DID and schizophrenia

Ive been told in the past that its nearly impossible to have both and that one is often mistaken for the other. This thread is in part a spinoff from a thread in the schizophrenia section. But i am here because my current diagnosis is once again DID. A diagnosis ive had for going on 11 years. However, ive also been given the scizophrenic diagnosis for about 12 years but it is currently ruled out by my t and pdoc. I am aware that some of the symptoms mimic eachother but is it possible to have both? Dad is a schizophrenic, but that does not take away the trauma that brought about the blackouts nor does it change the blackouts and reasons for my DID diagnosis. But because i have blackouts, and such, does also not mean that the genetic disorder could not have been carried on to me, since i often have those symptoms as well. Im not looking for another diagnosis to add to my collection, it just seems that my t believes it has to be one or the other. Its my understanding that schizophrenia is a physical brain disorder, that is often inherrited, and DID is a disorder that comes with extreme trauma, so why can they not both exist at the same time? Id prefer to not be schizophrenic, but my prefrences have nothing to do with my mental state. I just want to know why t's and pdocs rule out schizophrenia when diagnosing DID and why they would rule out DID when diagnosing schizophrenia. Its to me like saying you cant have bipolar and generalized anxiety disorder, it has to be one or the other. But one is a physical condition, the other emotional/mindful disorder. Can they coexist or not? Im rather confused on this

Im using bipolar and anxiety as a example, have no clue if there is any truth to that, it just seems proposterous to me, like ruling out did or schizo for the other

Hi,

Schizophernia is NOT a genetic disorder and it is NOT inherited. Schizophrenia is an extreme reaction of distress with hallucinations and delusions. It IS possible to be be DID and also have psychosis just as it is possible to have a whole collection of mental health labels. There are some mental health labels that fit together better than others but there is nothing to stop someone with DID having psychosis also.

On a different point DID and psychosis can get mixed up or misinterpreted by some professionals at first glance but in time it is clear whether someone is DID or psychotic or indeed in the midst of DID and psychosis.

Thank you pegasus. I value any response from you, you are a very kind and intelligent user on this site and i greatly appreciate your response.

What i have been told over the years is that schizophrenia is inherited and a physical condition, that can not necessarily coincide with DID, however, the mental health field changes with new technology and scientists that things that were once believed are now completely disreguarded with new information. Look how far the knowledge of DID has come just in the last 10 or so years. This is a large reason for my thread and you have greatly helped with that. My current t continues to say that i would be schizophrenic if i were not DID, he hasnt come out directly and said it had to be one or the other but he continuously says that my symptoms are so similar to schizophrenia that had he not known i was DID, he would be sure i was schizo.
past pdocs and therapists always go back and forth, when they rule out schizophrenia is when the claim it to be DID, when they rule out DID, its to title me schizophrenic and it always changes their game plan.

I just dont understand why they rule one out to diagnose the other. I get internal AND external voices (however the external are not as frequent, only the external talk to me directly, but never tell me to harm myself or others) i have visual hallucinations that range from very small to extreme hallucinations, often though mostly shadows, ive also experienced tactile hallucinations as well. I have blackouts, the first when i was 5 and experienced an incredibly trumatic event, and have been known to change my personality during these blackouts, dissociating frequently throughout the day often loosing time, typical did diagnosis criteria but i also have paranoia, dillusional thinking from time to time etc. Just because i have one thing does not mean i dont experience other symptoms of something else, however pdocs and ts always try to help one diagnosis and believe the one but not the other.

Is it possible that parts have schizophrenia and other parts do not?

Yes a part can become so distressed that they have psychotic symptoms just a a part can have extreme anxiety when other parts don't.

Thats interesting, thank you. Perhaps that is why they always go back and forth in diagnosing me, just doesnt make much sense why my current t believes it to be one or the other. So in those cases, when integration occurs, would the whole take on that psychosis or would it be resolved before integration? In the schizophrenia forum where this thread was brought about by, does and as i have been told, scizophrenia is not curable only manageable (what the other thread objects to) would that ring true during integration, that the whole develops the psychosis or would it be able to be resolved before or with integration, as i have been told with integration the whole inherits the traits of the part, would psychosis not be one of those traits inherited?

Hi purpleflyingmonkeys! I am following you, spooky, eh? (just kidding)
I agree with Pegs that it would be possible to have both schizophrenia and DID. I think diagnosing one thing by eliminating another is definitely flawed, but I understand how it happens. If you go to the doctor with a cough, they might test you for strep throat. If it came back positive, they would treat you for it. They might never notice, until you don't get better, that you also have pneumonia. Plus, unlike strep throat, there's no real definitive test for DID or schizophrenia. So, basically, if the treatment for strep throat works, then you know that was all you have. If the treatment for DID works, then that may very well be all you have. Besides which, you're you no matter what you're diagnosed with. If they decided you had PurplePeopleEater's Disease, treated you for it, and you got better, then who cares what they call it??
btw, it made me feel happy inside to see you identify "internal and external voices." I have always made a differential in my head between inside and outside voices. Inside voices sometimes speak out my mouth, and they sound like the same location as my own thoughts inside my head. (does that make any sense at all??) Outside voices don't ever act as me, and they always sound like outside my head, like other people talking.
Good thread! I'll be interested to see what others have to say!

yes it is possible to have both DID and Schizophrenia at the same time... though they do share **some** of the same symptoms the diagnostic criteria for each is different..

for example

Shared symptom - hearing voices.

individual diagnostics of each disorder

Schizophrenia

delusions
hallucinations
speech and behavior disturbances like disorganized speech (rhyming, echoing, incoherent, ...) flat affect, alogia (very little talking) avolition (lack of participation, lack of motivation)
social dysfunction
psychotic features
problems not due to drugs and alcohol
problem has been apparent for the past 1-2 months

DID

the presence of two or more alternate personalities
inability to recall important personal information that is too extensive for normal forgetfulness
problem is not caused by drugs alcohol or other mental and physical health problems
cannot be attributed to invisible friends and fantasy play.

you can compare the two disorders at the DSM website http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx by going to the "proposed revisions" when the drop menu opens click on the mental disorder then inside that page click on DSM IV TR tab. that will bring you to the current diagnostics for each disorder.

I PFM, I followed you over here Hope that's OK.

Like I said in the sz forum, this is a load of nonsense. Psych categories are so arbitrary and political that clear boundaries cannot be drawn between them. Even the dude who came up with the word "schizophrenia" thought there were at least four different kinds of disease grouped under that label; but that's not how you hear it talked about today.

That is one theory amongst many; admittedly it is currently the most popular theory in certain (medical) circles. Nobody has ever proven it to be true (or indeed, false). Anybody who tells this to you as "proven" or "truth" is flat-out misrepresenting the scientific status of schizophrenia.

It's their idiocy if they're trying to do this, not yours! They should be focussing on helping you feeling better, not bickering about a bunch of completely arbitrary labels.

Frankly? This is a big fat lie -- in my cynical moods, I believe it's a lie propagated by drug companies to sell drugs to "schizophrenics".

Haha ive got followers ;-) j/k. Thank you both. I do grearly appreciate the responses and the original thread that brought about this one :-)

So lets say a person with DID has schizophrenia, would the whole of the system have it or just parts have it? And would this be sorted with integration or carry through after integration?

Ive often thought, things such as schizophrenia and borderline etc are more of how the brain processes and perceives the world, not something physically wrong. No two minds are the same, therefore no two mental disorders are identical between people. If this is true, it all can be helped by learning to rewire your brain, much less than medication that effects the brain physically. Kind of like anxiety, meds can help but the best help for anxiety is therapy and relearning your thinking process. If this makes sense.

Im curious though, if it carries through after integration; for if it is cured with integration wouldnt that prove it is curable or would it be ruled out (the cure of schizophrenia) and thought of as a lesser form of psychosis? A false psychosis if you will.

Please take no offence to the last statement as i know that none of these mental disorders are fake in any sense, just also wondering how the medical field would explain the cure if it does so happen with or before integration. Im asking partly for my own peace of mind, also for curiosity purposes as i am far from integration

Schizophrenia/psychosis (what ever you want to call it) is an extreme reaction to distress so if you can get rid of most of the distress, the psychotic symptoms will lessen. Your treatment for DID will involve a great deal of healing which may lead to full integration which could lead to the lessening of psychotic experiences. You'll also find that you will learn better ways of coping with stress so you are less likely to become distressed. It may be that you will have a tendency towards psychotic symptoms but you'll be able to manage it better.

You know, I could write a lot of maybe's, possible's, could's and should's but remember everyone is different and your system is different to mine or to other peoples. You are you, not a bunch of labels.

I don't know anything much about integration - DID is one of the few diagnoses I've never had! - but I've had the experience of getting better off the drugs that I supposedly needed for life, then being told that I "must not really be schizophrenic". The docs never bothered to change the diagnosis, though

Your questions made me think of that.

I agree with Pegs that, unfortunately, I couldn't answer that without a bunch of "could"'s, and "might"'s. There's a lot of different ways things might turn out. There's no real way to know until you're there. If I were you, I'd focus on the things I want the most, and work towards making those happen. Whatever else happens, happens.

Ive had the same tging happen to me as well. I have noticed, and noted with ts and pdocs that my hallucinations and all are at their peak at high stress times. But we can not control when bad things happen. Granted we can learn how to better react to stressful events, but i just assumed that seeing things would happen no matter my mental state, to some degree. Perhaps because the doctors have said it can not be cured with out medication.

I mean i dont know if im just crazy or what, but if i tried to, i could force mild hallucinations. Which i dont typically do, but they are just so normal for me, i dont think twice about them. And ive learned over time that they can be self induced. Like small things, the floor moving, the walls breathing (not talking about with drug use or anything) things small like that. But i dont intentionally bring them about, fearing they may make me worse. Would even the hallucinations such as these go away after healing from psychosis? Most arent too worrisome, i just blow it off, the shadows, full figured beings i see qnd tactile hallucinations that worry me

I don't want to confuse things even more but your 'full figured' and 'tactile' hallucinations could actually be 'flashbacks' which would be part of PTSD which often goes with the trauma of DID. Those flashbacks can be distressing which then lead to psychosis...

But the thing is you can heal from this.

During psychosis several years ago my identity broke and I displayed a crisis that led the doctors to diagnose me with DID. When my split identity came back together slightly the doctors changed my diagnosis back to schizophrenia. They don't mention labels much these days but have spoken about dissociation and schizophrenia with me. I do hallucinate and have auditory disturbances among other things and I do dissociate. This thread is very interesting. Thank you for posting.

as far as I know schizophrenia is not cured by integration of alternate personalities. treatment for schizophrenia is medication and therapy where as there is no medication to directly treat DID. (there is medication to treat PTSD symptoms that accompany DID for many people like anxiety, depression, but as of yet there is no medication to treat DID directly.)

when my alters integrated yes all their positives and negatives right down to including the alters mental disorder diagnosis became mine also.. example One of my alters diagnosis was psychosis (stress induced hallucinations, delusions, strange thinking patterns..) After integration because everything that alter was merged with me I now had problems with psychosis and still do at times. my medications (the same ones that alter was on) are the same ones I am on to take care of these psychosis symptoms, now that alter is one with me.

Thank you all, and sorry I missed your first and second response amanda, and they were very helpful and informative. It helps shed some light on the topic, and helps me to understand.

I don't however understand why they are looked at so similarily if they do in fact have many different symptoms. Some things I may never understand though.

I remember a couple of years ago when I was in a very difficult time, my "psychosis" if you will and my DID were extreme at the time. I was straight out dillusional, thinking perhaps everyone I came in contact with were in my head, were my other parts, that I was trapped inside with them and someone was out in the "body". I still get that idea from time to time, which is why I try to stay away from the schizophrenia board as well. I've lately been catching myself thinking things such as these, thinking I don't exist, thinking I'm not real or the world isn't real. Perhaps this is one of the similarities between psychosis and DID? isn't there a "real" factor in dissociation and in psychosis?

I'm trying to make it to the confronting abuse chat that was supposed to start 7 minutes ago, I will try to reply to everyone after chat

Please keep in mind that this is nothing more that speculation from a flawed perspective.

I think that integration could lessen any other non-genetic mental disorder. I think that (in my case) 8+ minds working together on one stressful issue would make rational decisions and problem solve well. However, if it is just one of the minds (Alex-Borderline Personality Disorder) dealing with stress, she could resort to SIing, smoking, drinking, self-destructing, because she deals with things in that way. I think that if we ever integrate, we as one could have slight BPD tendencies, but the diagnosis Alex has would be removed. (Once again, just presumptions, speculations, and assumptions....)

I have no definitive answer.... I don't think that anyone actually ever could... I don't think you'll know until it happens...

Emberlynn

PFM-

You're story sounds very similar to me. Every time you write about the seizures and everything, I always relate to you.

I have exactly what you say. If I'm really ill, I'll hear like voices outside of my head, but it's almost as if they're in another room speaking, if I turn on a fan I can start to hear music. Outside I may see a shadowy figure moving towards my dog. Or see one move across the room. I also get the tactile hallucinations. Like someone is brushing up against me. Or something is running up and down my back. I also get paranoid at times. Although it's a weird, complicated paranoid. It's not like I'm sitting there shouting "so and so is out to get me!" I become entrapped inside my head and hide everything, because I think people are going to use it against me. It's like I get trapped in there and I can't get out.

Anyone who I've ever had that specializes in DID says "she is absolutely NOT schizoaffective/paranoid schizophrenic, etc". But anyone who doesn't specialize will diagnose me right off the bat as have some type of schizophrenic diagnosis. It's not impossible, but it's very rare. And let me tell you, I saw a girl once who was both schizophrenic and DID and it made me a believer that I did not have both. She was extremely ill. Like NEVER felt good. Not even when her good alters came out, kind of deal. She was always constantly miserable.

Thank you lydia, you really do sound similar to me... I'm sorry... That was a part joke, part serious

I haven't often heard people speak about the fan thing, but boy can I relate. To almost any noise similar, air conditioning units, just a constant like somewhat quiet noise, turns into music or even sometimes sounds like others talking to eachother, but in a distance where I can't make out what is being said. But it almost always sounds like the noise morphs into something else. My paranoia is different as well. I'm not paranoid necessarily of one specific person, it's mostly of what I don't know, people I don't know. When my paranoia is peaking, I'm afraid though of the general population, feeling as if they are watching me taking notes, that I'm a guinea pig basically. But I fear strangers, kind of like people I don't know want to hurt me, I get the shadow thing ALL the time, it happens so much I ignore it now.

I think a lot of my t's kind of hesitate to believe the schizophrenia, and a lot of t's don't want to believe the DID because my appearance, and even the way I carry myself wouldn't make anyone think I was at all emotionally ill, but I'm a master at disguises. I know to keep my mouth shut when I need to. But I'm a lot more than the way I carry myself.

I don't really care what they call it at this point, I care more that these troubling symptoms get taken care of. Problem is now my t has said something that really concerns me.

While he said he and my pdoc are 100% sure I have DID, when I mention my symptoms that sound like schizophrenia, he states that if I were schizophrenic I would have to be on meds for life. Antipsychotics do the opposite to me, they make me psychotic. Not to mention now after today he's put quite a bit of pressure on me to prove I'm not schizophrenic, while there is a good possibility I were. The last thing I want in therapy in this sense is to upset my doctors, that's common right? Well today he said "If you were schizophrenic I'd be p*ssed". Now I just don't know. He is a good doctor. Heck when I had no way to go into his office and I was struggling from being kept up all night long by the internal voices, he came to my apartment for a last minute appointment, because I was doing so badly. But the pressure to prove I'm not something I very well could be is upsetting to me. Not to mention discouraging that he so blantantly admits something I couldn't help would upset him. Maybe I'm just being a baby about it. He's a really good t and has helped tremendously on many of my troubles already, but the comment today kind of was like a punch in the gut for me

Thank you! This is what I was assuming would happen in this case. It's interesting, confusing lol

Uggh this is exactly what I don't want. I tell people my "brief" psychosis episode was caused by a medication, but I had psychosis long before that, I just don't want to start into all of this confusion about what diagnosis I am and where I stand where, because it's so confusing. I am so sorry. I mean but I also have PTSD and I know PTSD causes psychosis. And I'm assuming you have PTSD also?

I'll get to this point where I start accepting a diagnosis "okay I am paranoid schizophrenic". And then wham someone else has something to say. Just this past weekend I was inpatient and the inpatient doctor told me DID didn't exist. Uhh okay so what's wrong with me? She said I was borderline. I said "I have never been diagnosed borderline in my life!" I just let her diagnosis roll off my back and I stick to professionals, because otherwise I would be pulled in 40 different directions. I am sticking to what Sheppard Prat has told me. To date they have done the best job at treating me, and the most thorough job at diagnosing me. So my diagnosis stands at

Major Depressive Disorder, PTSD and DID.
No Axis II.

It makes sense that as having different parts, that I would have different diagnosis. So I have a little meeting inside every once in awhile and let everyone know that "yes we are in fact DID and no we should not listen to that voice that tells us everyone is a liar". Because he makes up a lot of stories.

O and btw I had to totally go back and make sure we weren't the same people. LOLLOL

First of all, your T's whole attitude about this really angers me. You should never be feeling you're in a position where you need to "prove" you have or don't have any particular illness. You shouldn't have to spend your appointment worrying about what T thinks or feels, and whether you could be disappointing him by having symptoms for an illness he'll be "pissed" if you have.
Second, some people, including people with schizophrenia, are helped by anti-psychotics. If they are, great, they should take them! Some people, including people with schizophrenia, are NOT helped by anti-psychotics, and they should NOT take them! Some people are initially helped by meds, and can later wean off them. This attitude that a psychotic disorder means a person must now spend their non-life doped up for eternity with no hope of anything ever being better has to be the most horrible thing a T can ever say to a patient. (sorry for the rant but this really angers me!)