breaking isolation vrs. gag rule

downsolong,

venting can be a healthy thing, and it is something that does happen a lot here as well as in real life. I used to go with friends to the airport and just scream as the planes flew over and that was a great release. If I were to go to a hospital however, and walk in and just start screaming and complaining about my family or my job or whatever, that might still be a good release for me but it wouldn't be good for the people around, it might upset them greatly. Likewise I wouldn't start complaining loudly while I was at work, might make me feel better but also might get me fired.

It would be even worse to go into a hospital and begin complaining loudly about how poorly doctors treat people based on the experience you had. That may be true for you, and a good thing for you to vent, but it is not a universal truth and the people getting help might begin to feel shaky about trusting their doctors and that might effect their treatment to their detriment.

There's a time and a place for things. It is OK to vent here, but the members here usually appreciate some signs of understanding and trying to make things better rather than just 100% venting. And of course venting about some subject matter is verboten. There are reasons for this, it is to keep the community safe for everyone, and sometimes that does come at the expense of being able to say something that may be of help for the poster.

Religion and politics are not allowed to be discussed not only because it hurts people, but moreso because it causes arguments and that hurts people, even people who are not directly involved in the conversation. People here have VERY strong and very personal feelings about religion. Both positive and negative. Some people may feel deeply hurt by religion, others feel that their spirituality has been the foremost factor in their recovery. A discussion of such is going to alienate one group or the other. It is not a simple matter of "if it upsets you, don't read it" because for such deeply held beliefs, by the time you realize you shouldn't be reading it, the damage has already been done.

And I want to say again that this does not mean that there can be no talk of religion at all. People here wish each other well using spiritual quotes all of the time, and post inspirational messages, and I believe these are quite welcome. When religion becomes a discussion related to mental health recovery that is where people are in danger of being hurt.

This does seem to be an important issue for you. If it truly is a central issue in your health you should be able to discuss it, but this is not the place. You can talk to your doctor or find a support group that welcomes talking about these issues (not all do) or find other forums on the web, there are other mental health forums that talk a lot about religious issues.

Continuing to beat around the bush here, and to claim that the rules might be bad for the community here, isn't going to help you. If you really aren't sure, just post! If it becomes a problem we'll try to take care of it as best we can. I don't think anyone would want to be in a position of monitoring your messages before you post them, that's really not what this place is about either.

Even if you do have to find another place to vent some of your specific issues I hope you can still find comfort with other things that you may want to discuss here. This is a very trusting, comforting place. The rules are just an attempt to keep it that way for everyone, or at least as many people as possible.

"WARNING! WARNING! WARNIG! DANGER! Penny and Will Robinsons. I may have to suddenly...explosively **** molten virus laden Kryptonite" seems to need to preface my every utterance. Is that egotistical or what?
What to do first, when, how? Darned if I know.
Sorry for being so slow and blundering at this. I'm not sure I had that much to start with and for a slew of reasons, it's slow going at this point to process what to do next. The numbers of new people, relationships, interactions, sidebars, and my own mind muddle overwhelms me. Each experiment I make seems to be risky, at least it's 'just words', 'safe images' at this point. Right. How do I protect everyone from my little, deathstar virus ideas and yet express and deal with them (rhetorical, I'm trying to come up with my own answers)? I am human and therefore am almost always inherently an immediate danger both to others and myself..................................................sooner or later, take care-downsolong

"For every complex problem, there is a simple answer--and it is wrong!"
-Mark Twain

"What would you do if I sang out of tune...I'll try not to sing out of key..." -Joe Crocker or The Beatles

"Passenger can you hear me, destination seen unclearly...What is a man deep down inside but raging beast with nothing to hide..." -Donna Godchaux/ Grateful Dead

"It's just a box of rain..." -The Grateful Dead

(Dexter, here's one way I hope to avoid triggering unpleasant associations for others.

DOWNSOLONG: IT'S NOT ABOUT THEM. IT'S ABOUT US.

I've been lurking and making excuses about how I don't have the time to respond to you, Downsolong. I see so much of myself in you, however, that it might be time for me to speak up.

Probably most of us want to help ourselves in the here and now, rather than trying to change THEM (system X).

Long ago, when my life was about THEM and the power I had given away to them, I was a kneejerk reactionary. They owned me. I wasn't my own person. I was only a series of preprogrammed responses to whatever carrot-and-stick they used on me.

For THEM you can substitute any system, group, organization, institution, or political entity, including that institution known as the family. There's no need to name it.

Like you, I have had a lot of resentments about religion, politics, and various parts of the system. These days I don't play their game if the odds are wrong, or if they offer nothing worth the hassle, or I will work to beat them at their own game if it's worth the battle.

Yesterday I had a great day. After a 4-hour battle, I won. The system is missing a few front teeth, and it will think twice before trying to mess with me again. As Hannibal of the A-Team used to say, "I love it when a plan comes together."

I don't often do battle, however. I usually simply choose to accept reality as it is, that the system is the system. Then I move on to tactics and strategies that will get me more of what I need and want.

A TV character I like a lot was walking down the hall with his friend, who had been bitten in the butt rather severely by their particular system and was really smarting. The victim muttered, "The system really sucks." My favorite character kept right on walking, didn't even look at his friend, and merely said gently, "The system is the system."

Being sucked into an emotional involvement with a system that obviously has no heart and certainly doesn't have our best interests in mind makes no sense.

Why do we allow this? Because we cannot bear to be denied acceptance? Because we need approval so much? Because we're addicted to whatever carrots they offer? Because we're so afraid of the stick with which they threaten us? Because they push our buttons better than we push theirs?

Those questions are for ourselves alone, and the answers are nobody else's business. I had to ask them of myself, however, to find out why I kept focusing on the bad guys instead of playing games I could win. CHIEFLY, my rule now is to never play another person's game --- unless to do so is part of a mega-game of my own. Ahem! Pretty arrogant? You bet! And that attitude serves me well, which is why I keep it.

Even (or especially) if I am playing a life-or-death game, I am going to fare better if I focus on what serves my own interests and promotes my own welfare --- rather than focusing on THEM (system X) or their motives, organization, hierarchy, injustices, and generally evildoing ways.

I may choose to relate to THEM (any system), and may decide to play by their rules, but only if doing so clearly serves my own purposes. Even then, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, because all gamblers know the odds are with the house.

For that reason, I never do battle or negotiate except from a position of strength. Sometimes my strength is only that I can play the role of righteous aggrieved person better than they can play the role of wolves in sheep's clothing. That can be enough.

I don't have to tell you the details of my encounters. I don't even have to tell you what system I beat at their own game. And I can just tell you in general what I do to keep my socks up when I take a loss. I can quote you GENERIC situations (money denied, approval denied, wrongful punishment dished out, reputation attacked, benefits wrongfully withheld, etc.).

If I keep the situations GENERIC, and not tied to a particular system or institution or group, seems the chances are good that nobody here will have unpleasant associations triggered.

Isn't this board about sharing our tactics and strategies for survival? These are GENERIC situations, sets of choices, conflicts, skill sets in action, and conflict resolutions. It profits me more to learn good GENERIC MOVES, which can be applied to any game, than to focus on and communicate about specific games or gamesters.

I see a win/win here. What do you think, Downsolong?

Adieu

wow quite a post, and adieu I would love to discuss this more with you some time.

We are allowed to discuss systems and even how the systems, though political, affect us. What we shouldn't do is get caught up in the blame games of who ran what to get what in the politics of it all... and with religion, again, state the facts but don't blast the individuals. None of us list names and such here and condemn them... so that is the same.

I have blasted the system that is mismanaging my health care. And it is in bad shape because of politicians, by the way... but it isn't because of one party or another, or one governor or another president... it is because lawmakers in general allow them to operate like this, and so they take advantage of the law.

We are more open to discuss such topics in chat, and down, Iwas surprised that you didn't open up more last night... but you can take your time. When in chat, we just ask if it would bother anyone if ... and then as a group we decide how to handle it. Sometimes a person that might be triggered would rather go do other stuff and let the chat continue along that vein. Somethings there are too many in the room who can't handle it, and so we don't.

My last post here contains a misspelling that might imply something I never intended or would intend. I don't know how to edit it now . I've notified a moderator and pmed doc John and hopefully it will be gone before I send this edit request.- apologies -Downsolong

aw down, just spell it out for us. lol pun intended.

I am a little tired of beggining DownSoLong to tell us. Perhaps the secret is so painful that it is best disclosed with a therapist.

....Hmmmmm..........LOLOL....someone's spamish potty humor that was a bit of a slow burn that broke my tension, pretty well actually, gets deleted but my requested edit gets ignored. What's up with that doc?

Hi Wants2fly,
It looks like you win the prize for recognizing my reference to an old book title. 'Been down so long it looks like up to me' by Richard Farina, I read it in '72, I think, and it contributed to my awakening from childhood naiveté. I like his music even better. 'The Best of Mimi and Richard Farina' was the first album I ever bought. The song "House Un-American Blues Activity Dream", "Presidential candidates in new levis jeans, blind mother justice making war on the poor..." seems on the money today.
I've been hesitant to respond to you because of the 12-step issues, and my own volatile, yet depression suppressed to a crawl thinking. I've never been a good letter writer, this new to me. I've been concerned that you were in a precarious state yourself, but you seem to be holding it together in spit of the challenges. Keep at it girl.
I think you are right regarding the guidelines and yet I feel quite stifled here. When depressed it's almost impossible for me to sift my words and thoughts to suit regulations that while they may be necessary for the comfort of some are not well suited to my needs to speak and think freely, directly, and on all pertinent and related subjects. I have enough trouble writing a coherent sentence without guidelines when I'm in the grips of the beast. If I'm able to deal with that here (a question that has me bouncing off walls still), I may be able to get started. I'm reminded of and old Philip Roth? Book, narrated as thought talking to his therapist, at the end of which his T asks 'ok, are you ready to start?' Lol.
No, I don't have a T now. I've blown though or been blown off by 12 I think so far, I've often felt unbearable frustration with them as though instead of helping me out of my pit they've been tossing down, pennywise rationed, crumbs; or just didn't know what to do. I think I'm historically in a mental health system bridge state that has progressed beyond; "One flew over the cuckoo's nest", through "Girl Interrupted" to my experience and the present. I've never been hospitalized and won't be, what with the systemic discrimination against smokers (a fighting subject for me), but death has often offered it's 'oh so tender mercies'. I don't know what the state of the art is as I can't afford it. For now what I can find online is it, as I'm estranged from my local mental health clinic by seemingly pervasive endemic cultural differences and my perception of gross systemic neglect and a resulting incompetence for dealing with complicated cases.
By the way, with your writing experience, do you have any tips on proofreading and deadlines? -Down

PS.- difficult experiment in assertiveness or am I just kneejerk reacting again, got me?): It's taken me 2 weeks to write this individual response. I felt rather surprise-attacked and hurt by your last post here, you'd seemed so concerned and supportive previously. The next time you feel like you're begging for a response from me and are getting tired of waiting, how can I best put this, I recommend you ask yourself why you feel that way before, whatever?

-Sky, glad to see something struck you as funny even if your chuckle was at my expense. I'll geet you for that

Lady Dragus-You're a sweety near as I can tell so far and I was starting a note to you, but later with that. Anyway thanks.-Down

Ps. Could everyone be pacient with my slow thinking and writting please.

Your letter was much appreciated and seemed to be able to say something to me that seems clear if scary to me for some reason. Maybe the accumulative letters are starting to gell. I'm still going to have to process for a bit before I can know what I think about it. My thoughts are still in motion and I'm sure my attention is needed elsewhere entirely this whole time anyway, the looming "election" and all.-thanks for now-Down

I'm new here and read some (not all) the posts in this thread. I just want to voice my general opinion, not directed at or targetting any specific people or groups, that in my experience it is NOT just about individual people that have hurt someone (like the person with the "accountant" analogy suggested). In my experience there are TOXIC belief systems and enculturated environments bred from them which (a) actively work and self-propagate through books, literature, meetings, discussions, media, etc. and cause harm WITHOUT the direct presence of any individual representing them required; and (b) which, through being embraced by groups of people, become an active force in this world to abuse and harm others, even in some cases encourage it (though that's always presumably "for one's own good" [in religion] or "for the common good" [in politics]).

I can understand the reason for the 'gag rule' on this site -- we are all different and have had different experiences, and in some cases one man's feast is another man's poison, so to speak. The gag rule keeps us from negatively triggering each other and/or not being able to integrate as a helpful/supportive community when any individual, because of their affiliations, becomes a "representation" of that toxic/abusive system to another individual. However, I disagree with the proposition that there is no systemic/environmental issue here and it's just a matter of individual people who have caused the harm. In my experience there are harmful systems out there, and they are active today.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for listening.
~Mal