Question: Do you think people lie out of shame?

The ball is in your court. IDK your specific circumstances. You can fight her for restitution. I recommend only fighting a battle you can win. You can continue some relationship with her, but why would you with someone who is so against you?

I’ve been going through similar dilemmas merely with people who weren’t ‘with’ me (therefore they are against me). But no one was financially corrupt, just unloving when they said they were. I’m sorry you are suffering so much with this toxic family relationship.

Four years older is actually a lot. I came across an old family photo and I actually was such a peanut compared to her in this photo. She was always put off by having to deal with two younger siblings. Truth is, she always had that mean and bossy aspect to her and that air of being superior. I don't think I really thought much about that because she was so much older than me. When I really sit and think about it her influence on me was more of "you can't really do anything about this or that, and a bit of you are dumb or what do you know, nothing". What I do know, is that I did not like the way that made me feel and my answer was to be different and nicer and not as controlling as she was. I didn't like the meanness I saw around me, and I wanted to love my family.

I think what my sister always wanted was to take over and dominate. I also believe she really never got over having to share my parents with two younger siblings. I think that her taking all the money she took comes from this deep need to dominate where she needed to get her revenge for whatever she feels she failed to get growing up. Things she has said really reflects her deep need to blame me and painting herself as the poor victim. She manipulated and gaslighted both my parents to think the money she had been taking from my mother was me. In the last years of my parent's lives she wanted them see me as the bad child and her as more deserving. All the while she was taking money from them and looking to profit from their slow decline.

What makes me so sad is that my parents began to fear her and would say "she is so mean and bossy". They began to question the power they gave her and she was not going to give up the power she made sure she had so she manipulated them to think the money she had been taking from my mother was me. Unfortunately, I had no idea my sister had been withdrawing money from my mother's account and my parents had no idea either.

Honestly, what I lived through is literally what happened in the movie gaslight. My sister really gaslighted and manipulated and all the while had been on the take. Even now she is actually doing that with whatever is left too. And she continues to play the same game of setting up scenarios to bait me in hopes I will react so she can say "see how OE is poor me". It wasn't even just about my parent's money either, she wanted to control everything right down to both their last breaths and after. It's been extremely toxic and sick. It's darker than just jealousy I think. It's like when a cat hunts a mouse and bats it to see if it reacts and then grabs it and bites it hard again and continues to do so until the mouse is dead.

I think about how a toxic person tends to project, wanting their victim to feel whatever they themselves feel. At times I feel shame for failing to see just how bad it really was. Yet, I simply don't think on that deep dark level she does either. I guess that is why I wondered if it begins with not wanting to feel shame that compells a person to lie. Turns out it's not a simple answer. And it's not that I was expecting it to be, but more in thinking what a lying pattern can originate from. Clearly I am not talking about simple white lies here.

And your parents allowed her to get away with thinking this way instead of using her behaviors as a child as a teaching her opportunity. We all are a product of our environment as we perceive it, good or bad unless we are shown/taught that a different option exists. It is sad when it ends up like your sister because it is who she has become.....but what she is, is the reality that has existed all along through the development of that personality never being offered an alternative direction from the beginning.

Some of us learn alternative directions by not liking what we experience, from external sources (like our education), or best, functional parents who know how to handle challenges within their family.

We all experience this at one level or another

Actually, thinking back, my sister tended to be more covert with her negative behaviors (yes, I know that never changed). Lying was a big no no in our home, lie and you were punished.

It could be that my mother did say something to my sister about being nicer. My sister did tend to be nice to me in front of them. Ofcourse that changed when they began mentally declining and she finally knew she had control and they were at a point where they could not do anything.

One of my sister's creepy texts ended with "I have been waiting for YEARS". Very, very creepy.

Maybe it's not shame like I wondered, maybe it's anger and resentment instead. A sort of "I was here first, I should get more attention". Maybe it's the same kind of anger that happens when traffic is bad and you sit there waiting in line patiently and next thing you know someone comes along and cuts you off if they see an opening right in front of you, a little more space somehow and the person just takes it as if they are entitled.

I know that when my older brother was born my sister hated him, she hated how he appeared and the attention he got and her sense of control, perhaps before she even was able to know what that was, changed and she grew to hate it, was very angry about it. After all, she did try to kill him. Then I came along and I too was resented for her seeing me get something she lost control of "getting love and attention".

Perhaps part of the difference between myself and her is that her and my older brother were already there when I was little and for her, for a time she did not have to share. Four years older can make such a difference in that if there are younger children, the oldest child can be expected to take on more than that child is capable of taking on, which may include the mother's frustrations with keeping up with all the demands on her.

I do read what different individuals share when they share the childhood emotional neglect they experienced. The different things different individuals share when it comes to "unmet needs". I was too little to understand the kind of anger and resentment my sister had, yet, one thing I know is how it felt when she took this resentment out on me. She always had this "I have this and YOU can't have it" mentality about her. I DO remember her needing to be superior and knowing play with her always ment her needing all the control.

Truth is, my sister carried this anger and resentment and "being put out" the entire time we were growing up. She tended to have this ongoing resentment of counting what she saw others get that she did not have. My mother talked about how I was good natured and friendly and social and that my sister could not be that way and was jealous of me. Yes, sitting and thinking about it, my sister tended to need to be the one in control otherwise she would be mean and shun.

She never stole my things, I never remember her stealing. Perhaps she just stored up all her resentments and what she ended up doing was her way of punishing or finally taking whatever she felt she did not get. She always needed to control the holidays and anyone who challenged that was considered a threat. That part in her really NEVER changed. I stayed good natured about it just as I had when I was young and she always did a nice job, decorated nicely, set things up like the Martha Stewart she admired. Thing is, it's not that she cant do something nice, she is creative and talented. Instead it's always been her attitude and need for control where everyone has to play HER WAY. Someone said to me recently, "wow, that person is tough, but you seem to be able to walk around the eggshells good when you interact with that person". I had to sit and think about it and the truth is, it's years of practice due to having that kind of individual around all my life. I did WANT to love her and I did validate her and I was always different than her in that I was just friendlier and I tended to be more nurturing and patient, and that was what she always resented about me in that as my mother said, "she just could not be that way OE".

What has REALLY shocked me has been what she chose to do to finally express all her deep resentments. All her lies and gaslighting and manipulations and efforts to try to get others to believe what she was taking and actually stealing from her own parents was not her but me. As I mentioned, I was always nice to her but if that's what I had that she could not seem to have and resented to the point of needing others to think of me as the bad one, that's just sick.

I honestly could never think to do all the things my sister chose to do. She has tried to make me the villian and get people to think she is the victim. That must have been there right from the start, that resentment she harbored going all the way back. It started when I was way too little to have any ability to understand it, but one thing I can say is I did FEEL IT. I experience flashbacks but I am too little to see all these years later what I was experiencing. I find it incredible that I would experience this so many years later.

Sometimes I wonder if she experiences the hate and resentments she experienced so many year ago. It tends to feel that my sister is doing what she wanted to do had my parents not been watching. Although, many times my sister would rage at me not even caring if she did it in front of them. Yet, that was once they were too helpless to be able to do anything. I chose to distance in hopes that my parents would not be subjected to how my sister was when I was around. She wanted to me to react poorly, she seemed to need that so badly. It's extremely disturbing that someone would need to do that in order to feel empowered or relevant. It's much too sinister, not anything I would care to do.

I have to say that I find myself stuck in this disbelief, and I try not to be hard on myself for not catching on sooner when she began to withdraw money from my mother's account when my mother was not able to recognize it. My mother was still there mentally, but had been slowly giving in more and more. I watched both my parents grow tired as my sister controlled them more and more. It was a very hard thing to witness and what is even worse is when I saw the accounting my sister presented that showed me how she was on the take so early on. What's been such a challenge is that she used the same playbook that is layed out in the movie "gaslight". She literally gaslighted everyone, and she is STILL doing this.

It's not anything I would ever think to do and that's what an individual like this counts on.

Along your line of thinking.....I NEVER would have thought to have done what the home care person did to my mom. But I was aware enough & wise enough to TRUST what I was seeing so that I caught what was happening within 5 days & did what I needed to do even with people telling me stuff like that doesn't happen to people like your mom.

I refused to be naive like my parents seemed to be from as young as I can remember. I do remember thinking that as young as in grade school. Seeing & understanding your environment can not be correlated to having to be mean to do it. Though I am sure what I had to do to protect my mom probably looked mean to people outside looking in. I never believed in being a people pleaser but doing what IS RIGHT for the situation even if it involved confrontation.

If we have no desire to not be naive then we can't fault ourself for not catching anything sooner than we were capable of. You always "should of" yourself into guilt that in reality is totally unnecessary & by doing that, you just increase your own pain & get stuck because of it. You need your T to help you stop this dysfunctional thinking.....but you also have to want to stop doing it first.

Just because a person doesn't know something doesn't mean that person is choosing to be niave.

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes Just because a person doesn't know something doesn't mean that person is choosing to be niave.

They may not KNOWINGLY be choosing it, but when we limit the way we CHOOSE to see things that is still making the choice...whether it is for our own protection or whether we just don't want to see....result is still the same

How you put that eskie tends to actually be something toxic individuals have said to me when they do not want to accept responsibility for their manipulative behaviors. "You can choose to see things that way, it's your choice" when in reality the individual IS actually lying and manipulating. Another thing that can trigger me is "It is what it is" too. It's been said many times when someone wants to be dismissive or deflect and wants the other person to accept their powerlessness and relinquish control to the person who is actually on the take and planning to throw them under the bus. The other thing I noticed is "you just have to accept it" is often also used a way of manipulation.

I did not JUST ACCEPT and instead chose to press and TRY to get help. Yes, my lawyer did see it and so did the judge, actually, everyone saw it. What I noticed take place throughout everything I experienced was it was not just me that experienced discomfort when it came to my older sister. Often what I noticed is how other people distanced, did not want to touch it with a ten foot pole. I watched so many people do whatever they could to avoid my sister, hospital staff, even her own children and sadly even my own parents ended up going along with her in an attempt to avoid too. I learned my sister had a bad reputation in the realestate world, "it's her attitude others disliked where they tried to avoid her" I was told.

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How you put that eskie tends to actually be something toxic individuals have said to me when they do not want to accept responsibility for their manipulative behaviors.

First off, to ever expect a manipulative person to take responsibility for their behavior is an unwise choice. To accept anything they say as truth is unwise.....but while that is said.....we do make the CHOICE to believe them or not. You can deny it.....but it is a FACT. We make that choice. Just because a manipulative person uses a factual statement to make you feel bad, it doesn't change the FACT. That is why discernment & CONTEXT & understanding of what & how things are said is so important.

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You can choose to see things that way, it's your choice" when in reality the individual IS actually lying and manipulating.

when we look at this in a broader picture, we can LEARN to recognize lying & manipulation. We don't have to continue ACCEPTING lies & manipulation in our lives. We can learn to catch things early on. We don't have to "not learn" this just because we want to love a person or only see the good in people.

If our choices end up hurting us then we need to take responsibility & learn from it. Yea, those people don't care & will just move on to some other easy prey & will NEVER take responsibility. Our choices do determine if we are easy prey or not & that is exactly why it is so important to take responsibility & learn from the past choices we have made that have ended up hurting us. You can't just lay ALL the responsibility on those that lie & manipulate & say "I would be just fine if no one ever lied to & manipulated me"

YES!! I know this eskie, and I had quite a time getting others to see it. And if they did see it they distanced instead of actually doing something about it. Except for the lawyer that helped me and she did see it and found it extremely frustrating. Actually, I noticed that while she was trying to help me, it got very depressing for her. I did see that at the last hearing. When my lawyer learned my sister had planned having police present while I went to visit my parent's home, her response was "OMG your sister is such a beast!!".

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and I had quite a time getting others to see it. And if they did see it they distanced instead of actually doing something about it.

What did you expect them to be able to do & why did you expect them to be able to do it?

Do you think they had a right to make their own choices about whether they could accomplish anything by getting involved? Distancing is sometimes the best choice rather than adding useless input to the already existing drama when they KNOW there is nothing they can do to change anything. That in its own way validates just how bad it was. It SEEMS LIKE they saw it & you just didn't acknowledge they saw it because they didn't do anything to help you.

Even your lawyer basically told you to just walk away with what you could get & that pursuing a law suit would be way too costly & wouldn't get you what you wanted anyway.

Sometimes the choices we make aren't easy but when we do them with OUR OWN best interest involved, being satisfied is our best option.

THIS is exactly what toxic individuals COUNT ON. This is what I had tried to tell people, even members here WHY just ignoring my sister and going to visit my parents anyway was actually something that would end up with MAJOR DRAMA. It was NOT just me that I had to consider either, it was both my parents as well as ANYONE involved with their care.

I did not know early on my sister was taking money from my mother. I did not see that until my sister had to present the accounting for the judge. My sister did NOT want me to know, or anyone for that matter. It showed just how far my sister would go in PROJECTING her own issues onto me. You were in a different position where YOU were in control of your mother and could catch on much quicker. That was not the position I had and my sister manipulated things to keep me in the dark always using her POA power as well as positioning herself to have control over their health/doctors and actual mental status. She literally used their declining mental health to her own advantage and she manipulated and gaslighted both my parents. She played everyone encouraging them to think I was the threat when in reality SHE was the one that was the problem.

Truth is, she literally BAITED me every time I tried to visit my parents WANTING me to react. Even when my parent's were dying.

When I started this thread I was wondering if this all began with shame and sometimes it is out of shame. I have come to realize, it's resentment and jealousy. I tend to not think "jealousy" in that I did not see myself as "all that" where someone could be jealous like this. I have learned that I don't NEED to see myself as SUPERIOR either, apparantly that is clearly what my sister needs to feel in herself SUPERIOR.

If I may add to this conversation, much of what is being said really hits home with me. So often a person in a unhealthy or dependent relationship wants to continue the relationship without understanding what is best for the relationship. It is okay to be naive or not know, and the best way to start to get what you want from the relationship is to mend the effects of drama, abuse and violence by working on yourself. I agree that it is a persons choice to believe lies they tell others or they tell themselves. And yes, to begin to recognize patterns and remove yourself from damaging lies will allow your mind to develop a stronger response system to defend and heal.

I’m sorry, OpenEyes - possibly the competition for your mothers love and drama that your sister causes allows for this type of dependency to continue. Because I know it is draining, I feel for you and I know how physically, mentally and emotionally draining manipulative behavior can be. It sucks you into a world that is not your own. I think it is okay to feel jealous and to use that emotion to better yourself. I mean if you do not feel superior to who you once were, you will not change either and will not want to grow and learn for yourself and those around you.

Some people lie out of shame while others lie because they think they are better than others and don't think they have to be honest. Narcissism is a good example of this. Also fear can contribute to lying as well. I'll admit, I've lied out of fear before, fear of my reputation and safety.

In my case, I refused to be mean and controlling like I saw my father be with my mother and older brother and even how my sister behaved. I saw so much abuse and no one stepped up to stop it. Yet, that was also reflecting the generation I grew up in. Actually, my therapist talked about a series that depicts how that generation was, when my parents were in their 30's and what their generational messages were. This series is called "Mad Men". My therapist explained that part of understanding the psychological challenges of my generation is understanding what it was like to grow up in the late 50's, 60's and maturing in the 70's. Also, there was most definitely a lot of narcissism in that generation. Also, there was a lot of alcoholism too. So much one had to JUST learn how to ACCEPT. My therapist told me it was interesting to see how his inlaws that are part of my generation responded to it when they watched it, he said they did find it triggering, not all bad triggers but more "yes I remember seeing that, my parent's world was like that". I did find it and watched the first episode. I could see what my therapist meant, then I remembered things my mother said and I realize why she said them. I myself was a secretary for a while, and I can say the way I saw these women treated did not JUST go away with my parent's generation. Noticed that when I was in sales, yet, even when I was a lead singer and how many males I encountered did not really respect women.

When you say you were soft spoken eskie because you did not want to be wrong like your father, you didn't want to embarass yourself in some way? That's a lot more common then you think for women in their 60's like you and me. Truth is a lot of people did not want to be like their parents. Unfortuantly, many women failed to see ALL the red flags that meant, "oh no? you are not seeing the things that are going to put you right in the very place you really did not want to be in".

When I was having an ART session which is similar to EMDR but more guided. I revisited an event where my father demanded my mother make sure to have things he wanted set in front of him. He was THE boss and everyone had to OBEY him. My mother stood up for herself and he blew up and threw a heavy glass vinigar bottle denting their nice table and he picked that table on his side and everything on that table, food and all slide down at my mother. While doing that session I noticed something other than that event. My mind showed me my sister moving into that spot at the head of the table. My father had a lot of narcissistic traits and my sister gravitated towards being the same. They both played the same way, you either do it THEIR way or you will suffer and get punished. However, my sister wanted that so much that she was willing to LIE and even think that was ok as long as she got things HER way. My sister got to a point where she would rage just as my father did that night at the dinner table, just to make sure SHE gets HER way. I think my sister put my father on a pedastal and he certainly didn't deserve that. He lacked too much when it came to having the capacity to respect the things that were important to others and tended to decide if something was not important to him that it was not important. Yet, he also thought "truth" was important. Clearly, my sister doesn't embrace that same standard. However, she acted like truth was important. An act, not reality that was finally exposed about her.

I didn't mean for this thread of mine to turn into my own saga about my challenge with my older sister. I appreciate the responses and different opinions. Things definitly got toxic, very toxic, but I did not expect her to choose to list all the withdrawls she took from my mother's money/bank account and say it was me when she KNEW that was not true. Basically five years of her withdrawing money from a joint account she set up where SHE had access to my mother's money and she blames ME for a lot of the withdrawls she did herself. That's just horrible. This isn't some stranger, it's my own sister.

Open Eyes, I can see that your family background is complex and that your therapist is working with you on understanding that.

It is complex and I don't pretend to have answers but there was one thing you wrote. It was about your father's belief truth was important but also that as children you were punished for lying.

Obviously we shouldn't judge by our knowledge now what was done in the past and 60 (?) years ago that was probably a typical method of reacting to children caught lying. It's just I am thinking that among other lessons learned in the home (who shouted loudest and scared others most got their own way) she also grew up with the reinforcement that lying must not be uncovered or it would be punished. It may have made her more determined to cover her tracks at all costs. Just as she has with you.

Modern parenting tends towards discussing with a child why they lied, explaining why it is wrong, but treating all parties with fairness and empathy. Adressing wrongs sure, but not punishing/shaming.

I am not criticising your parents as such because as you yourself say it was a very different time. Your sister is an adult now and responsible for her own behaviour but perhaps her experience as the older child who was punished is playing out now sadly.

I don't know Discombobualted. This is certainly not anything I could have imagined my sister doing. She lied to her own lawyer, my lawyer and the judge and for the life of me I don't know how on earth she can lie on such a large scale like this. This is REALLY sick what she did and she even lied to my parents making them think money she herself was taking from them was me. I don't know how she can live with herself. She is a sick, twisted and deranged individual. She had no respect for her own parents to lie like this, something like this is eternal. It's grotesque what she chose to do to her own parents and family, absolutely grotesque.

Are lies sometimes a knee-jerk reaction in the face of the fear of retribution in some form or another, if the truth is admitted.