Anyone Else Under the Impression that Change Can Be Good?

Atypical_Disaster · Oct 30, 2014, 10:34 AM

Quote:

I've been told that because I admit to being embarrassed... that means I don't suffer from the disorder.. I don't see anything that says "admitting to being embarrassed precludes a diagnosis of NPD". But, who knows, maybe you're right.

All I was saying with my remark about that was my personal experiences with Narcissists. I never once claimed that I had all the answers about the disorder, and unless I missed something nobody else claimed that either.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

All I was saying with my remark about that was my personal experiences with Narcissists. I never once claimed that I had all the answers about the disorder, and unless I missed something nobody else claimed that either.

Thanks for clarifying. I do like to read about the topic. and found that it is thought there are varying degrees of severity...

Quote:

NPD interferes with people's functioning in their occupations and in their relationships:

Mild impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in occasional minor problems, but the person is generally doing pretty well.

Moderate impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in: (a) missing days from work, household duties, or school, (b) significant performance problems as a wage-earner, homemaker, or student, (c) frequently avoiding or alienating friends, (d) significant risk of harming self or others (frequent suicidal preoccupation; often neglecting family, or frequently abusing others or committing criminal acts).

Severe impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in: (a) staying in bed all day, (b) totally alienating all friends and family, (c) severe risk of harming self or others (failing to maintain personal hygiene; persistent danger of suicide, abuse, or crime).

The information I'm finding is that the disorder is mainly defined by feelings of grandiosity.

Quote:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

While grandiosity is the diagnostic hallmark of pathological narcissism, there is research evidence that pathological narcissism occurs in two forms, (a) a grandiose state of mind in young adults that can be corrected by life experiences, and (b) the stable disorder described in DSM-IV, which is defined less by grandiosity than by severely disturbed interpersonal relations.

Quote:

1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Translation: Grandiosity is the hallmark of narcissism. So what is grandiose?

The simplest everyday way that narcissists show their exaggerated sense of self-importance is by talking about family, work, life in general as if there is nobody else in the picture. Whatever they may be doing, in their own view, they are the star, and they give the impression that they are bearing heroic responsibility for their family or department or company, that they have to take care of everything because their spouses or co-workers are undependable, uncooperative, or otherwise unfit. They ignore or denigrate the abilities and contributions of others and complain that they receive no help at all; they may inspire your sympathy or admiration for their stoicism in the face of hardship or unstinting self-sacrifice for the good of (undeserving) others. But this everyday grandiosity is an aspect of narcissism that you may never catch on to unless you visit the narcissist's home or workplace and see for yourself that others are involved and are pulling their share of the load and, more often than not, are also pulling the narcissist's share as well. An example is the older woman who told me with a sigh that she knew she hadn't been a perfect mother but she just never had any help at all -- and she said this despite knowing that I knew that she had worn out and discarded two devoted husbands and had lived in her parents' pocket (and pocketbook) as long as they lived, quickly blowing her substantial inheritance on flaky business schemes. Another example is claiming unusual benefits or spectacular results from ordinary effort and investment, giving the impression that somehow the narcissist's time and money are worth more than other people's. [Here is an article about recognizing and coping with narcissism in the workplace; it is rather heavy on management jargon and psychobabble, but worth reading. "The Impact of Narcissism on Leadership and Sustainability" by Bruce Gregory, Ph.D. "When the narcissistic defense is operating in an interpersonal or group setting, the grandiose part does not show its face in public. In public it presents a front of patience, congeniality, and confident reasonableness."]

In popular usage, the terms narcissism, narcissist, and narcissistic denote absurd vanity and are applied to people whose ambitions and aspirations are much grander than their evident talents. Sometimes these terms are applied to people who are simply full of themselves -- even when their real achievements are spectacular. Outstanding performers are not always modest, but they aren't grandiose if their self-assessments are realistic; e.g., Muhammad Ali, then Cassius Clay, was notorious for boasting "I am the greatest!" and also pointing out that he was the prettiest, but he was the greatest and the prettiest for a number of years, so his self-assessments weren't grandiose. Some narcissists are flamboyantly boastful and self-aggrandizing, but many are inconspicuous in public, saving their conceit and autocratic opinions for their nearest and dearest. Common conspicuous grandiose behaviors include expecting special treatment or admiration on the basis of claiming (a) to know important, powerful or famous people or (b) to be extraordinarily intelligent or talented. As a real-life example, I used to have a neighbor who told his wife that he was the youngest person since Sir Isaac Newton to take a doctorate at Oxford. The neighbor gave no evidence of a world-class education, so I looked up Newton and found out that Newton had completed his baccalaureate at the age of twenty-two (like most people) and spent his entire academic career at Cambridge. The grandiose claims of narcissists are superficially plausible fabrications, readily punctured by a little critical consideration. The test is performance: do they deliver the goods? (There's also the special situation of a genius who's also strongly narcissistic, as perhaps Frank Lloyd Wright. Just remind yourself that the odds are that you'll meet at least 1000 narcissists for every genius you come across.) [More on grandiosity.]

Atypical_Disaster · Oct 30, 2014, 10:52 AM

So where would you fall on the severity scale, do you think?

As far as grandiosity goes, yeah, it's a huge hallmark of the disorder. But not everyone who's grandiose is a Narcissist.

shakespeare47 · 11:21 AM

It's hard to say.. mild to moderate.. There are times I appear to have a pretty good grasp of appropriate behaviors. But, then the grandiosity takes over again.

and I agree, not every grandiose person has a NPD.

Atypical_Disaster · Oct 30, 2014, 11:01 AM

Yeah, I'm a perfect example of that. I know that I'm quite grandiose but I don't have NPD. Grandiosity can be a feature of ASPD in some people which I do believe is the case with me.

I mean my member title on here says "Goddess", need I say more? LOL.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 11:12 AM

Does ASPD have levels of severity?

What level would you say you're at?

shakespeare47 · 11:33 AM

My arrogance and egotism definitely was an issue in my 8 years in the Navy Reserves. I'm sure I would have done much better if I had been able to keep my grandiose thoughts in check. And in some ways, the military encourages a lack of empathy.... they definitely didn't show much care about my needs or thoughts or desires or opinions.

Where I see I differ with the generally accepted traits, is in the need to get even area.

I've bought into it... and lived it... but, it just didn't work for me. I just got to the point where I realized that attitude and desire was hurting me more than it ever hurt anyone else.

Atypical_Disaster · Oct 30, 2014, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

Does ASPD have levels of severity?

What level would you say you're at?

Yes it does. Like every other disorder, it exists on a spectrum. Though I don't really like the term "severity", I prefer to think of it as "levels". On one level you have people who simply have a lot of issues with aggression, impulse control, and such, but they still have the emotional range of a normal person and such. Those kinds of people with ASPD, I think they can actually benefit from therapy if it's done well.

But then there's people like me, people that are referred to as sociopaths/psychopaths. I don't have the emotional range of a normal person, I've never felt empathy a day in my life, and I have zero conscience. That article you posted made an interesting point actually about the lack of empathy thing:

Quote:

Lack of empathy may take two different directions: (a) accurate interpretation of others' emotions with no concern for others' distress, which is characteristic of psychopaths; and (b) the inability to recognize and accurately interpret other people's emotions, which is the NPD style.

The bolded part is a description of me. I understand people's emotions just fine, but I simply don't care.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 11:35 AM

It may not seem apparent to some, but I definitely have a lack of empathy that is noticeable.

I was surprised when people told me.

I do kinda care. I don't want to be seen as some monster.

Mattmx · Oct 30, 2014, 11:35 AM

Perhaps you're autistic. I'm not being mean, I'm being serious. You can't seem to understand other people's thoughts and reasoning, no matter how hard you try. You can only see the world from your view, and you can't look at it from anything else.

I am going to break down that list of things you think we said, and turn it back into what we were really saying to see if you can understand.

Okay, lets begin:

"I've been told that because I admit to being embarrassed... that means I don't suffer from the disorder.. I don't see anything that says "admitting to being embarrassed precludes a diagnosis of NPD". But, who knows, maybe you're right."
Atypical already mentioned what she really meant by that, so I will as well. I also meant that in my personal experience with people who I believe to have NPD that have been formally diagnosed and possess the traits at a core level, the do not feel embarrassed by their diagnosis but embrace it as a part of them.

"I've been told that because I appear to show some empathy, then that means I don't suffer from the disorder.. I don't see anything that says "showing any signs of empathy whatsoever precludes a diagnosis of NPD". But, who knows... maybe you're right.
Our personal experience having a disorder characterized by a lack of empathy has led us to believe that if one possesses it, that it can be a deal breaker.

"I've been told that because I appear to have a lot of self-awareness, then that means I don't suffer from the disorder.. I don't see anything that says "showing self-awareness precludes a diagnosis of NPD". But, who knows... maybe you're right.."
You were told that because you are so torn and "embarrassed" by being a narcissist, it's very unlikely you are one. Much different than underground being shocked and upset that people could actually be telling him "he wasn't actually THAT good" (Don't worry buddy, you are @Underground

) Clearly we would never say that someone with self awareness can't suffer from the disorder, all of us here have self awareness. Sure it's a rare thing in this field, but that is why there are only about 5 of us posting TOPS at any given time, compared to about 100 active users in the other forums where self awareness is common.

"I've been told that because I act differently than other supposed "real" NPD's in this forum, then that means I don't have the disorder. First of all, I'm not even convinced that anyone on this forum IS a "real" NPD. Secondly, I don't see don't see anything that says "if the posters on the psych central forum say someone doesn't really suffer from the disorder, then they don't suffer from the disorder". But, who knows... maybe you're right..
"
Every single one of us here, ASPD or NPD, has a similar thought process at the root of their personality, probably due to the lack of empathy and emotional attachment. Also, because your can't seem to see the vast difference between you and others who have been diagnosed, it points towards autism to me, perhaps BPD. They are there though and we can see them clear as day in every post.

"Does anyone have any good reasons for believing the above? or are they just the opinions of random people in a pysch forum? "
We have the reason that we've all been able to find this place because of our disorders, and as you see, we all usually get along well in our odd way. We live our lives based off of experience and applied knowledge. I've worked with an autistic child in the past, and he possessed MANY traits you're demonstrating here. He could not grasp concepts that he could not find in an encyclopedia. He was fixated on certain aspects, no matter what reasons he had not to be. He could quote me many many facts, but when it came to actually applying those facts beyond just "this is them, here they are" he could not do it. Much like you, he was incapable of taking these facts he acquired and applying them to his life like people who didn't have autism.

Another reason I believe I know what I'm talking about is I've studied MANY hours of psychology (enough to get my AA in psychology, actually) and to be honest, one of the common traits of people with ASPD and NPD people that isn't concrete in the medical world is that a LOT of us are very good at seeing things for what they are, understanding people and how they tick. After all, we wouldn't be too good at what we do if we couldn't! When you combine the education and the experience, I believe I have a good grasp on your situation. I don't know everything and I am only speculating, but instead of just rejecting the idea, perhaps you should bring up what people here are telling you with your therapist. Show him these threads where you interacted with us, and let him make his judgment.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 11:38 AM

I've actually looked into the autism/aspeger's thing.

I've taken several self tests... all negative...

and none of the 5 or 6 counselors I've seen over the last 20 years even hinted at it...

so there is that.

Mattmx · Oct 30, 2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Yes it does. Like every other disorder, it exists on a spectrum. Though I don't really like the term "severity", I prefer to think of it as "levels". On one level you have people who simply have a lot of issues with aggression, impulse control, and such, but they still have the emotional range of a normal person and such. Those kinds of people with ASPD, I think they can actually benefit from therapy if it's done well.

But then there's people like me, people that are referred to as sociopaths/psychopaths. I don't have the emotional range of a normal person, I've never felt empathy a day in my life, and I have zero conscience. That article you posted made an interesting point actually about the lack of empathy thing:

The bolded part is a description of me. I understand people's emotions just fine, but I simply don't care.

Wow, welcome back twin! Again, I'm reading my own words in that post. What a surprise? Lol.

But yeah, I love that bolded part. It's definitely me to the T. Our lack of sharing in feelings allows us to be more objectionable and REALLY see into the core of people, like I stated in my post as well. I didn't even read that beforehand, I wish I had. It's a lot better wording than what I had hah.

Mattmx · Oct 30, 2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

I've actually looked into the autism/aspeger's thing.

I've taken several self tests... all negative...

and none of the 5 or 6 counselors I've seen over the last 20 years even hinted at it...

so there is that.

Have you brought it up with them? Autism can be tested for, and self tests are literally always bogus. They may match up sometimes, but it's all about your current mood. NEVER rely on them, or even trust them one bit. They are only people too, and high functioning autism can be very hard to spot, especially because it looks a lot like NPD.

As I said, instead of just assuming, why don't you take the things you've gathered here to a professional. That'll solve two problems; your lack of believing us because we aren't professionals, and it'll open up new doors for you in your life to help you get a better grasp on who you are. And hey, if they think we're all wrong, then good! I guess we're all just a bunch of idiots here and you have no reason to associate with us because we won't get it.

Oct 30, 2014, 11:47 AM

Atypical I must admit you went from second best to way down that list!!!!!!! And to think we were once a team........

Oct 30, 2014, 11:50 AM

Mattmx I do enjoy your thoughts.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattmx

Have you brought it up with them? Autism can be tested for, and self tests are literally always bogus. They may match up sometimes, but it's all about your current mood. NEVER rely on them, or even trust them one bit. They are only people too, and high functioning autism can be very hard to spot, especially because it looks a lot like NPD.

As I said, instead of just assuming, why don't you take the things you've gathered here to a professional. That'll solve two problems; your lack of believing us because we aren't professionals, and it'll open up new doors for you in your life to help you get a better grasp on who you are. And hey, if they think we're all wrong, then good! I guess we're all just a bunch of idiots here and you have no reason to associate with us because we won't get it.

Nah... what I'll do is stay here... someone needs to explain to you what a NPD really is. You're just not getting it...

See, what's happening is that you're threatened by me. You've noticed that I'm more self-aware than most NPDs... so, instead of admitting it's possible... you must rather convince yourself that I don't really suffer from the disorder.

The fact that you claim to know that you can't be wrong is the clue..

Mattmx · Oct 30, 2014, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underground

Mattmx I do enjoy your thoughts.

Thanks, I like yours as well. I try to not bash any disorder, because that's just what they are, disorders (okay, BPD I don't like, but besides that). It's a bit hard to find a wording that doesn't seem negative sometimes, no one likes a low blow (some need it though). There seems to be tons of common ground, but at the same time, vast differences. It's fascinating to look at and think about for me.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 11:57 AM

By the way... please do continue to try convince me that I don't suffer from a NPD, but rather nothing.. or something else.

I would literally be thankful if you could do it.

Oct 30, 2014, 11:58 AM

Where does it say he cant be wrong??? I don't see it. Shakespeare47, is it possible that you only seek our approval of you having NPD. I don't understand your tactics other than that. You constantly say you may not, you may, you may not, you may and when one says you probably don't you seem bothered by that answer. So if we now say yes you definitely have NPD, you are the top of the top with all the marks on the list. Will you finally feel better that we acknowledge really what you are seeking?

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattmx

Thanks, I like yours as well. I try to not bash any disorder, because that's just what they are, disorders (okay, BPD I don't like, but besides that). It's a bit hard to find a wording that doesn't seem negative sometimes, no one likes a low blow (some need it though). There seems to be tons of common ground, but at the same time, vast differences. It's fascinating to look at and think about for me.

So, what is it that you have against BPD? I thought I showed some of the traits... but, now I'm not so sure it fits.

Mattmx · Oct 30, 2014, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

Nah... what I'll do is stay here... someone needs to explain to you what a NPD really is. You're just not getting it...

See, what's happening is that you're threatened by me. You've noticed that I'm more self-aware than most NPDs... so, instead of admitting it's possible... you must rather convince yourself that I don't really suffer from the disorder.

The fact that you claim that you know you can't be wrong is the clue..

Suit yourself, but when people here get tired of playing with you you'll be alone in your fantasies.

For the record, I have ASPD, not NPD and I've never been jealous of anyone. Not due to grandiosity, just because I see the world for what it is. We're all just people with flaws and differences, and everyone has different variations.

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underground

Where does it say he cant be wrong??? I don't see it. Shakespeare47, is it possible that you only seek our approval of you having NPD. I don't understand your tactics other than that. You constantly say you may not, you may, you may not, you may and when one says you probably don't you seem bothered by that answer. So if we now say yes you definitely have NPD, you are the top of the top with all the marks on the list. Will you finally feel better that we acknowledge really what you are seeking?

I just don't like the fact that some seem to think they're some kind of "gatekeeper" to the disorder.

You're just another sufferer...

If you could convince me that I don't suffer from a NPD.. I would thank you.

Atypical_Disaster · Oct 30, 2014, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underground

Atypical I must admit you went from second best to way down that list!!!!!!! And to think we were once a team........

Okay.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but you're entitled to your opinion but of course you knew that.

Oct 30, 2014, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattmx

Thanks, I like yours as well. I try to not bash any disorder, because that's just what they are, disorders (okay, BPD I don't like, but besides that). It's a bit hard to find a wording that doesn't seem negative sometimes, no one likes a low blow (some need it though). There seems to be tons of common ground, but at the same time, vast differences. It's fascinating to look at and think about for me.

Me as well, especially when the things that never could make sense suddenly do when you find someone who shares the same thoughts. That in it's own is a relief to know I am not alone. Did you read my post, I think on page 5. I personally thought that was one of my best!!!!

shakespeare47 · Oct 30, 2014, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattmx

Suit yourself, but when people here get tired of playing with you you'll be alone in your fantasies.

For the record, I have ASPD, not NPD and I've never been jealous of anyone. Not due to grandiosity, just because I see the world for what it is. We're all just people with flaws and differences, and everyone has different variations.

I didn't say jealous.. I said threatened. maybe I'm just more self aware then most who suffer from a personality disorder... ever thought of that possibility?

Menu

Anyone Else Under the Impression that Change Can Be Good?

My Support Forums