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  #26  
Old Jul 29, 2019, 08:23 PM
Anonymous43089
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Originally Posted by tecomsin View Post
My problem with this concept "instrumental vs. reactive aggression" is how to apply it to people in my life. I have wondered both about my father and my last partner, who I've been no contact with for over 4 years. It's something that has puzzled me for a long time and I can't say I've gotten any further figuring it out.

I think you are saying that you are capable of both instrumental and reactive aggression, so they could even be co-existing at the same time?
Everyone is capable of both instrumental and reactive aggression to an extent, but psychopaths use instrumental aggression more than most other people.

Can a person be motivated by both instrumental and reactive aggression at the same time for the same behavior? If it seems that a person routinely tries to harm others in such a way that's deliberate and planned, but also caused by profound emotion ... I'd argue that person is probably a narcissist. It's kind of tricky with narcissists because they are driven by strong emotion, but they restrain themselves enough that their approach can seem methodical and emotionless. They put on an "air" of cool and calm, but they're really not. I think it's a control thing.

You might be able to apply it if understanding what causes the behavior helps you figure out how best to act. For example, a psychopath after a goal is going to behave a lot differently than a narcissist having a rage fit. If you understand what's causing it, you might be able to counter it.

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  #27  
Old Jul 30, 2019, 10:02 AM
tecomsin tecomsin is offline
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Yeah, I agree, and also think that both my ex and my late father were narcissists in the sense you describe. My efforts to counter it now are just about staying away from such people in real life. My father's was complicated by the fact that he also had bipolar disorder, and was an alcoholic. I went no contact with him years ago when he started calling people who I had never met at my workplace named "Peter" since I wouldn't tell him the last name of my boyfriend at the time, but his 1st name was Peter. He threatened to do this numerous times, but I refused to give him the last name because of how he had interfered in a previous relationship of mine.

So I got emails from people named Peter at my workplace, whom I had never met, saying they had talked on the phone with my father for half an hour and I should call him because he is very worried about me...

But my father is dead now. He died a few weeks ago. I did say goodbye to him on the phone before he passed after many years of no contact after that last incidence of interference in my life.

Maybe you can give me an idea if you think that was instrumental aggression?
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  #28  
Old Jul 30, 2019, 01:10 PM
Anonymous43089
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Originally Posted by tecomsin View Post
Yeah, I agree, and also think that both my ex and my late father were narcissists in the sense you describe. My efforts to counter it now are just about staying away from such people in real life. My father's was complicated by the fact that he also had bipolar disorder, and was an alcoholic. I went no contact with him years ago when he started calling people who I had never met at my workplace named "Peter" since I wouldn't tell him the last name of my boyfriend at the time, but his 1st name was Peter. He threatened to do this numerous times, but I refused to give him the last name because of how he had interfered in a previous relationship of mine.

So I got emails from people named Peter at my workplace, whom I had never met, saying they had talked on the phone with my father for half an hour and I should call him because he is very worried about me...

But my father is dead now. He died a few weeks ago. I did say goodbye to him on the phone before he passed after many years of no contact after that last incidence of interference in my life.

Maybe you can give me an idea if you think that was instrumental aggression?
I couldn't say for certain without knowing all the details, so take this with a grain of salt. If I had to guess, though, I'd say it was primarily driven by emotion, particularly insecurity, which itself drives a narcissist's desire for control. It seems that your father wanted validation from you, and he wasn't getting that when you were in a relationship with someone else (at least, not getting the amount of validation he thought he needed), so he tried to control your relationships.

Like I said, narcissists can be a bit tricky because they put on this guise of low-affect and pretend as if they don't care about the opinions of others, but it's an act they use to hide deep-seated insecurities. Consequently, their behavior can seem like instrumental aggression at first glance.

I'm not sure if this helps at all, but feel free to continue asking questions if it does.
  #29  
Old Jul 30, 2019, 05:12 PM
tecomsin tecomsin is offline
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I can tell another story about my father and ask the same question: "is this instrumental aggression". It's the nominal reason I didn't tell my father my boyfriend's last name. It happened decades earlier when I had driven a long way home with the boyfriend i had way back in college. We drove to the house my mom was living in for Thanksgiving week holiday from uni. My parents were getting divorced so my dad didn't live there but would come around, apparently.

Well one morning I woke up and my boyfriend was gone. He had just disappeared and I didn't know what happened to him. This was before cell phones so I had no way to reach him. Well anyway a few days later, I finally reached him on the phone at his house many miles away.

He said my father had told him I was a horrible person and he needed to get away from me, so one morning he drove him to the airport and put him on a plane back to where we had driven from.

So I was betrayed by both my father and my boyfriend at the same time.

Then when I told my mother what had happened, she had no sympathy for me. The only thing she said was that my father did that to get to HER because she was divorcing him.

At the same time she told me straight up that she didn't like my boyfriend. She had said that to me also before he had disappeared.

So then, decades later my father wants the last name of my then current boyfriend and then starts calling people with his same first name at my workplace when I wouldn't tell him.

My father had bipolar and was an alcoholic too but I think he was also a narcissist.
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  #30  
Old Jul 31, 2019, 11:14 AM
Anonymous43089
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Then when I told my mother what had happened, she had no sympathy for me. The only thing she said was that my father did that to get to HER because she was divorcing him.

At the same time she told me straight up that she didn't like my boyfriend. She had said that to me also before he had disappeared.
Wait, what? I think there's something going on here that's been missed. Are you sure your mother didn't also have a hand in this?

Either way, I don't see anything to suggest it was instrumental aggression. Instrumental aggression is usually about money or something with monetary value. For example, if you were supporting your father financially and your boyfriend was trying to interfere with that, then your father trying to sabotage your relationships would be instrumental. In that case, he would only really be interested in the money, and harming your relationship would be incidental.

But I don't see anything to suggest that's the case. It seems he only wanted control because it made him feel better to be in control.
  #31  
Old Jul 31, 2019, 02:41 PM
tecomsin tecomsin is offline
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I'm pretty sure. My parents were not on speaking terms then. It is more than my mother had no empathy for my situation and in her mind it all revolved around HER. Both my parents were narcissists.

You seem to be saying that if there is an emotional payoff for the act then it is not instrumental, even if it was preplanned and methodically executed.
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  #32  
Old Aug 01, 2019, 01:19 AM
Anonymous43089
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You seem to be saying that if there is an emotional payoff for the act then it is not instrumental, even if it was preplanned and methodically executed.
Yeah, basically. Premeditated aggression is usually instrumental, but reactive aggression can be planned to a degree as well, particularly in your case considering he wasn't around you when he heard about your boyfriend, and thus he couldn't react immediately. But the fact that he was motivated by anger toward a perceived threat and it was an interpersonal conflict between close family members point to reactive aggression.

Like you mentioned, it isn't that cut and dry, as people are multifaceted and can have both emotional and financial reasons for doing any one thing, and their thoughts/behavior don't always fit neatly into the different subtypes of aggression.
Thanks for this!
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  #33  
Old Aug 01, 2019, 01:05 PM
tecomsin tecomsin is offline
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Thanks for your answers, theoretical. My father didn't have any financial motives but he did threaten to contact people named Peter at my workplace if I didn't reveal the last name of my then boyfriend, Peter, to him. He threatened this several times over the course of a week or so and then acted on his threat. So it looks very premeditated to me.
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