for no reason?

[BlueCrustacean]

Originally Posted by tiger8

This is the thing, if you feel it too intensely then it will just gain power over you. No, I don't believe in trying to force yourself to magnify emotions beyond what is warranted for the situation. No, you can already see what it really is even on a rather subtle level of intensity, you do not need to go over the top with the intensity level.

So I do not understand this. Do people not feel satisfied with having the subtle level and they want to have it go more intense for no reason?

I agree, there's no need to play up emotions, just see your thoughts as exactly what they are, thoughts, and then continue with what you feel is more productive to do. Ruminating certainly does no good. Yet you mentioned that just focusing on parts of your body brought up feelings of intense anger. It doesn't make sense to feel anger when you're focusing just on your physical body, as your body is pretty neutral, unless you've got some deeply negative feelings that need to be addressed.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by BlueCrustacean

I agree, there's no need to play up emotions, just see your thoughts as exactly what they are, thoughts, and then continue with what you feel is more productive to do. Ruminating certainly does no good. Yet you mentioned that just focusing on parts of your body brought up feelings of intense anger. It doesn't make sense to feel anger when you're focusing just on your physical body, as your body is pretty neutral, unless you've got some deeply negative feelings that need to be addressed.

OK so are those techniques for people who are absolutely not able to focus on their emotions otherwise? I'm not naturally focused on them myself but I can make myself tune in to stuff if I want to. So I don't know if that's why I feel this stuff is unnecessary even thought I was told I seriously lacked emotional awareness?

The techniques I tried involve focusing on your body to bring up feelings. I'm not sure if that's real or what, not sure on the mechanism of this beyond the general idea that emotions do manifest in the body, but yes I did get a feeling of anger in many places.

Can you say more on this idea of this being proof for having hidden deeply negative feelings?

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by BlueCrustacean

How long have you been practicing the suggested techniques? Perhaps there are feelings of deep anger you've suppressed for a while that rose up when you started facing them. I think the point is to let the repressed emotions rise up to the surface so that they can finally be let go of. I've had a lot of anger issues myself, so I can definitely relate to what you describe.

Also this part of your earlier post, I forgot to ask about it, the thing is I do not see how you let go of the anger just because it's managed to come to the surface.

As I already indicated, this is my main issue with the idea of improving emotional awareness, if I manage to experience an emotion that I did not focus on before, I don't learn anything from it. It does not have a meaning or direction or a visible reason for it, it's just an emotion in the moment, nothing more nothing less.

My default usually unemotional mode includes me becoming subtly aware of some emotional states when I find it's necessary and these are immediate reactions to situations so I always know the reason causing them so I know how to address them.

But this anger thingie that came up, I cannot see a reason because it is not a direct immediate reaction to some situation. So what do I do with it then?

[Thunder Bow]

After reading all your posts, I think you already found your "solution". Just follow the path you are on. Angers and all.

[BlueCrustacean]

Originally Posted by tiger8

Also this part of your earlier post, I forgot to ask about it, the thing is I do not see how you let go of the anger just because it's managed to come to the surface.

As I already indicated, this is my main issue with the idea of improving emotional awareness, if I manage to experience an emotion that I did not focus on before, I don't learn anything from it. It does not have a meaning or direction or a visible reason for it, it's just an emotion in the moment, nothing more nothing less.

My default usually unemotional mode includes me becoming subtly aware of some emotional states when I find it's necessary and these are immediate reactions to situations so I always know the reason causing them so I know how to address them.

But this anger thingie that came up, I cannot see a reason because it is not a direct immediate reaction to some situation. So what do I do with it then?

I think you're on the right track, the fact that as you said, the emotion does not have a meaning or a reason and it's just a momentary thing. You can't be angry anymore when you truly realize that it's just your thoughts, and it's not caused by external factors. No person, place, thing, can *make* you angry. You don't have to embrace or fight the thoughts away, just notice them as a natural process of your mind and then let go.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

After reading all your posts, I think you already found your "solution". Just follow the path you are on. Angers and all.

What do you mean? Be direct. I don't like the way you put solution in quotes. So yes, be direct in expressing yourself. I'm all ears. I don't need useless sarcasm that is not on point as per my thread's purpose.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by BlueCrustacean

I think you're on the right track, the fact that as you said, the emotion does not have a meaning or a reason and it's just a momentary thing. You can't be angry anymore when you truly realize that it's just your thoughts, and it's not caused by external factors. No person, place, thing, can *make* you angry. You don't have to embrace or fight the thoughts away, just notice them as a natural process of your mind and then let go.

The thing is, I was not thinking anything when I tried these techniques. So how do I know what thoughts caused the emotion earlier?

[Thunder Bow]

"Solution", Solution, solution, or Solution, as underlined etc.. means I am highlighting, or pointing out you already have a solution your acting on. Keep up the good work! I was giving you a high five, and a compliment. No Sarcasm Intended.

[snickie]

Quotation marks are not for emphasis unless you wish to emphasize that someone else is talking or said what you're saying, or you're using written quotation marks as the air quotes one makes when being sarcastic.
Grammatical rant aside....

I don't know too much about my emotional side and I try not to delve too deeply into it. When I do I usually end up in some state between self-loathing and completely apathetic (which is different but closely related to neutral) and I call this my existential crisis mode. That being said, I try not to harbor or express a lot of feelings more than amusement (includes joking and sarcasm) (full-on happiness is kind of a myth to me), mild irritation ("well that pisses me off"), and general neutrality.
When I'm beyond agitated, I tend to tense up and become more snappish because I just want people to leave me alone and they won't. I sometimes want to throw things but:
1) I know I'll be reprimanded if I do, and that's enough to drive me into existential crisis mode which makes me feel much worse.
2) the tension is still there after I throw the thing (unless the thing is my phone and it happens to turn off the alarm when I throw it) and I feel stupid for having punched/thrown/slammed the thing and now it's all the way over there and I have to get it and I don't want to go over there. And then it ends up being broken or whatever and it's my fault and that's just annoying.

When I'm really angry, I cry and then I'm even more angry at myself for crying which in turn leads to more crying. Crying is annoying.

Happiness is similar. I'm really good at squashing down happiness, though when it's not so easy to squash down I'll go do a lap around the building of something and then I'll be back to neutral. I don't remember feeling particularly happy or excited when my band got straight superiors at district level my freshman year so we got to go to State, but I do remember jumping up and down and my parents were like "Whoa, she's excited. Haven't seen her like that before." I get happy for other things too but expression of blatant happiness is usually foreign. Actually I hate the word happy. Anyway.

Expression is annoying because then people react to your expression and then you have to react to their reactions and interacting with people is annoying (most of the time). I just had an interaction with my roommate about her duties in cleaning the bathroom. It's our turn. I did the trash can and the shower drain. She needs to do some part of it. She doesn't think she should have to and plans to start using the community bathroom (on the other side of the building and/or up a flight or two of stairs) all the time instead so that she doesn't hold responsibility for dirtying up the bathroom and therefore no obligation to clean it. I'm very agitated right now, but I can handle this level of agitation.


I realize probably none of this is helpful at all. XD

Other than perhaps I agree with your question. What is the point of emotional awareness techniques? When I think about emotions I usually end up manually dredging up thoughts and experiences instead of letting them flow naturally and that almost inevitably leads into existential crisis mode. When I journal I usually have a few topics I want to talk about and then I let myself get sidetracked by some tangentially related anecdote and then I get upset at myself for sidetracking, especially if it's a lengthy sidetrack, and this is usually reflected in my writing. I'm lucky I've managed to stay on topic for this long. (Or have I?)

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

"Solution", Solution, solution, or Solution, as underlined etc.. means I am highlighting, or pointing out you already have a solution your acting on. Keep up the good work! I was giving you a high five, and a compliment. No Sarcasm Intended.

Quotation marks are not meant to be used for the purpose of emphasis.

Where I saw you as sarcastic was mainly where you said "angers and all". Do you really think it's useful long term to be not aware of what the source of an emotion is? Not that I see anger as a "bad" thing but this experience here as described really took my attention.

Anyway, I don't think I have a full solution to everything yet or I would not be posting here, simple as that.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by snickie

I don't know too much about my emotional side and I try not to delve too deeply into it. When I do I usually end up in some state between self-loathing and completely apathetic (which is different but closely related to neutral) and I call this my existential crisis mode. That being said, I try not to harbor or express a lot of feelings more than amusement (includes joking and sarcasm) (full-on happiness is kind of a myth to me), mild irritation ("well that pisses me off"), and general neutrality.

Interesting. I'm more in touch with anger related emotions but I'm pretty neutral otherwise, a bit like you, the happiness thingie I don't focus on much either, not because it's a myth, I just don't see it as the end goal to just feel happiness and nothing else.

Do you know why you have the existential crisis thing?

When I'm beyond agitated, I tend to tense up and become more snappish because I just want people to leave me alone and they won't. I sometimes want to throw things but:
1) I know I'll be reprimanded if I do, and that's enough to drive me into existential crisis mode which makes me feel much worse.
2) the tension is still there after I throw the thing (unless the thing is my phone and it happens to turn off the alarm when I throw it) and I feel stupid for having punched/thrown/slammed the thing and now it's all the way over there and I have to get it and I don't want to go over there. And then it ends up being broken or whatever and it's my fault and that's just annoying.

When I'm really angry, I cry and then I'm even more angry at myself for crying which in turn leads to more crying. Crying is annoying.

We work differently 2) would make me feel satisfied, lol, and I don't throw things that I would regret throwing afterwards (because say, I would have to pay a lot to replace it if it breaks). Btw I think it's ok for you to cry, an emotion is just an emotion, don't judge yourself for it. You're better off figuring out what causes it once you're aware of it.

Expression is annoying because then people react to your expression and then you have to react to their reactions and interacting with people is annoying (most of the time). I just had an interaction with my roommate about her duties in cleaning the bathroom. It's our turn. I did the trash can and the shower drain. She needs to do some part of it. She doesn't think she should have to and plans to start using the community bathroom (on the other side of the building and/or up a flight or two of stairs) all the time instead so that she doesn't hold responsibility for dirtying up the bathroom and therefore no obligation to clean it. I'm very agitated right now, but I can handle this level of agitation.

Well tell her you are going to lock the bathroom, lol. (And do actually lock it up! Keeping the key to yourself)

I realize probably none of this is helpful at all. XD

Eh no worries

Other than perhaps I agree with your question. What is the point of emotional awareness techniques? When I think about emotions I usually end up manually dredging up thoughts and experiences instead of letting them flow naturally and that almost inevitably leads into existential crisis mode. When I journal I usually have a few topics I want to talk about and then I let myself get sidetracked by some tangentially related anecdote and then I get upset at myself for sidetracking, especially if it's a lengthy sidetrack, and this is usually reflected in my writing. I'm lucky I've managed to stay on topic for this long. (Or have I?)

Well my question wasn't just rhetorical. I'm thinking if I can identify the source of stuff then I can discover more psychological mechanisms of myself based on unconscious thoughts. And I like the idea of making unconscious thoughts conscious because then you can control them, change them if needed, etc. It doesn't mean I want to entirely change myself, just some thoughts if they need updating.

This is of course all with the assumption that there are such thoughts that I'm not yet aware of.

But I do agree with seeing no point in amplifying emotions for the sake of amplifying and no more.

And lol no you didn't always stay on topic hahah

[Thunder Bow]

Originally Posted by tiger8

Quotation marks are not meant to be used for the purpose of emphasis.

Where I saw you as sarcastic was mainly where you said "angers and all". Do you really think it's useful long term to be not aware of what the source of an emotion is? Not that I see anger as a "bad" thing but this experience here as described really took my attention.

Anyway, I don't think I have a full solution to everything yet or I would not be posting here, simple as that.

I am sorry you are taking such a negative tack on this. You got more going for you than you think. I will not being posting on your thread anymore.

[snickie]

Originally Posted by tiger8

Interesting. I'm more in touch with anger related emotions but I'm pretty neutral otherwise, a bit like you, the happiness thingie I don't focus on much either, not because it's a myth, I just don't see it as the end goal to just feel happiness and nothing else.

Do you know why you have the existential crisis thing?

I'm sure it has something to do with the heaping expectations my parents have on me, get straight As, get a degree or twenty, get a lucrative job doing something I like, have enough funds saved up for a rainy day, marry well, be a generally perfect daughter, etc. Oh, and produce grandchildren (not really).

I'm going to put the next part in trigger tags because it is long and kind of sort of unrelated.

Possible trigger:

Thing is, right now I'm a music performance major and that's a really competitive field (aaaaaa child prodigies!). I'm the second best clarinetist in my class and so I should be further up in the overall ranks, right? Not to mention the stuff I'm reading about in Music History (Antiquity era) kind of shuns instrumentalists and that's kind of demoralizing yet laughable.

Anyway, so I'm also doing math, which I was good at in high school (took AP Calculus, got a 5 on the exam) but the jobs available for people with math skills aren't really that interesting to me, especially since I'm more interested in theoretical mathematics than applied. My parents like this path because it's lucrative and there are always job openings because lots of people hate doing math.

Thing is, as long as I can remember I wanted to do something in medicine. I loved biology and probably would've loved chemistry and I watched Discovery Health Channel more often than cartoons in elementary school. But neither of my majors really prepares me for med school and plus I don't like seeing what people are going through in regards to insurances and government and all that stuff. My mom likes the idea of me being a doctor. But all the extra schooling and classes it would take just so I could even take the MCAT are expensive and I feel pressured and guilted about it and I might as well give up the idea and continue into this math/music hybrid thing to which I have chained myself.

It's not like I even know which one is the one I want to be doing for my whole life. I also have this mindset that each career path is mutually exclusive (which I know to be false, and I've somewhat overcome this by double majoring now in math and music). My interests shift but these and drawing are the only ones that have remained constant. (Drawing's not even an option for me, btw.)

So existential crises form from that and tend to go along the lines of "what the bleepity bleep am I doing with my life, I'm just wasting it, everything is meaningless, emotions are meaningless, life is meaningless" and a whole bunch of related journaling which usually ends after an hour or so.

There's also, I get really annoyed with having relatives over and inevitably I'll snap or say something inherently rude to them. Then my mom reprimands me and then I start hating myself because I fail at even pretending to be a decent human being and caring and stuff. That puts me into contract-writing mode, which usually coincides with existential crisis mode.

Also, you're right. Happiness isn't really a myth; it's just so fleeting and temporary in its purest form that I don't see a need to spend so much energy pursuing it. I mean, I enjoy watching Netflix but it doesn't necessarily make me happy. I enjoy doing random research on interstate highways but it doesn't make me happy. I'm no happier now that I know what a turbine interchange is. Having interests and likes usually only serves a lower tier of happiness, the one that houses namely gratification and amusement. And that's where I live because it's close to neutral.

Originally Posted by tiger8

We work differently 2) would make me feel satisfied, lol, and I don't throw things that I would regret throwing afterwards (because say, I would have to pay a lot to replace it if it breaks). Btw I think it's ok for you to cry, an emotion is just an emotion, don't judge yourself for it. You're better off figuring out what causes it once you're aware of it.

Crying just happens when I express high levels of anger/frustration. Liquid rage is a term I once heard used to describe it. I don't like crying when I'm that angry because it makes me appear overly emotional and then people start condescending/patronizing me or treating me like this fragile piece of china, and it seems like they're not taking me seriously. Also, crying while angry looks a lot like a tantrum.

Story time:

Possible trigger:

Once, when I was on my learner's permit, I had a dream where my mom said she would let me drive and then I got in the front seat, looked to the side (check mirrors or something), looked back up and was in the backseat and she was driving. I felt angry and betrayed by her and those feelings carried over into the waking world. It took months to get over it. Anything that triggered the memory sent me into raging tears and my mom laughed at me for it because it never happened in real life.

I'm fine about crying when it's for sadness. That's fine. But I hope you can understand my aversion to crying when angry.

Originally Posted by tiger8

Well tell her you are going to lock the bathroom, lol. (And do actually lock it up! Keeping the key to yourself)

Lol. That might work if we had keys for the bathroom doors. (The doors have deadbolts, but from the outside they can be turned using a quarter if someone forgot to unlock it after showering or something.) Locking her out of the bathroom means taking her room keys and making sure the suitemates never let her in either. Also I have two roommates.

Originally Posted by tiger8

Well my question wasn't just rhetorical. I'm thinking if I can identify the source of stuff then I can discover more psychological mechanisms of myself based on unconscious thoughts. And I like the idea of making unconscious thoughts conscious because then you can control them, change them if needed, etc. It doesn't mean I want to entirely change myself, just some thoughts if they need updating.

This is of course all with the assumption that there are such thoughts that I'm not yet aware of.

This is why I keep a dream journal. Then I can spend plenty of waking hours obsessing over what my subconscious might want to tell me through my dreams. But then sometimes a box of necklaces given to me by my ex-boyfriend is just a box of necklaces given to me by my ex-boyfriend, and open heart surgery is just open heart surgery. It would probably help too if I kept a journal of my daily conscious thoughts so I could compare them.

Originally Posted by tiger8

But I do agree with seeing no point in amplifying emotions for the sake of amplifying and no more.

And lol no you didn't always stay on topic hahah

DAG NABBIT I'VE HIJACKED ANOTHER TOPIC. Sorry, guys.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

You got more going for you than you think. I will not being posting on your thread anymore.

Well thanks if you really think so. Why not post more?

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by snickie

I'm sure it has something to do with the heaping expectations my parents have on me, get straight As, get a degree or twenty, get a lucrative job doing something I like, have enough funds saved up for a rainy day, marry well, be a generally perfect daughter, etc. Oh, and produce grandchildren (not really).

The bolded doesn't sound so bad to me

Thing is, as long as I can remember I wanted to do something in medicine. I loved biology and probably would've loved chemistry and I watched Discovery Health Channel more often than cartoons in elementary school. But neither of my majors really prepares me for med school and plus I don't like seeing what people are going through in regards to insurances and government and all that stuff. My mom likes the idea of me being a doctor. But all the extra schooling and classes it would take just so I could even take the MCAT are expensive and I feel pressured and guilted about it and I might as well give up the idea and continue into this math/music hybrid thing to which I have chained myself.

Well only you can decide if you want it enough to go through some trouble to get there.

I'm fine about crying when it's for sadness. That's fine. But I hope you can understand my aversion to crying when angry.

Yeah. Interesting, we are different there too a bit.

Lol. That might work if we had keys for the bathroom doors. (The doors have deadbolts, but from the outside they can be turned using a quarter if someone forgot to unlock it after showering or something.) Locking her out of the bathroom means taking her room keys and making sure the suitemates never let her in either. Also I have two roommates.

Uhhm I don't know the exact situation and the place so I don't have any more specific suggestions on how to ensure she keeps her part of this agreement.

DAG NABBIT I'VE HIJACKED ANOTHER TOPIC. Sorry, guys.

Lol well I commented on the stuff I had thoughts on.

[snickie]

Originally Posted by tiger8

The bolded doesn't sound so bad to me

It's the qualifiers: lucrative (pays well) and something I like. Being a lawyer would pay very well (assuming I'm successful lol) but I'm not sure it's a profession I would like.

Originally Posted by tiger8

Well only you can decide if you want it enough to go through some trouble to get there.

Want is irrelevant. Desires are meaningless. Life is meaningless.
I don't know that doctoring is something I want to do as a living so much as it is I really like cramming that kind of stuff into my brain... and then that seems like the logical career choice once I have acquired all the knowledge.
But then again it seems that way for all the subject matter I'm interested in.

Originally Posted by tiger8

Lol well I commented on the stuff I had thoughts on.

That makes you an enabler. You're enabling me and my threadhijackism.


We've gone completely off the original subject matter now. I love the Internet and tangents.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by snickie

Want is irrelevant. Desires are meaningless. Life is meaningless.

You sound depressed. You should fix that.

That makes you an enabler. You're enabling me and my threadhijackism.

Not really.

If you were here just with the intention to troll, **** off.

[snickie]

Not depressed, just confused. I think.

Last part was meant as a joke. The rest wasn't intentional trolling. I'll leave now.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by snickie

Not depressed, just confused. I think.

Last part was meant as a joke. The rest wasn't intentional trolling. I'll leave now.

OK cool then if it wasn't.

Btw I still think it sounded highly depressive, what you wrote, if you really spend a lot of time on those sorts of thoughts... it is not advantageous in any way to you at all to contemplate that stuff. I'm sure this is trivial advice but do avoid thinking those thoughts.

[mr.Paraplegarino]

I have a problem registering my emotions. I think maybe they are so shallow that they barely surpass subliminal thus leading to my flat affect.

[tiger8]

Originally Posted by mr.Paraplegarino

I have a problem registering my emotions. I think maybe they are so shallow that they barely surpass subliminal thus leading to my flat affect.

Is that a problem for you?

[mr.Paraplegarino]

yes. the only way i can tell my emotions is backtracking and even then i come up with very broad results. makes me feel a little dissociative.