Smacking not beating - need your opinion, thks.

I would very much hope that we clarify that yelling is scolding and not verbal abuse. It's funny, the thread began as discussion between the distinction between spanking and beating. These two things are as far apart as sending your child to bed without supper and starving them.

These issues are very near and dear to all of our hearts, very personal. When I hear yelling I think of something horrible. My beloved Aunt, the reason I am a sane person today was a yeller. She was loud, not abusive. There is a difference. We had a saying in our house, the louder you are the more right you are.

I have an uncle (other side of the family) only three years older than myself, he was more of a brother than uncle. Our children are the same ages. They were not spankers, they were yellers, but their yelling was a horrible thing. I have to add that they did not call her stupid or ugly or anything else that you could put your finger on and say that's abusive. I can only describe it as nailing a stake in the ground. To this day if you raise your voice to their oldest daughter (22 in July) she will cringe in the corner and burst into tears. Just hearing one of her parents scream her name to this day, she has no idea why they're upset or what she did wrong, it's an instant breakdown.

If I fling my arms unexpectedly in the air or in the general direction of my children they do not flinch or fear this (just tried it as an experiment and accidentally flicked his nose because the boy didn't move).

Maybe then what we can say is that most of recognised methods of chastising your children are ok as long as they are done in the right way.

I smack my four year old not often as the chair works well for him ( he is hard work at the best of times ) and he didnt flinch either when i flicked near his face lol. If I do smack him its with an explanation as to why he is getting a smack and its on the back of his hand, its the act rather than pain (of which there is little) which makes him cry.

I, perhaps, have a skewed opinion of hitting in any form. I was hit daily growing up, usually not even knowing why. As a parent, I never once hit my daughter. I think this was due in large part to the nature of the child, who responded well to verbal communication and reasoning. That was enough.
I do know that children differ in the way they respond to reasoning alone. My sister had two daughters...the first was like my own daughter while the second...well...was totally out of control from the time she was born. I'm not exaggerating. Had I had such a child, I'm pretty sure I would have resorted to smackings on the bottom along with strong verbal reprimands. I'm just thankful i never had to deal with it.
Patty

"Look closely at the past in this country (US) up to the sixties, spanking was a widely held practice, and the crime rates were a lot lower. But as corporal and capitol punishment became less popular the crime rates started going up. Look at the children in our schools today. The ones from two parent homes do better in most if not all catagories and the majority of them get punished as needed at home."

There were no Twinkies back then. There are now. Therefore Twinkies should be forbidden because since there are Twinkies, crime rates are higher. Ban the Twinkies!

.. that's just as b*llshit as the first statement if you ask me.

*refrains self to not get all worked up over pro violence talk all over again*

I really don't think it was spanking that was the difference in the youth. It was that parents took an interest in their children, they expected good behavior and respect. Parents were accountable for their childrens behavior socially. Spanking just happened to be the most common form of discipline. Children NEED discipline and guidance just as much as they need love.

Several years ago my daughter had six girls spend the weekend for her birthday. They went to a church sponsored teen center in afternoon planning on staying until it closed at 10. She called to have me pick them up early. There was a boy in there harrassing them, the people running the center decided to solve the situtation by kicking all the kids out and locking the doors. It was winter and bitter cold. When I arrived this boy and his friends were still getting physical with the girls and the adults were behind the locked door watching the whole thing. My arrival didn't scare him in the least, although his three friends blended into the background, he attempted to shove me. I told the girls to get in the van and the boy decided to expose himself to us.

Once we got home the girls were fretting about what would happen on Monday, this boy had a history of grabbing them on the breast and butt. And what was really astounding is that teachers were aware of the problem and did nothing. Our state takes these things quite seriously (debate for another day). I decided to call the boy's father. Innitially the father was just as much of an *** as the "boy". I finally became mega***** put it in black and white, either he did something and assured me that the boy would keep his hands off these girls or my next call would be to the police and I would make sure that he was charged for the sexual assualt and indecent exposure I witnessed. I would personnally harrass the school staff until they too reported his behavior.

My husband was very unhappy, the boy was 18 and in his opinion fair game. He did not take kindly to the boy assaulting me or the girls (who were 15). We heard through the grapevine that the father beat the hell out of the boy (which I do not advocate). He never touched my daughter or her friends again. He did decide to take his frustration out on my oldest son who has the reputation for being a gentle giant. My son surprised me by meeting force with force. He had witnessed the girls upset and my irrate phone call, all without a word. I worry about that boy to this day, I do not blame him. Once I spoke to his father it became clear that the boy had never been taught what was appropriate behavior.

When my parents went to school spanking was allowed. The paddle still hung in the superintendents office when I went to school. My mother used to say that she'd much rather get spanked in school than have the school call home.

Even in my day no matter what was going on between students in school or even in public, when a teacher or adult appeared you behaved. Today parents use a variety of excuses to excuse bad behavior, ADHD being the most common. My eldest son has a very severe case of ADHD, this is NOT an excuse for bad behavior. He had impulse control, but he was/is respectful. He had difficulty staying on task but he was not disruptive.

During hunting season (which was all of the fall and most of the winter) boys walked around with knives in their belts, every truck had at least one gun in it in the parking lot. No one would have dreamed of bringing them in school to use them for violence.

When I was little and in school one day I was rolling around on the floor in my new coat next thing I knew was a hand hit the top of my leg and was told to get off the floor in my new coat right now ! It was the head teacher and to this day I remember him as being a very mild mannered man who everyone had an awfull lot of respect for.

He never shouted at us or yelled at us however if he came into the classroom we would all stand and wait till he said we can sit, I never knew his first name he was always Mr Gordan to us.

Not one child in the school ever played him up, and he was not the only one I can name Mr Bond who also was very strict and Mr Holman too, Mrs Tinegate Evans was another one, all of them without exception we would stand when they entered a classroom and sit quietly and do our work.

They all at one time or another smacked a child in front of the other children if only once ! It worked. Now teachers use their first names they are more like friends to the children, the children believe they are equal to the adults and as such speak to them how they would speak to friends in the playground, there is sexual bullying taking place in schools and this is ignored by the teachers as they dont know how to deal with it, this is a growing trend in the UK. Breast grabbing butt grabbing are the norm, threats to give sexual favours or you will get it is another one dished out by boys.....

If there is a fight in the school then the teachers have been told that no matter who started it then let it carry on till it stops in no way are they to interefere or help as they can be accused of hitting the child and end up in trouble with police themselves.

Where on earth did it all go wrong ?

Here the schools have gone in a different direction. There is a zero tolerance for touching in any form. Friends cannot hug, shake hands or even touch one another on the arm or shoulder. Any contact is grounds for suspension. It's horrible, my oldest and middle child would have never finished school. They were both huggers, teachers, friends etc.

Well there will have to be somthing done over here as its dangerous for the kids in schools now.

But that is taking it a bit too far makes you wonder what next dosnt it.....

Coming from a violent child hood, I had to work out where I stood on this issue.......

1. I did not smack out of anger......there is a big difference but fine line between discipline and abuse.
2. I always warned my son (count to 3!) before I did it.
3. I never smacked him anywhere but on the bum/nappy.
4. I only ever had to smack him twice.
5. I only EVER used my hand. Never wooden spoon, frying pan or other utensils used by my unpredictable mother on me.

I also used other methods.....

I would send my son to his room and sit in his doorway until he told me what he had done wrong and why.....he hated that!!!! He was not allowed to leave until he did.

I called a police friend of mine to discuss with my son the illegalities of taking things that did not belong to him. My friend showed up in squad car and full uniform. My son was hysterical and it broke my heart but he has never done it again and has a good social conscience.

When my son went through a pyromaniac stage, I told him I was going to take him to the hospital to see burnt children(sorry if that is terribly insensitive) so he could see the devastation of fire. He never did it again.

So, don't know if I sound like a hard-*** but he is 14 now and well-adjusted with good friends and good grades and is well-mannered. So I guess something worked, so help me God!!!!

Good Posting ..........

not to trash your post Tishie but I remember something... sounds so much like your post... namely:

'Back in the days when kids still had respect for elderly people. Back in the day everything was better. Back in the days...'

It's nothing new. Back in the days when you were still attending that schools, adults said the same thing. I refuse to believe it has anything to do with smacking. I refuse to believe today most parents/teachers/whatever are unable to raise their kids.
Times are changing wether you like it or not... We better get used to it. Complaining will not help.

Not that I agree with butt/breast grabbing and such... Not at ALL. But its not like kids didnt bully other kids, 10, 20,30,40 years ago.. Cept back then you were told to fight back or 'words don't hurt'. Is that so much better?

Anyways... I promised myself I wouldn't get worked up over the subject anymore so I will try to refrain from replying to much... And please don't see this as a personal attack Tishie (or anyone) cause it's not.. Just happen to not agree with some things.

Blue

Blue I do not see this as a personnal attack .....

So AAAAAA... how do they play tag on the schoolgrounds? And are the preschoolers not allowed to hold hands in the line before the door either...
Sounds a bit over the top...

It is over the top, I'm not sure what's going on in the elementary school as my children are all much older than that. But that's my point, after a long weekend my oldest and my middle sons all hugged the teacher and their friends because it had been SO long since they'd seen each other.

Surely we can tell the difference between good touching and bad touching. But then again maybe they can't, I can't tell you how many times one of my twins was whacked in the face with the dodge ball and had welts. I don't care what they say, that was just wrong.

You cannot compare Asia with the US. One is an individual culture and the other is a group culture. Asia has all sorts of social controls which keep people in line.

I tried spanking once, didn't work. I did find what worked though - teaching. Children don't know anything unless you teach them. The child needs to be understood so that the parent understands what is going on with them and why they are misbehaving.

I think a lot of our social problems have to do with parents not spending time with their kids. How can children be shaped to be polite, follow rules, problem solve, etc. unless a parent is spending time with them teaching them.

It has got to be understood that spanking should be used as a last resort rather than a first resort.

After using methods such as time out with an explaination star charts with an explaination discussion with the child individualy and as a family, you reach the point where the child cannot have that thing explained to them because they just dont think that way.

Then comes the time when cause and effect has to be shown to them because of the impact that it is having on the rest of the family, see Juran's 80:20 theory.

To say that there should be no ultimate deterant means we need to ban capital punishment world wide and close all the prisons, and just have a chat with offenders.

im sure you know no-one means it like that.

Um...

Just to you know, the sexual bullying has little, if anything to do with the fact that students are friends with their teachers. I've always been friends with my teachers, since elementary school even! (probably because I couldn't make friends with other kids ) in high school a lot of times we give them nicknames, call them by either their first or last name, and it's pretty informal. Only one or two teacher's think it's disrespectful so we just address them as Mr. or Ms. ____

In fact, it has the OPPOSITE effect on the students here, we want to get work done for them and we want to follow their rules not because we were forced into it but because you don't want to see a friend of your angry or disappointed in you. Unless they are just angry children to begin with, and then it seems no matter what the environment they would still hate their teachers, they would probably lash out even more (because they can't even handle being forced to do something they don't want to do here, imagine what they would be like with a strict school district!), and get kicked out of school.

HOWEVER, even with that thinks like grabbing each other is NOT tolerated in schools. Maybe the only reason why it is happening is specifically because the teachers have no idea how to handle it. Maybe in that sense they are just plain bad teachers.

Now, that is just a dumb school policy.
It's sort of like in Japan kids can bully their classmates litteraly to death and be extreemely rude, obnoxious and disruptive in class and they can't be diciplined because the teachers can't "interfere with their education"

There have been a few fist fights, and a catfight or two, but the teachers are supposed to break them up... and hey, lucky for us we have some pretty buff staff around here, seriously, the principal has guns! (and by that I mean the slang term, no wepons in school after all, or anything that could be remotely used as one) We also have two cops in our school (I don't know about the UK, but in the US it's pretty common to have a cop or two in school)

Oh, and I've always thought the no touch of any kind policy is not only rediculous, but unhealthy. I could understand some things but for god's sake you should at least be able to give your friend a high five when something awesome happened or give your friend a hug when they are hurting. Touching eachother in small, harmless ways like that during social interaction is just a part of being human.

"Not all spanked children are abused, but all abused children were spanked."

I have never had to hit, spank, or do any physical punishment to have my children behave. Now they are great teenagers, they do good behavior because they realize that good behavior will get more attention than bad. Since I show them respect, since they were babies, they show me and others respect now.

I know personally my friends who were spanked, just learned to do bad behaviors so they wouldn't get caught.

We keep talking about the good old days. One hundred years ago parents were allowed to kill their children if they got out of hand. Hansel and Gretel was actually a true theme during those times and later.

There are so many other ways to raise children now. We have to teach future parents of these, so they will know better. Not spanking doesn't mean that no discipline was used, just something different. Sure it might take more work in the beginning, but the future will become much easier, especially in the teens. Teens who are being respected during their childhood have no reason to rebel.