[ScientiaOmnisEst]

I didn't know what else to title this.

I'm in a numbed state right now after almost constant philosophical worry. Several day obsessing over nihilism and trying to discuss it online, includig a protracted conversatin with someone who claims to be an almost all-around nihililst (existential, moral, epistemological), and also be extremely psychologically healthy with no depression at all - if anything, he says it cured his decade of depression.

Depressed people, he claims, are nihilists who don't know it. That depressive thoughts like "It's all pointless" and "I'm worthless" are truths depressed people understand; they're just depressed by it because they can't accept the nihilistic reality that all life is lies and illusion, that the true, honest, good life you want to live does not, cannot exist, that meaning doesn't exist. It's kind of a projection of depressive realism...except there was a paper that showed that depressive realism isn't a real thing. The differences are so negligible, that the claim that "depressed people have fewer delusions" isn't really valid. Regardless, he said, letting go of delusions of standards and shoulds makes everything easier, reduces your suffering.

I don't know what to think. I'm not sure if I believe it. I find it hard to get my mind around the idea of not having ideals, standards, not comparing.

I think the whole thing scared me into the possibilty that my depression is about to be cured. The greatest source of my pain is self-inflicted pressurel but the weirdest part is I'm attached to it. It's....meaningful to me, the stress of perfectionism (even when it leads to laziness), the need to match my own standards. I can't explain why. But it hurts to think that I'm just being stupid when I do this, that it's all for nothing. That I'm deluded to feel my pain or effort means anything. It hurts, and I'm ashamed that it hurts, so I'm paralyzed now. I can't really consciously feel anything, I'm just numb and scrambling for coherence.

I might have seen what reality is, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. But other people accept it with no feelings, isn't that the correct thing to do? But part of nihilism is dispensing with standards like that, but doing so seems nonsensical. Is it any wonder I feel lost?

[Fizzyo]

[Onward2wards]

((( Scientia )))

You have high standards but seem afraid you will not be able to meet them, and that it is futile anyway.

You want life to make sense for you but seem afraid that it won't.

You want to live what is by your own personal standards a good and authentic life, yet feel this cannot be made to work.

So what is really going on? From my perspective. you are being consumed by your own worst fears, painful self-doubts and an absence of confidence. Anxious and depressed, perhaps. The positive thing is that you are questioning its validity - you did note that depressive realism isn't actually realistic, for one thing. I am beginning to see my own "It's pointless, it's worthless" thoughts as learned helplessness aka discouragement. Possibly that is what is going on here?

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

((( Scientia )))

You have high standards but seem afraid you will not be able to meet them, and that it is futile anyway.

You want life to make sense for you but seem afraid that it won't.

You want to live what is by your own personal standards a good and authentic life, yet feel this cannot be made to work.

So what is really going on? From my perspective. you are being consumed by your own worst fears, painful self-doubts and an absence of confidence. Anxious and depressed, perhaps. The positive thing is that you are questioning its validity - you did note that depressive realism isn't actually realistic, for one thing. I am beginning to see my own "It's pointless, it's worthless" thoughts as learned helplessness aka discouragement. Possibly that is what is going on here?

Maybe. I don't know. It sort of disappeared yesterday; it was weird. I've basically been normal since then. It almost feels like that whole incident didn't even happen but was some weird dream, though it obviously did.

It was certainly consuming in a way - I couldn't think, couldn't function, couldn't do anything. What I wanted, or thought I did, was a justification for living how I want, for taking life seriously, for doing anything. But if acting that way is wrong, I'd look ridiculous. If it's all for nothing, what business do I have caring about it so stupidly? If I'll just be working for nothing, why work at all? If my valuations are, by definition, false, and trying to say "they matter to me and that's all that matters" is self-delusion, what can I do that's valid?

I think something flipped in my mind to just stop caring.

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

Maybe. I don't know. It sort of disappeared yesterday; it was weird. I've basically been normal since then. It almost feels like that whole incident didn't even happen but was some weird dream, though it obviously did.

It was certainly consuming in a way - I couldn't think, couldn't function, couldn't do anything. What I wanted, or thought I did, was a justification for living how I want, for taking life seriously, for doing anything. But if acting that way is wrong, I'd look ridiculous. If it's all for nothing, what business do I have caring about it so stupidly? If I'll just be working for nothing, why work at all? If my valuations are, by definition, false, and trying to say "they matter to me and that's all that matters" is self-delusion, what can I do that's valid?

I think something flipped in my mind to just stop caring.

Nihilism as defined by the dictionary: a revolutionary doctrine that advocates destruction of the social system for its own sake.

This individual is abusing the language. Depression is not the desire to destroy society or one's self for it's own sake. Only a narcissist person who has no regards for life except their own would adhere to such an abhorrent philosophy. From my experiences people who suffer from depression either want to be unbound from it or understand it. It seems it is harder to loosen the chains then to understand and work within it.

As I said earlier; don't take just one person's opinion(including mine). Broaden your search and for God's sake please don't let this person bring you down. You have enough on your plate.

Regards, M Poirot

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by Herculepoirot

Nihilism as defined by the dictionary: a revolutionary doctrine that advocates destruction of the social system for its own sake.

This individual is abusing the language. Depression is not the desire to destroy society or one's self for it's own sake. Only a narcissist person who has no regards for life except their own would adhere to such an abhorrent philosophy. From my experiences people who suffer from depression either want to be unbound from it or understand it. It seems it is harder to loosen the chains then to understand and work within it.

As I said earlier; don't take just one person's opinion(including mine). Broaden your search and for God's sake please don't let this person bring you down. You have enough on your plate.

Regards, M Poirot

Where on earth does that definition come from? Nihilism as I'm talking about it is the realization that life is inherently meaningless; that the properties we assign to things are not inherent but are human constructs. Nihilism is supposed to involve learning the "truth" about reality.

What I'm suddenly wrestling with now is how the common reaction to nihilism, existentialism, appears to be rooted in delusion. Ascribing meaning where there is none, viewing order and value willfully, despite knowing they're human constructs. I don't know where to go at all. If I go on perceiving things as meaningful, even just to myself, I'll be deluding myself. If I choose to live a subjectivist life, fully indulging my personal viewpoints that keep things meaningful and beautiful, I'm living a lie. But I'm not sure what there is outside of it, other than something obscenely boring. But that weakness is exactly what I'm trying to avoid; being someone who "can't handle the truth".

In all honesty, I"m just drowning in shame and fear right now. I'm paralyzed.

[Fizzyo]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

Where on earth does that definition come from? Nihilism as I'm talking about it is the realization that life is inherently meaningless; that the properties we assign to things are not inherent but are human constructs. Nihilism is supposed to involve learning the "truth" about reality.

What I'm suddenly wrestling with now is how the common reaction to nihilism, existentialism, appears to be rooted in delusion. Ascribing meaning where there is none, viewing order and value willfully, despite knowing they're human constructs. I don't know where to go at all. If I go on perceiving things as meaningful, even just to myself, I'll be deluding myself. If I choose to live a subjectivist life, fully indulging my personal viewpoints that keep things meaningful and beautiful, I'm living a lie. But I'm not sure what there is outside of it, other than something obscenely boring. But that weakness is exactly what I'm trying to avoid; being someone who "can't handle the truth".

In all honesty, I"m just drowning in shame and fear right now. I'm paralyzed.

I looked up nihilism, it is as you say, but does that mean it's true?

Maybe you want to look into existentialism a bit more. I looked on wickipedia, it's not so much about deluding yourself but about creating meaning by the way you live your life.
For example, if, by the way you live, you make someone else's existence on this planet a little easier then that could create meaning as in if you can add to the sum of human happiness (or even just slightly lessen human suffering) maybe something positive has come from your existence.
It may be some art that creates beauty etc.

It seems it is more about facing up to the pointlessness of life and having the courage to create a point to being alive. That, to me is not delusional, it's courageous.

Maybe before you let this person's opinions about nihilism drag you down you want to read the original thoughts of some of the philosophers who came up with these concepts and decide which ones have merit and which seem to be unhelpful to a contented life, rather than go by someone's partial interpretation of what they think the particular philosophical idea might be.

Maybe you want to read some other philosophers before you decide that nihilism is "The Truth"

I like this aphorism from Alfred Delb,

Wenn durch einen Menschen ein wenig mehr Güte und Liebe,
Ein wenig mehr Licht und Wahrheit in der Weld war
Hat sein Leben einen Sinn gehabt.

Roughly translates:

When a person brings a little more goodness and love,
A little more light and truth into the world
Their life has had a meaning/purpose.

(Translation mine, apologies to any linguists and German speakers)

This always encourages me and I think there is truth in it.

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

Where on earth does that definition come from? Nihilism as I'm talking about it is the realization that life is inherently meaningless; that the properties we assign to things are not inherent but are human constructs. Nihilism is supposed to involve learning the "truth" about reality.

What I'm suddenly wrestling with now is how the common reaction to nihilism, existentialism, appears to be rooted in delusion. Ascribing meaning where there is none, viewing order and value willfully, despite knowing they're human constructs. I don't know where to go at all. If I go on perceiving things as meaningful, even just to myself, I'll be deluding myself. If I choose to live a subjectivist life, fully indulging my personal viewpoints that keep things meaningful and beautiful, I'm living a lie. But I'm not sure what there is outside of it, other than something obscenely boring. But that weakness is exactly what I'm trying to avoid; being someone who "can't handle the truth".

In all honesty, I"m just drowning in shame and fear right now. I'm paralyzed.

Any word ending in 'ism' is an ideology. You presentation or definition is but one definition of nihilism. There are two. The full definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary is:
1
a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless

b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2
a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility

b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination

I would have to sit down with you face to face to discuss the 'truth' there is in life. So many books have been written on truth it would fill a warehouse. To me truth is the following: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. They are constant in the human spirit. You are correct in your statement that much is subjective and of human construct. The pursuit of wealth(mammon), fame or power are three things that man seems to believe are of value but, for me these things are fleeting. Despite the human heart or, spirit as it were; not being tangible it is the deep things of life that this spirit searches.

I didn't mean to be flippant. Never give up your search for truth. You may be angered by some of the truth but pleasantly surprised by other truths.

Don't be ashamed. You are of value. That is a truth. Regards, M Poirot

[Fuzzybear]

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by Herculepoirot

Any word ending in 'ism' is an ideology. You presentation or definition is but one definition of nihilism. There are two. The full definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary is:
1
a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless

b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2
a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility

b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination

I would have to sit down with you face to face to discuss the 'truth' there is in life. So many books have been written on truth it would fill a warehouse. To me truth is the following: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. They are constant in the human spirit. You are correct in your statement that much is subjective and of human construct. The pursuit of wealth(mammon), fame or power are three things that man seems to believe are of value but, for me these things are fleeting. Despite the human heart or, spirit as it were; not being tangible it is the deep things of life that this spirit searches.

I didn't mean to be flippant. Never give up your search for truth. You may be angered by some of the truth but pleasantly surprised by other truths.

I just don't know. Well, I have ideas as to what I think, what makes sense to me - but I also keep hearing that it's wrong. I want so bad to be able to trust what I think and feel, but I know too much to do that anymore. At the moment my only solace is fleeing into fantasy. If this goes on much longer I might just give up on reality and escape into fiction for good.

Don't be ashamed. You are of value. That is a truth. Regards, M Poirot

Well, it might be. Nihilistically/existentially, no, it's not true. At best it's delusion. I think. I'm reading like crazy and writing elsewhere trying to get some sort of answer, but I guess my span of understanding is pretty limited.

Originally Posted by Fizzyo

I looked up nihilism, it is as you say, but does that mean it's true?

Maybe you want to look into existentialism a bit more. I looked on wickipedia, it's not so much about deluding yourself but about creating meaning by the way you live your life.
For example, if, by the way you live, you make someone else's existence on this planet a little easier then that could create meaning as in if you can add to the sum of human happiness (or even just slightly lessen human suffering) maybe something positive has come from your existence.
It may be some art that creates beauty etc.

It seems it is more about facing up to the pointlessness of life and having the courage to create a point to being alive. That, to me is not delusional, it's courageous.

That's what I think too! The interpretation I hear is that existentialism is about looking at all of existence's horrors, and finding a way to say "Yes!" anyway.

But what I keep hearing elsewhere, is that in order to say "Yes", you need to delude yourself that meaning can exist, that subjective meaning is relevant, that thinking something makes it so.

I feel an argument against this, but can't put it into words. Don't tell the people at PhilosophyForums I said that, it makes no sense.

Maybe before you let this person's opinions about nihilism drag you down you want to read the original thoughts of some of the philosophers who came up with these concepts and decide which ones have merit and which seem to be unhelpful to a contented life, rather than go by someone's partial interpretation of what they think the particular philosophical idea might be.

Maybe you want to read some other philosophers before you decide that nihilism is "The Truth"

One issue that keeps coming up, in my mind at least: is it better to live a truthful life (which would require embracing nihilism as truth) or a contented one. Existentialism tries for both, but if it's flaws are what people say it is, I need to fix those before I can accept it.

Or just learn to cast off the shame of being another delusional, weak idiot.