Question: Do you think people lie out of shame?

Would like to get different member's opinions.

Do you think people lie out of shame?

Open Eyes
I suppose sometimes people lie to cover up for their shame. I've heard that everyone lies at times. But if a person lies often I think it has become a habit or chronic. In that case lying is almost automatic. I've known people who lie for no apparent reason. They make up stories. They even believe their own lies. That's the worst to me. People who lie to themselves.

The more difficulty a person has managing their own shame, the more likely they are to lie, in my experience. shame-avoidance becomes a huge priority, in order to prevent the pain that accompanies it from fluporishing.

Shame and fear. Lies are usually a way to cover up the fear associated with telling the truth.

Thanks for the replies. Maybe it's not a simple question that boils down to one initial reason. I was thinking it is out of fear and shame too. Maybe it's core is about a person's deep need to avoid being "powerless" in some way. Maybe it is someone's need to figure out a way to create their own reality where they can give themselves more control then they experience in their reality. An effort to live a fantasy evolves and the person decides to make that happen even if they need to lie and exaggerate and manipulate.

Part of the reason I am asking this is because of how bad things got in the last years of my parent's lives. It turned out that my older sister had manipulated my parents into setting up their Will in a way that gave her all the power. She manipulated them when they were both mentally declining. I found out that my sister began taking money from them and they were not even aware she was doing so. When a judge demanded she present an accounting because both me and my brother wanted to know where all there money went, my sister listed all the withdrawls SHE and her daughter took and accused me of doing.

What I have been struggling with is not only disbelief but a lot of disappointment not only in her but myself for not seeing just how bad things were. I have expressed disbelief about how she can live with herself and how I myself could never do the things I have come to realize she chose to do. I even struggle with "how could I have loved and trusted someone that could do these things?".

Yes, people lie out of shame because the truth makes them feel inferior. But in your case, she lied out of shame because she got caught stealing and out of greed because she stole your inheritance. Plus, she’s not ashamed by her greedy behavior at all, or she’d make things right.

They lie for different reasons....one is not to make someone upset another is to stay out of trouble after making a mistake.

not necessarily. most people I have encountered lie because...

its a learned behavior. children are taught to use their imaginations, play pretend and other games that include elements of hiding, having secrets,. even adults do it.. last month I went to a surprise party where we had to lie to the birthday person to get her to the location with out her knowing the true reason behind having to go there.

whats the most common element in an abusive situation …(child abuse, domestic violence, terrorism.....) the abusers code of conduct of "do not tell or else...." so again a person is in a situation where the childhood taught element of telling lies comes into it where the victim must use their imaginations and come up with a believe able story for the bruising and so forth and unwelcome questions about their life.

Whats the most common element in elementary, jr high and high school when a student doesn't want to do their homework or go to school....using their imaginations like they have in toddlerhood, preschool and kindergarten and so on... to come up with stories why their homework wasn't done or that they were sick and couldn't come to school.

in adult hood whats the most common thing that happens when someone doesn't want to go to work. do they call in and say "hi boss I just don't feel like coming in today, so Im staying home and watching Netflix and sit on facebook all day." no they use their imaginations like they have been taught to do in early childhood, call their boss and say "I have a sore throat.. I have a doctors appointment, I cant come in I have the flu..."

in fact its so normal and built into human existance to lie that even early documents on humans and animal kingdoms shows how early humans and animals naturally used the element of using ones imagination and lying for safety, fun and the preservation of the species.

though a very few that I know have used their natural brain activity and learned behavior of lying for crimes and so forth I find most that I encounter are doing so because that's just how they have been taught to do things.

if you are having a problem with telling lies heres what worked for someone else that I know... each time they told a lie they stopped their self, admitted they were lying (admitted either to their self or the one that they were lying to) wrote it down and then listed appropriate behaviors that they could do or say next time they are in the same situation.

Some lies for self protection.

Yes, that is what she did, she began taking money right away. She basically wiped out all the money my mother had she took thousands of dollars. I realize now why she made it a point to be so secretive and controlling. She set up a joint account just so she could do just that.

I am so sorry you have had to deal with this. In my state, what she did is very, extremely illegal. Is she facing legal consequences?

Thanks bpcyclist, what my sister did was she encouraged my parents to set their will up in a way that gave her all the power over them and their money should they be deemed incompetent. My father was beginning to decline and he really did not understand the kind of power he gave her and my mother was mentally decining and she really had no idea how my sister could abuse the power she was given. My mother and even my father would be absolutely livid to learn what my sister ended up doing. I KNOW my parents had no idea my sister was withdrawing money constantly from my mother's bank and liquidating all her investments so she could take that money as well. My sister and her daughter were even using my mother's credit card as if it was their own. My sister basically went through most of their money except for a few hundred dollars. Their home and personal property went into a Trust and she is Trustee and she has been liquidating their possessions and I also noticed things missing when I finally did get in their home.

I did hire a lawyer to take her to probate to get an accounting. She did not want to provide an accounting of the years she had been appointed POA. She only wanted to provide the last year of their lives. The judge did not like her at all and made her provide an accounting going all the way back and she decided that when she had to reveal all these withdrawls that she would blame them on me. That is even though she had set up a joint account where she could access my mother's money and I had no idea what bank my mother had an account in and I had never touched any of my mother's money. She accused me of taking my mother to the bank, I never did and then she accused me of taking my mother bank card. I had no idea there was a bank card. My sister had the bank card and her and her daughter used it when THEY needed money to pay their bills and god know what else. Most people THINK the person has to prove it, it's not like that, instead I had to prove I did NOT do those withdrawls. And to bring this to a trial it would literally eat up whatever there is left and I would have to pay the legal fees. This is because she covered that too in that the will states any effort to change what is written will cost the person questioning the will. Just to do what I did to get an accounting to at least find out what happened to their money cost me $5,000 in legal fees.

I could never do the kind of deceit and stealing and lying my sister has chosen to do.

I was just wanting to think about how does this lying evolve, from shame or just greed or what? Pretty much every discussion with her is manipulative and deceitful.

Here is a list of 30 reasons right off a PC blog

30 Reasons Why People Lie | The Exhausted Woman

From my own personal experience, my EX would lie about financial things, not out of shame, because he really didn't believe he did anything wrong so it wasn't a lie. Sometimes he thought the problem would just MAGICALLY go away. Sometimes he really didn't want me to know just how incompetent he was. Maybe an ego thing since I was the one with the Accounting & computer degree. Maybe he really didn't want me to get angry at him....but I always told him & my daughter I would not get mad if they told the truth but if I caught them in a lie....it would be much worse for them in the long run.

My ex, used the "If I don't actually say anything then it's not a lie" Not sure if that was the ASD literal thing or not or maybe just a learned behavior from his childhood. He truly believed that lies of omission were NOT lies. That really didn't go well with me since I was ALWAYS the one that had to clean up the financial messes he made.

Lots of different reasons people lie

Good post, I think this is accurate. Many experience toxic shame from long term chronic abuse (or possibly in some cases ''personality issues'') and some lie as a means of (or attempt to) shame-avoidance. It obviously isn't a healthy ''coping'' mechanism. In many cases it causes other people pain or disappointment... as do other unhealthy ''coping'' techniques such as manipulation and control of others.. or pathological ignoring games and cliques even.... it boosts their own fragile egos.

Interesting question OE, I have recently been interacting (or non interacting) with a few people (not on pc) who I have now discovered are extreme and probably chronic liars. It is not a pleasant experience as they also appear to lack much (or any) empathy for others. They are also, apparently, very arrogant. Not a ''pleasant'' combination of traits (to a ''forced people pleaser''.. forced by abusive parental units).

Oh my.. did I really say all that I think I might have to delete it I have always had an adequate ability with words. But not ''adequate confidence'' that I would not be harshly punished for using them (no dig at anyone on pc or any online person)

People don’t always want to be accountable for their behaviors. The lie could be due to shame or it could be due to manipulation. Either way, whatever the reason, the end result is the same.

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Originally Posted by Fuzzybear Good post, I think this is accurate. Many experience toxic shame from long term chronic abuse (or possibly in some cases ''personality issues'') and some lie as a means of (or attempt to) shame-avoidance. It obviously isn't a healthy ''coping'' mechanism. In many cases it causes other people pain or disappointment... as do other unhealthy ''coping'' techniques such as manipulation and control of others.. or pathological ignoring games and cliques even.... it boosts their own fragile egos. Interesting question OE, I have recently been interacting (or non interacting) with a few people (not on pc) who I have now discovered are extreme and probably chronic liars. It is not a pleasant experience as they also appear to lack much (or any) empathy for others. They are also, apparently, very arrogant. Not a ''pleasant'' combination of traits (to a ''forced people pleaser''.. forced by abusive parental units). Oh my.. did I really say all that I think I might have to delete it I have always had an adequate ability with words. But not ''adequate confidence'' that I would not be harshly punished for using them (no dig at anyone on pc or any online person)

Fuzzy......don't delete, your words are full of WISDOM that is important to share

Open Eyes I am so sorry to read this. This was not only illegal but she tried to implicate you in a crime she did!!

In my opinion there may (or should) be shame involved but mostly she is probably lying to save her own skin and I am sad to say possibly spiteful towards you.

I am not from the U.S. I am not familiar with your laws. What I can say is in the UK POA does not give a person the right to use the person's money for the attorney's own gain - there are controls and limits.

In the UK this crime is called 'financial abuse' and as such the police would pursue it (without personal cost of a civil action). I don't know if this is the case in the U.S.

Hugs. It's hard enough coping with bereavement without this too.

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Originally Posted by Discombobulated Open Eyes I am so sorry to read this. This was not only illegal but she tried to implicate you in a crime she did!! In my opinion there may (or should) be shame involved but mostly she is probably lying to save her own skin and I am sad to say possibly spiteful towards you. I am not from the U.S. I am not familiar with your laws. What I can say is in the UK POA does not give a person the right to use the person's money for the attorney's own gain - there are controls and limits. In the UK this crime is called 'financial abuse' and as such the police would pursue it (without personal cost of a civil action). I don't know if this is the case in the U.S. Hugs. It's hard enough coping with bereavement without this too.

Yes, financial abuse to elders is something the police & DA (district attorney) will handle as criminal, but they investigate & if they don't find enough proof (if it is just he said, she said) & they don't have enough PROOF to prosecute, they will NOT take the case.

In my case, if I had not stopped payment on the checks or the home care person had actually cashed them, the police said they would have had the evidence they needed. When there is no proof available to PROVE them guilty (even though we KNOW they are) it can never be won in a legal battle & money trying will just be thrown away

This must be so sad for you OE.

All I can say is she surely knows she is guilty of a crime against her own family. Maybe she will feel guilt and the burden of that. There again maybe she is not capable of that self awareness. You know her best.

Thanks Discombobulated, it's been extremely upsetting on so many levels. My sister clearly has a very dark cold side to her. She lies, manipulates, exaggerates and gaslights and is very secretive and extremely controlling.

I now see my question isn't as simple as I thought. I am thinking her lies and manipulations and gaslighting come from a very dark toxic way to gain a sense of relevance. I think these kind of individuals lack the ability to bond with others, learn to pretend enough to trick people, but can never really bond normally and tend to be jealous of those who can.

The pattern that has been consistent that REALLY came out when she was forced to present an accounting is her need to blame me or want people to see me in a negative light, and that it was not her that did anything bad, but me.

My therapist explained to me that the reason I struggle with this is because I am an empath and I try so hard to empathize even when a person is clearly being so toxic, cruel, and deceptive.

I know everyone lies and makes up excuses for being late for school/work or not getting something done on time or calling in sick when they really just badly need a personal day or claiming to not be there to answer their phone when they just don't want to talk. The lies I am sharing that my sister did are simply not the same.

You know her best and your thoughts about her are probably right.

Being sisters, she probably has harbored jealousy toward you. That’s probably the deep root of the issue. Vying for the parents attention maybe? The competition purely in her own mind?

I know you mentioned she alienated you to your parents and coerced them into giving her their money and not you getting your share. That’s pure greed. Maybe is was motivated from deep seeded jealousy, but greed is greed. She acted just like someone who got caught stealing acts.

That is what my mother said to me TishaBuv, and when she said this to me it was too late for me to have a chance to really think about it in a way where I might be able to do anything differently than I did. I honestly didn't see it and was really taken back when my mother said it to me. My mother even was surprised that I honestly did not see it and said my sister was jealous of me from when I was very little. My mother said it was my personality and my good nature and that my sister could not be that way. I don't think I really understood jealousy and my sister IMO was prettier than me so I never thought she could be jealous of me. I was always nice to my sister too, never mean or disrespectful nor did I ever engage in picking on her. I had no desire to be nasty or pick on others.

You are extremely empathetic from what I am reading. I think it is good that you try to understand why she has done what she has.

Jealousy is normal between siblings but in my experience it doesn't normally have such extreme affects into adulthood. We normally grow and develop away from this. It sounds like she has harboured an unhealthy attitude towards you for a very long time.

I guess your choice now is whether you include her in any shape or form in your life. If you choose to keep her in your life please take care.

That is also what happens when we have dysfunctional parents who may recognize things but have no skills to deal with them at the beginning of the problem & just let it grow & fester. Sadly parents are just as much a part of developing bad traits as they are good ones. If you keep getting away with things as a kid without any negative consequences then the behaviors are just reinforced & will grow , not go away