Alters and Their Ages

My alters seem to define their ages as the time they first appeared. Has anyone else found that ???

They remember things from far past their stated ages

But always their first memories are at the age they say they are

Can anyone else relate to this ???

I think that is quite common, (((zorah)))... sometimes alters age and sometimes they don't -- on their "own"... what happens when the decision is made to integrate often is the "aging" of an alter to the body's age..

It would seem to be sensical though, that the age of the brain/personality when the -trauma- the reason for that aspect to appear- would create a type of 'imprint' in the brain?

Good to see you posting... hope you are doing ok, at least.

z, I dont have any real answers for you because im new to this whole thing myself so I dont know much yet about the structure, just what I have researched.

I can see how that makes sense though definetly.

I am 23 but I do have an alter who presents herself as older, in her early thirties. So In that case it wouldnt apply, but i dont think that throws it out of the water completely.

My pieces of memories (alters) are the age that I was at which the abuse situation memory originally happened and got stored in my unconscious memory level of thinking. None of my memory pieces "aged" during the co conscious and integration processes. One minute I had no memory and the next I was experiencing that memory while remaining aware of both the present (My therapist and the room) and the memory that I was experiencing. and from then on that piece of memory has been a part of my conscious memorys and I could think about that memory any time I want and I do not act it out.

I do have some memory pieces that have said the age is one number and then another number older and younger. this happens because if someone has an abuse happen at age 10 that is simular or the same type of abuse as what they went through at an earlier age the two situations get stored as the same "file name" so to speak.

Sometimes a therapist will use hypnosis and ask the person to imagine that piece of memory as it would look if it was a person and then imagine that memory as a person that got older. but they rarely do that now. Instead the therapist works with the client on grounding techniques so that they naturally go through the process with co consciousness and integration.

You can read about my experiences with this process in my blog.

Zorah
my alters are similar to yours. They state an age, but have memories beyond that age. Some over lap in age and experience and contradict each other. It gets confusing....
w_i

Yes, I relate well with that in this stage of healing.

It seemed to me that memories, even new ones created, were almost "sorted" and placed with the part that held similar. In learning what I've learned that's become apparent to me about self.

For instance, when the doctor memory surfaced (I was adult), three separate "sections" of the actual event was held by three separate parts. That was wild to realize.

It's almost like...something tramatic happened and it was "looked" at and dealt with, then placed with the appropriate part of me. What happened if there wasn't a relating part? I wonder if that's when the "new" part was created...

Still learning...still wondering.

Good topic!

KD

Good Question Kimmydawn. Im assuming yes but don't know for sure. Its definately worth thinking about and looking into.

fascinating just fascinating. Mine breakdown into age/emotional age bits.

Hmm - I feel as though they come from the age one is when the tragedy happens and then again.... they come to protect as well..... I am 39 and I had a 79 year old that looked after all the little ones and she guided ME - a grandmother type of person.


LoVe,
Rhapsody -

... and then there's the: everybody likes a different diet part of my parts....

After sending lots of emails and making lots of phone calls the conscensus was unanimous - When an abuse situation happened and there were no pieces of memories already stored containing that memory of that abuse situation it is stored as new piece of unconscious memory.

One professional used example of a person dissociating because of being molested. They already have that memory piece stored. But if the situation involved r$%^ and there was no memory already there to match with the R$%^ act so that part of the abuse situation that has no match - the R#$% experience - broken down into the five senses and emotions - will be stored as a new pieces of unconscious memories.

For each abuse situation it is broken down into the five senses and emotions and matched with a memory that is already stored if that part of the memory doesn't have a match it is stored as a new memory and used as a match for future situations that contain the same information.

Another professional who knows I use lego's sometimes said its like having a set of legos that are whilte squares. . all the white squares get stacked together and then one day a white rectangle comes along and then you are matching squares with squares and rectanlges with rectangles and they just keep building upwards then one dat blue square comes along and it is set aside because it does not match the white squares and white rectangles but its there for more blue squares when and if they come along and soon you have wite rectangles and squares and blue rectangles and squares and one day red comes along ...

You end up with hundreds of lego's (memories) of a variety of shapes and colors (situations, sights, smells, tastes, sounds, textures, how we were touched and emotions experienced) all in one package (our brains).

So, my guess was right on that? It just felt right to me when I realized that the complete "dr memory" was held by three different parts of me. I thought I had it all...NOPE! I was given more, then given more from a completely different aspect. In fact, when I was given the first additional information, I had a police report to back it up but didn't even know which station to call. I was then given more...all validated on the report. T was amazed as this happened when we first started seeing him and no part of me told...

It was also at that time when I was shown how I just "fly away" and whoever can (based on what they are/do) has to deal. It was so telling to both my t and myself.

back to the children then, yes, mine are/were stuck at certain ages and accumulated from there...much past their years. These parts have helped me to function and live. They helped when I "flew". These parts stored the MANY memories and feelings that I couldn't know, and function with anything that resembled normal. Yep, I came to the point a couple of years ago where I was thankful for DID...when I started learning of this life.

We are indeed remarkable and gifted people.

kd

The only part of us that presented as older was "the mother"

She nearly drove us to non-functionality, but we've been throwing out every bit of her we can find

A protector older would be different, we think, but the only older alter we ever had was the critical ***** mother.

W_i, ours overlap too, we think some of them were swapping out with each other

We can't relate to the lego blocks theory, nor to what kd said about having 3 different parts to hold a whole memory

LOL this answer shocked you huh. Yes if there is no matching alter or as I call them memory pieces that piece of memory is stored by itself to be match in future abuse situations.

Know the feeling Zorah. I didn't understand the concept either until one day I was telling SKR that I give up picking up the letter blocks and legos because they keep ending up out anyway. She laughed. and we continued to talk and watching my cat bat around all these mixed shapes of lego blocks I suddenly thought of something -

I am like a box of lego blocks - I have many memory pieces (alters) and legos come in various sized sets and shapes. some have 9 pieces, some have 15 pieces, some have 50 pieces some 100, some have 700 and some have 1000. and they come in scuares, rectangles, triangles ovals, people, circles and so on. At that point SKR and I had 5 names and each one was different from the other because they each contained their own information (memory content)

Then I looked at SKR and said- too bad I didn't have purple legos for mary and pink ones for this one and blue ones for that one and so on and so on down through the the names of my pieces of memories (alters)

now using this lego concept to explain how alters can remember things at different ages even though they are the age that they were created -.

"mary's" lego block color would be purple because that is the color I liked when I was the age of that memory piece.

So I take a purple lego for every memory that is stored as "Mary" and stack the lego blocks on top of each other. Lets pick a number - 3 "mary" is the memory of three situations that got separated so there are three purple lego blocks in one stack

Using the same idea -

Mary has 3 purple lego blocks (memorys)
Katherine has 3 yellow lego blocks (memorys)
Darlene has 3 blue lego blocks (memory)

One of marys "jobs" (memory content) is talking in meetings
Katherines "job" (memory content) is keeping notes
Darlenes "job" (memory content) is numbers and math skills

Situation CRB court hearing.
At the court hearing I listen as everyone(the lawyers, DHS, therapists, me, sons foster parents, and so on) on the case tell about their part of the case and what they are doing for my child, any problems he is having and so on. I also give a report on my side of the case - that included explaining any changes to my therapy and medication, whether or not I had contact with my child and the DHS caseworker in the past 6 months and so on

Its a very short half hour meeting but I get nervious and stressed out, feel cornered and closed in and so on like I did when My abuser would corner me and the result is I dissociate.

So Im siitting there in the meeting and dissociate my brain matches what goes on in the meeting with my memory pieces (alters)

When the discussion turns to anything with numbers - dates, times places and so on I would switch into the "Darlene" memories.

When its my turn to give my report I switch into the Mary memories and I read the words on my written report that match the already stored "mary' memory content to those in the meeting.

When someone else is talking and I need to keep notes on what they are saying I switch into the "katherine" memories.

Its all one situation - CRB meeting
But I have switched into 3 different memory pieces (Alters) during that one meeting.

Those parts of the meeting that I switched into the "mary" memorys become a part of the "Mary" memories. Mary was created when I was 16. I am now in my 40's.

the "mary" memory piece age is 16 but because I switched into "mary" my memory of talking during the CRB at age 40 plus is stored as a "mary" memory.

Now Mary has 4 purple lego blocks - 4 memories that will get matched to and acted out when I switch into "Mary".

For each memory that matches "Mary" you add another purple lego block.

The same works for all my other memory pieces add a new lego block every time a memory is stored as that memory piece (alter)

And if a situation matches more than one memory piece (alter) that situation will be divided up and the matching pieces will be stored as the matching memory piece (alter).

reedited -

Thought I would come back and add something because a friend is here with me and she read my post and asked me a question and I didn't want to lead anyone to believe the wrong thing here like what she was just asking me.

This process of storing matching memories does not mean the "alter" is "learning new things" as in a biological person learns for example how to read and write or for example like in my blog use a cell phone when a cell phone was not invented when that memory was created.

What this means is matching things match with the same - Squares with squares, triangles with triangles, and so on

if it doesn't match somehow with the memory piece (alter) it is automatically stored as a different memory piece (atler).

Zorah--I think the same thing, some swap out. Can get confusing.
Myself--you don't feel that alters can learn new things?? ie, a child alter can't learn to use the touch tone phone instead of the old dial type??

Seven learned to drive the car, by watching the olders.

Seven and Three both learned to use computers that way.

It doesn't seem that likely to me, that all members have split in exactly the same way, and this kind of discussion should give us all more insight.

No it is well documented that a person who has "switched" into an alterneate state (alter) they can only act out what is contained within that memory piece, and a person cannot be made to act out anything that is not a part of that piece of memory (alter). This is one of the ways professionals have come up with on how to distinguish true DID from DID want to be's.

The DSM IV TR criteria on this issue is -

"The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern pattern of percieving, relating to and thinking about the environment and self)

the word "Distinct" means - "not identical; separate; different; clearly perceptible; definate; unmistakeable decided.

the word "definate" in that oxford essential dictionary deffinition of distinct means - "having exact and discernable limits. clear and distint; not vague."

Relatively means "related to, having mutual relations"

Related means "connected"

What all that means is that in this diagnosing criteria for DID - the "alters" are limited by what they contain. Their content is connected (the same theme, catagory, matches) The content must all be related. a person when experiencing a DID alter can only act out what is contained as a part of that piece of memory and cannot be made to act out any other behaviors because the "Alter" is limited and exact.

if the person has the ability to be acting out other things that are not contained within that piece of memory they cannot be diagnosed as having DID accoding to the DSM IV TR criteria

An alter (accoding to the DSM IV TR and professionals in the field of DID ) cannot be considered "relatively distinct" (connected (matched and limited and exact) if they can learn how to do things that are not a part of that separated piece of memory. If they can learn then they are not limited. they are not exact. If they can do things not already a pert of that stored piece of memory the content would not be matched with the same theme, catagory of content and they would not be exact.

Memories are stored throught the five senses - taste, touch, smell, hearing, sight, and emotions that we feel from what we experience though our five senses.

so if for example the mary memories is that of gagging during performing oral $%^. no matter when I would switch into that piece of memory I would be distinct - limited and exact- gagging. any future memories that are added to the mary memories would have to be distinct (limited and exact) to what the "mary" memory piece is - gagging. I gag with abuser when "mary", I gag with significant other when switched into "mary".
No matter the situation and trigger in the present each and every time I switch into "mary" I am distinct (limited and exact) when the meory piece was separated, later abuses and in present today, tomorrow, next week, next month next year 20 years from now each and every time I switch into "mary" I am "distint" (limited and exact) - repeating the same behaviors, and so on over and over and over again.

By the way "mary" the memory piece that I gag when I switch int the gagging memory piece. that just happened to be the name I threw out there for this post.

This is why in my blog I explained about my inability to post as an alter - computers were not around when I was growing up so I was never abused while at a computer posting in an on line support group so none of my alters contain the memory content. and even if any did Alters are distinct (limited and exact) when as an alter posting on online support groups I would only be repeating the same post over and over and over again. If I posted anything more than what was contained in that alter I would not be diagnosed as DID because that is not being distinct (limited and exact)

the same with phones. I grew up in the time period when the phone was a black rotory dial mounted on the wall telephone. Since in order to be diagnosed DID accoding to the DSM IV TR diagnostic criteria a persons alters have to be distinct my memory pieces are exact and limited to the black rotory dial mounted on the wall telephone. I cant use a cell phone as an alter because when those memories were separated and I act them out cell phones were not invented and touch tone push button phone were not out for residential use. If my alters could learn how to use cell phones and touch tone push button phones thats not being distinct (limited and exact).

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myself said:
No it is well documented that a person who has "switched" into an alterneate state (alter) they can only act out what is contained within that memory piece, and a person cannot be made to act out anything that is not a part of that piece of memory (alter). This is one of the ways professionals have come up with on how to distinguish true DID from DID want to be's.

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Maybe you could link some souces?

Maybe that is from your own experience... but from what I have seen (being non-DID) alters can have new experiences, learn, adapt, grow... you make it sound like they are plastic, unflexible and unchangeable

I am not going to comment on your interpretation of the DSM IV ... but you make it sound like a whole lot of ppl do not and cannot have DID ... I imagine this will be causing a lot of self-doubts ... I believe the diagnosis criteria are more open than that ... maybe at first, the alter believes that the situation he/ she lived in is true for now, but I reckon that they can realise that things have changed and adapt to live in the here-and-now.

((((((((((myself))))))))))) I've always respected the massive research you've done in an attempt to understand self, then applying it to your experience. Please know that.

That said, many others can use the same research to apply it to their experience, even though it might be different from yours. Because of that, I'd like to share some of the ways that my experience might be different, based on the same information...

Their content is connected (the same theme, catagory, matches) The content must all be related

I find that to be very true with my experience. I must add, though, that with my experience abuses continued for "ages" and continued to be processed/placed (yes, even as adult) with the parts of this mind that were created way back when. Possibly that's the reasoning for growth in alters?

What all that means is that in this diagnosing criteria for DID - the "alters" are limited by what they contain. Their content is connected (the same theme, catagory, matches) The content must all be related. a person when experiencing a DID alter can only act out what is contained as a part of that piece of memory and cannot be made to act out any other behaviors because the "Alter" is limited and exact.

if the person has the ability to be acting out other things that are not contained within that piece of memory they cannot be diagnosed as having DID accoding to the DSM IV TR criteria

I agree with the BASICS of that, to a point...only a point, though. I believe that is a basic truth, but it is expanded from there in my case. I feel the EMOTIONAL content is EXTREMELY limited to each. In experiencing today, which can happen, the parts of this mind react from "their place emotionally" if they're pulled to the present by a trigger that relates to what they hold. They see the event "today" from "their place" and react to it. That's my interpretation of that based on my experience due to the many abuses over many years, I'm assuming based on what t and I discovered.

For instance, when the doctor memory arose (an adult event), parts of the same event was stored with three different parts of this mind (participant in inappropriate convo, s*xual abuse, and fear of physical harm), because of the many things that happened, I presume. Two of these parts were certainly created as a child and held MANY memories holding a similar "theme", but even the abuse as an adult was processed, almost sorted, and placed there. Again, with continued abuses over years, the "the same theme, catagory, matches" were sought out/appeared and processed the part of the event applying to the parts of this mind that matched the same. So, again, I'm agreeing with you to a point, but adding "more" based on my experiences. It appears that you have applied it to self as a part of the mind containing only one memory. That's not my experience.

Although these parts that held different happenings withhin the event, they also held other events happening throughout the many years. So, while they began as children and were certainly limited in their aspect, perceptions and feelings of the time of "beginning", they expanded/grew to process the additional placements based on "the same theme, catagory, matches" remaining just as limited in the aspect of containment there.

If they can learn then they are not limited. they are not exact.

Again, I feel they are emotionally limited. However, if that were fact across the board into learning, how would one ever heal? If information cannot be taken in and "placed", how would healing/understanding/communication occur? In my experience, awarenesses HAVE to be applied for change; for healing.

So, again, while I greatly respect all the work you've done in understanding a applying research to yourself. I'm adding what I've found to be true from myself in the healing process.

I do agree with the basics of alot of what you've wrote. In my case, it's just a bit broader than your perception of the criteria.

Even the DSM-IV evolved to accomodate, based on experiences and continual learning by professionals regarding this dx. Regardless of "specifics" we share the common as well...we're unique (even within the dx.), beautiful, creative, intelligent survivors...all of us.

KD

love and best wishes to all

An interesting thread---In my experience alters are learning. Some have learned to use the computer because the keyboard is much like a typewriter and there was always a typewriter available to "play" with since we were very little. Vicki can drive because my father worked for a car dealership and there was always a "non-working" car that we "played" with so applying those things to present were not difficult for them.
Naomi always SI in some way and C has been working with her on other ways to handle her anger and she is learning other ways.
They function in the present using skills they aquired before but can adapt them to now. When taking notes at a class, Prism doesn't write the same thing over and over, she takes notes on the subject and learns that subject.
This is my experience.
w_i

White Iris, I sorta come from the same place too. My others can do all sorts. Ive got one little one who does all the jobs when we are not able to. Ive got one who can drive, but only for about 10 minutes at a time.

Lots of differences in lots of people dont you think. Its good to talk

I agree, alot of similarities and differences because of lots of experiences. I think that is what makes DID so interesting.

You have my research resources listed in my resources thread. the rest of my research involved face to face, phone contact, email and letter contact with professionals in the field done by my therapist at that time and I.

You can do that on your own just by opening phone books and calling professionals in the field of DID and treatment facilities in the field of DID and asking them questions.

My contact with the professionals in the field included their explaining their interpretation of the DSM IV TR and they all interpreted this last criteria the same just like they did on all the others.

Actually this criteria allows for many types of people to be DID because a person can be acting out any number of behaviors and memories. Its not saying for example ALL DID's climb under tables and suck their thumb for hours.

What it is saying is that when in an alter they act out the same information everytime -

Mary is Mary - today tomorrow and so on,
Katherine is katherine today tomorrow and so on.

And the therapists can recognize this by the fact that the same behaviors and the same information shows up EVERY time the person is that one alter.

To put names to this for example --

EVery time the person is "margo" its about anger,
Lots of memorys stored there - a memory of a DHS caseworker taking my child, memory of getting hit and my hitting back, and so on but the theme is anger to the point of throwing and hitting and swearing.

Every time the alter is for example Darlene its about numbers - accounting, adding and subtracting, multiplying and dividing - different memories stored as darlene but all of those memories include preforming math.

Mary - lots of memories how to cook, draw, clean organize but the theme connecting all those memories is caretaking of children. Making meals for those I had to care for, and so on

Many memorys stored as that specific alter at the same time the memorys within that specfic alter is connected, and distinct within themselfs -

They are limited by what their content themes are.

If a person is an angy alter they can't be made to smile and laugh,

If they are a happy alter they cannot be made to be angry or cry,

if they are a sad alter they cannot be made to laugh.

A person can have the memory of when a situation at age 5 made them cry and a situation at age 10 made them cry and something today at age 40 that made them cry all with in the same alter because that alters theme is "crying" and the behavior when a person is that alter is that the person crys

This criteria also accurately weeds out the want to be's because of the use of the words "Distinct" and "Relatively" because those factors are not portrayed in the mass media. It makes awful boring tv if a viewer is seeing the person behave the same way every time they switched into the same piece of memory.