[PippaIsAlone]

Hi all,

I'll make this quick. My mother is a narcissist. She's abused me for 8 years and I have emotional issues because of it. Today we went for lunch and discussed my pain. I cried and she kept saying how painful it was for HER that I was saying all this to her. Then she later she said she was sorry and cried. My question is, to all you narcissists out there, do you think my mother is capable of ANY remorse? ANY AT ALL? Does she feel bad for the pain she's caused? I don't know if I should believe her or not. It's so hard because I love her deeply and I don't want to give up on her. Giving up on her would be like slitting her throat and watching her die right in front of me. I love her too much.

So, is it possible for narcissists to feel bad for the pain they've caused to others? Genuine question. I'm asking because a lot of people say no, but j want to hear it from narcissists themselves.

Thanks all!!

Good luck with everything! Love&light!

[Atypical_Disaster]

It's possible for Narcissists to feel remorse, but it is a rare occurrence. I saw true remorse in one of my narcissistic parentals once, so it's not completely impossible.

However, from the sounds of it your mother isn't able to really look at how her actions have affected you, to do so would shatter her sense of self. That may change at some point or it may not, I do not know the woman or the ins and outs of this whole situation so I can't really say what'll happen with any certainty.

Even if she is never capable of genuine remorse, why should that mean you love her any less than you do? It doesn't have to mean that. You can still love her and set firm boundaries as to avoid any further trauma for yourself. It's not black and white. Just because someone isn't capable of remorse doesn't mean there's nothing about them to love.

Speaking for myself only, I am incapable of remorse, but there are people in my life who are well aware of that fact about myself and they don't mind. I'll be honest, I don't have a clue what "love" really is or what it means outside of a purely clinical perspective as I've never known the feeling. But even if you do have to "give up" on her, why does that mean you love her any less?

It sounds like you might benefit from just accepting that your mother is who she is, you can't change her. Only she can do that if she chooses.

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

It's possible for Narcissists to feel remorse, but it is a rare occurrence. I saw true remorse in one of my narcissistic parentals once, so it's not completely impossible.

However, from the sounds of it your mother isn't able to really look at how her actions have affected you, to do so would shatter her sense of self. That may change at some point or it may not, I do not know the woman or the ins and outs of this whole situation so I can't really say what'll happen with any certainty.

Even if she is never capable of genuine remorse, why should that mean you love her any less than you do? It doesn't have to mean that. You can still love her and set firm boundaries as to avoid any further trauma for yourself. It's not black and white. Just because someone isn't capable of remorse doesn't mean there's nothing about them to love.

Speaking for myself only, I am incapable of remorse, but there are people in my life who are well aware of that fact about myself and they don't mind. I'll be honest, I don't have a clue what "love" really is or what it means outside of a purely clinical perspective as I've never known the feeling. But even if you do have to "give up" on her, why does that mean you love her any less?

It sounds like you might benefit from just accepting that your mother is who she is, you can't change her. Only she can do that if she chooses.

Maybe this is why she has a problem accepting and loving her Mother- "She's abused me for 8 years and I have emotional issues because of it."

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

Maybe this is why she has a problem accepting and loving her Mother- "She's abused me for 8 years and I have emotional issues because of it."

People hurt others. It's called life. I have an extensive abuse history myself, I have experienced and also witnessed some of the worst that people can do. I have two sisters that were also badly abused, they most definitely have emotional issues because of it. But in time they've both been learning in their own ways that they can still feel love for the people that harmed them, life isn't black and white. You can hate what someone's done, or even their personality, and still love them it appears though it seems to be uncommon as most people who have been abused end up seeing the world in very black and white terms.

What simplifies things for me is that I am incapable of love, so I'm just indifferent towards my abusers. Though mind you I had my fun with them for being assholes when I was teenager, heheheh oh the joys of being young.

[here today]

I expect, Atypical, that your love is numbed out? Would you agree, theoretically? And I also guess that may be a better, safer, etc. option for you than trying to un-numb, at least at this point in your life?

To the OP -- if your mother can't face the pain from her own (likely) abusive background and therefore continues to be self-absorbed and act out, that's certainly sad for you and your relationship but how you handle it is up to you . . . not your mother. Also, she doesn't have to be a full-fledged narcissist to be self-absorbed with a sensitive, fragile, or brittle sense of self. Far too much witch-hunting for narcissists going on these days IMHO.

[Atypical_Disaster]

I expect, Atypical, that your love is numbed out? Would you agree, theoretically? And I also guess that may be a better, safer, etc. option for you than trying to un-numb, at least at this point in your life?

No. I do not agree with that even from a theoretical standpoint. I know myself, and love is simply an emotion that I do not have the capacity for. I was born without it. Interesting question nonetheless though, how are you doing anyways? I haven't seen you around in awhile.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

To the OP -- if your mother can't face the pain from her own (likely) abusive background and therefore continues to be self-absorbed and act out, that's certainly sad for you and your relationship but how you handle it is up to you . . . not your mother. Also, she doesn't have to be a full-fledged narcissist to be self-absorbed with a sensitive, fragile, or brittle sense of self. Far too much witch-hunting for narcissists going on these days IMHO.

I think the part I bolded here is right on point, I'm glad you posted that. People are so quick to call their abusive parentals/spouses/friends/and so on Narcissists, Sociopaths, Psychopaths, etc when in reality being an abusive person is not exclusive to any psychiatric/psychological disorder. Being abusive doesn't even mean that there's anything "wrong" with a person psychologically, sometimes people are just assholes plain and simple.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

No. I do not agree with that even from a theoretical standpoint. I know myself, and love is simply an emotion that I do not have the capacity for. I was born without it. Interesting question nonetheless though, how are you doing anyways? I haven't seen you around in awhile.

Sorry, I thought I remembered you writing that you met the criteria for NPD but only had some antisocial traits. Lacking the capacity to love, being born without it, sounds like what I understand to be a neurological deficit associated with psychopathy, not necessarily NPD.

Thanks for asking, I'm doing OK. As in, I think, and my T does to, that I'm now pretty capable of functioning as a "normal" authentic human being. But, wow, the pain and agony I had to go through to feel the feelings I had dissociated from. If psychologists can't comes up with a better way. . .still, it CAN be done, though if I had had to work and hadn't lucked into finding my current T it probably wouldn't have happened for me.

I think it is a normal and healthy reaction to stop loving someone who abuses you. It isn't black or white. It is smart and emotionally healthy.

[here today]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

I think it is a normal and healthy reaction to stop loving someone who abuses you. It isn't black or white. It is smart and emotionally healthy.

I disagree. But perhaps, if you like, we can agree to disagree.

This is what I meant. Breaking away emotionally from those who hurt you.

What is Trauma Bonding? | The Recovery Expert

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

This is what I meant. Breaking away emotionally from those who hurt you.

What is Trauma Bonding? | The Recovery Expert

Do you think it's possible to love someone at a safe distance or do you think you have to rid yourself of said love entirely?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good question. I like to think that you can still love someone and not have them in your life.

Another way of seeing it is that when someone abuses you often enough, your love for them deadens in a way.

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

I like to think that you can still love someone and not have them in your life.

I don't know, sounds like a bit of a paradox to be honest. If you mean distance, that still might work, but if you mean cut them out of any kind of interaction with you, then there really is no point. You have to choose, either love the individual and have them part of your life or leave them out of your life, and the love with it.

It might not be quite the same, but it sounds quite a bit like an attempted relationship I tried to have with a girl. I loved her, but eventually we broke all contact, so basically I was loving her without even being in her life in the slightest. It's unhealthy. If there is no interaction, I think the best thing is to stop loving the individual eventually, for your own sanity.

[Atypical_Disaster]

So, can a person choose to love or not love someone? Can someone choose how they feel about someone or something?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

So, can a person choose to love or not love someone? Can someone choose how they feel about someone or something?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had to make that choice once unfortunately. It's extremely hard. I guess you can say yes you can, but it comes at a cost to your feelings.

To stop loving someone you have to become very numb across your life as a whole, and lower your overall sensitivity.

I had to stop loving a girl because she didn't love me and the whole thing was going nowhere. I had to get rid of the pain of the rejection, forget the fact that she just ignored me, and I had to "kill" my feelings for her.

As a result, today I feel hardly any love at all, for anyone or anything. I have become a very detached individual and an observer instead of a participant in life. I am mostly numb and find it hard to even work on something that I used to love before.

So, come to think of it, the answer is actually maybe no in that sense, because it can be done but by giving up on love totally. So, yes, you stopped loving the person, but only because you stopped loving all together.

[Atypical_Disaster]

What does the word "love" mean to you? How do you define it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

What does the word "love" mean to you? How do you define it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it's different for everyone, but to me, when I did still feel it, it's a feeling of total adoration, admiration and dedication to someone/something. Everything about them/it is great, you can't find fault whatsoever. It's unconditional, nothing about them/it upsets you, every aspect/attribute of them/it makes you happy and makes you smile, and when you are separated from them/it for even a short while, there is an intense longing for the person/thing. It's a total feeling too. There is no room for any doubt, any negative feeling/aspect, it's perfect. When you feel it for someone for example, there is nothing about them you want to change. To you, the person is just absolutely perfect, totally flawless.

I guess it's kinda silly and stuff in a way. It makes you quite vulnerable, and somewhat blind for flaws everyone else can see in the person/thing.

[Atypical_Disaster]

If love is unconditional to you, then how can you stop loving someone for any reason? If you can stop loving someone like you described then that suggests to me that your experience of love may be more conditional than you think.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

If love is unconditional to you, then how can you stop loving someone for any reason? If you can stop loving someone like you described then that suggests to me that your experience of love may be more conditional than you think.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, it was unconditional, but I had to "kill" it. This girl I loved, I loved her unconditionally. I adored every little thing about her. To me, she was perfect.

But, I had to accept that I could never have her, because she hates me basically, to make a long story short. So, I had to find a way to stop loving her.

One way was to first numb myself completely, then I had to switch to it being conditional love, so I had to rationally sit down and look at her faults too.

The problem was I actually didn't know her that well, only knew her from what I saw for two years. I had to realize she had a life before that which could contain any number of secrets and I began analyzing my memories of the things she said and did too. I was blindly in love with her, but after numbing myself and then beginning to think back to what she said and did, suddenly those aspects began to matter and so I gradually fell out of love with her, by realizing she and I were not "in-line" with each other.

I had to do it too, because I was blaming myself for everything going wrong, while thinking she was perfect and still being hopelessly in love with her. It's only when you realize it takes two to make a relationship go sour that you then wake up out of your being in love and see things rationally. At that point, one can actually fall out of love with that person.

[here today]

What an interesting dialogue! Illustrates what I could never have conveyed if I’d just tried to talk about it.

When one is hurt by someone they love and then “numbs” or “kills” it because of the pain and disruption it causes in one’s life (and survival motivation takes over), then the conscious feeling is numbed out but the nervous pathways are still there. One still has the “capacity” for love, potentially, but may not know it, may not experience it.

Also, being “in love” with someone is different from simply loving them. Sometimes being “in love” turns into love for the real person, sometimes it doesn’t.

Love with one’s parents or family members is also different. . .I haven’t had any contact with my mother’s family since my mother died over 3 years ago. There was a family issue that we couldn’t agree about and I left, saying “this is a value system that I cannot be a part of.” Breaks my heart. I love them. Maybe they love me. But what the dysfunctional family system “required” of me, basically that I NOT be myself, was too much. I didn’t need that any more for my continued survival at age 68 or for my relationship with my mother, who had passed away. The anger and sense of betrayal from 3 years ago has faded but I still can’t be a part of the family “value system” of denial and “looking good”. And I also still love my aunts – the reality of them, the good and the bad, and the sad fact that in their 80’s it’s not likely that they will change the views and values that they lived by most of their lives. Why should they.

I also feel uncomfortable with something I wrote earlier. “Neurological deficit associated with psychopathy” could be viewed by some as demeaning. Not me, from the little I know it’s technically accurate. And it’s not so much that I want to apologize for possibly hurting Atypical’s feelings – I hope that perhaps it’s not possible to hurt her feelings, so then I couldn’t have. But “neurological abnormality” might have been a better description. Whether it’s a condition that’s mostly “caused” by environment, like I understand NPD to be, or one that’s mostly “caused” by genetics, as psychopathy may be, people who have abnormalities are PEOPLE. If I can’t trust them, I can be careful. If some of them don’t feel the same way, because they can’t, that doesn’t change how I feel about it.

My son is color-blind. It’s a neurological deficit. He was made fun of once in the second grade because of it. It was NOT a trauma, he knew he was color-blind and he knew the girl didn’t know what she was talking about. Also, people with color-blindness have better contrast sensitivity and are better able to pick out moving prey or enemies in the woods. So it’s a neurological deficit but it doesn’t mean it’s a life deficit. The color-blind people don’t need to all be shunned. Why not let the color normal do their thing and the contrast-sensitive people do their thing and exchange information for a common good?

To the OP if you’re still around – I hope that you can find a way to relate to your mother even if right now she can’t face how she affected you in the past. My daughter and I haven’t talked in 3 years. I certainly didn’t handle conversations well when she tried to tell me how should know how I “hurt” her. At the time, believe it or not, I didn’t feel “hurtness”. Because mine was numbed out from my own childhood – and in spite of much therapy which never got to the core. (No, no, no do NOT blame me. I really tried. It’s the profession that’s failing people and unless/until enough of us get “well” with the help of therapists who DO know what they’re doing. . . well, eventually it will happen. Just so sad about those who have fallen through the cracks.) I didn’t feel “hurt”, just anger, “she shouldn’t be talking to me this way”. So now, because I’ve been through the good trauma therapy it took me so long to find, I can feel hurt. But she has cut herself off from me, in part because of one of many websites for children of emotionally abusive parents. . . who of course were “emotionally abused” by their parents, etc., etc., etc.

As Atypical has said, “It’s called life.”

Originally Posted by here today

What an interesting dialogue! Illustrates what I could never have conveyed if I’d just tried to talk about it.

When one is hurt by someone they love and then “numbs” or “kills” it because of the pain and disruption it causes in one’s life (and survival motivation takes over), then the conscious feeling is numbed out but the nervous pathways are still there. One still has the “capacity” for love, potentially, but may not know it, may not experience it.

Also, being “in love” with someone is different from simply loving them. Sometimes being “in love” turns into love for the real person, sometimes it doesn’t.

Love with one’s parents or family members is also different. . .I haven’t had any contact with my mother’s family since my mother died over 3 years ago. There was a family issue that we couldn’t agree about and I left, saying “this is a value system that I cannot be a part of.” Breaks my heart. I love them. Maybe they love me. But what the dysfunctional family system “required” of me, basically that I NOT be myself, was too much. I didn’t need that any more for my continued survival at age 68 or for my relationship with my mother, who had passed away. The anger and sense of betrayal from 3 years ago has faded but I still can’t be a part of the family “value system” of denial and “looking good”. And I also still love my aunts – the reality of them, the good and the bad, and the sad fact that in their 80’s it’s not likely that they will change the views and values that they lived by most of their lives. Why should they.

I also feel uncomfortable with something I wrote earlier. “Neurological deficit associated with psychopathy” could be viewed by some as demeaning. Not me, from the little I know it’s technically accurate. And it’s not so much that I want to apologize for possibly hurting Atypical’s feelings – I hope that perhaps it’s not possible to hurt her feelings, so then I couldn’t have. But “neurological abnormality” might have been a better description. Whether it’s a condition that’s mostly “caused” by environment, like I understand NPD to be, or one that’s mostly “caused” by genetics, as psychopathy may be, people who have abnormalities are PEOPLE. If I can’t trust them, I can be careful. If some of them don’t feel the same way, because they can’t, that doesn’t change how I feel about it.

My son is color-blind. It’s a neurological deficit. He was made fun of once in the second grade because of it. It was NOT a trauma, he knew he was color-blind and he knew the girl didn’t know what she was talking about. Also, people with color-blindness have better contrast sensitivity and are better able to pick out moving prey or enemies in the woods. So it’s a neurological deficit but it doesn’t mean it’s a life deficit. The color-blind people don’t need to all be shunned. Why not let the color normal do their thing and the contrast-sensitive people do their thing and exchange information for a common good?

To the OP if you’re still around – I hope that you can find a way to relate to your mother even if right now she can’t face how she affected you in the past. My daughter and I haven’t talked in 3 years. I certainly didn’t handle conversations well when she tried to tell me how should know how I “hurt” her. At the time, believe it or not, I didn’t feel “hurtness”. Because mine was numbed out from my own childhood – and in spite of much therapy which never got to the core. (No, no, no do NOT blame me. I really tried. It’s the profession that’s failing people and unless/until enough of us get “well” with the help of therapists who DO know what they’re doing. . . well, eventually it will happen. Just so sad about those who have fallen through the cracks.) I didn’t feel “hurt”, just anger, “she shouldn’t be talking to me this way”. So now, because I’ve been through the good trauma therapy it took me so long to find, I can feel hurt. But she has cut herself off from me, in part because of one of many websites for children of emotionally abusive parents. . . who of course were “emotionally abused” by their parents, etc., etc., etc.

As Atypical has said, “It’s called life.”

That is why it is important to break the cycle of abuse. Easier said than done, I realize.

Originally Posted by here today

...and survival motivation takes over...

That's a great way of putting it! It's basically going into survival mode, just to be able to deal with the thing at hand. There is an immediate problem, and it needs to be solved, and your focus becomes that, all feelings are placed on the back burner for that period of time, until the problem is completely solved (which is why it can drag on for years or even decades).

Originally Posted by here today

Why not let the color normal do their thing and the contrast-sensitive people do their thing and exchange information for a common good?

So true. And, the same principle can be applied to other "abnormalities" too, like autism for example. It's unique and can have a very unique impact in a situation, yet people like to focus on how it is not "normal" and automatically assume then that it's incorrect to be that way.

Originally Posted by here today

It’s the profession that’s failing people and unless/until enough of us get “well” with the help of therapists who DO know what they’re doing. . . well, eventually it will happen. Just so sad about those who have fallen through the cracks.)

Yes, exactly. It's just like the medical field. They have not been able to find cures and treatments for ALL diseases and illnesses yet. Thousands of people die in hospital every day all around the world, so for those individuals, (even modern) medicine has failed them.

I can't see why the psychological/psychiatric profession is any different. Just like medical doctors, they know a lot, but not everything. There are still "illnesses" that they cannot "spot" or "cure".

[Atypical_Disaster]

here_today: No worries, your post mentioning me was dead on accurate. I like hearing your thoughts by the way, you have a unique take on PD's that I find refreshing.

I don't care about what label people call me. I do know though that narcissism is a feature of psychopathy, and said psychopathy is far more likely to be a more accurate name for my personality "condition" for warrant of a better term. I don't lose sleep over it though, why would I? Seems silly. I am me, I don't think putting yourself into a box is at all healthy. You're just you. Labels can help, I use them as shorthand to explain things about myself but not always as for example people still widely don't understand what the word psychopath means although that is slowly changing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Sorry, I thought I remembered you writing that you met the criteria for NPD but only had some antisocial traits. Lacking the capacity to love, being born without it, sounds like what I understand to be a neurological deficit associated with psychopathy, not necessarily NPD.

Thanks for asking, I'm doing OK. As in, I think, and my T does to, that I'm now pretty capable of functioning as a "normal" authentic human being. But, wow, the pain and agony I had to go through to feel the feelings I had dissociated from. If psychologists can't comes up with a better way. . .still, it CAN be done, though if I had had to work and hadn't lucked into finding my current T it probably wouldn't have happened for me.

Like another poster said here, all Psychopaths are Narcissists... So yes, I certainly meet the criteria for NPD, but I am not "just" a Narcissist. I have all the clinical features of psychopathy except the criminality as a lifestyle thing(though that being said I was in and out of trouble throughout my childhood, adolescence, and early adult years...)

What does dissociating from your feelings mean to you? What did that look like and how did said dissociation affect you? How did you work through that and learn to feel your feelings?

It sounds like you've made a lot of progress, that is commendable!