Agree narcissists capable of ANY remorse?

Part of me, yes. And so I would try to stare at the "evil" in order to learn about it, change it perhaps. And it was extremely hard, impossible like.

My mother and I are an NPD/BPD (respectively) family combo.

My personal perception is that there is no such thing as a malignant narcissist. I think there are sociopaths, who are malignant, and narcissists, who are severely delusional and lacking self-awareness and thus hurt others in the process of their daily life, but not in some willful, sadistic way.

I think this is because my mother is extremely narcissistic, but she also sees herself as a saint, and only ever goes into a narcissistic rage when her moral perfection is called into question. She also lies so often that she gives herself away to multiple people on the regular, and sometimes she just seems flat out crazy with the way she completely revises history to make herself look like an angelic savior. Most of the time my brother and I are just like about the whole thing. When I'm not in the middle of a righteous fury BPD rage, I just see my mother as tragically deluded.

All that said, my experience with my mother is that she can't handle being vulnerable when it comes to her perception of herself as morally perfect. So she never admits to wrong-doings or expresses the emotion of remorse. However, there have been numerous times when she has taken action to try to make things up to me after one of her ridiculous ****-ups, even when I had nothing to offer her, not even "supply" because in some cases I was thousands of miles away and not communicating very much. In such cases when it has been in person, my mother's anxiety is also pretty easy to read, and I pick up on her anxiety when she thinks I'm ticked off at her, combined with efforts to smooth things over, usually with gestures or gifts or whatever she thinks will work.

Maybe it's because I have a PD of my own, but over the years I've just learned to interpret my mother's 'form' of remorse. in much the same way she has learned to interpret my rages and crises as a need for help that I'm too proud and terrified to actually express, just like she can't handle expressing remorse.

Doesn't mean either of us aren't immature, insane brats sometimes, but our ridiculous, dysfunctional love is still a love none the less.

A bit of both I reckon, seeing as guilt itself is also somewhat about how others perceive you for what you did.

[I]CopperStar
My personal perception is that there is no such thing as a malignant narcissist. I think there are sociopaths, who are malignant, and narcissists, who are severely delusional and lacking self-awareness and thus hurt others in the process of their daily life, but not in some willful, sadistic way.[/I

You've never met my mother!

I think this is more of a semantics issue than anything else. To use myself as an example, I don't use the word "sociopath" often at all in reference to myself. I seldom use the word unless someone I'm speaking to about the subject is more likely to understand the word "sociopath" as opposed to "psychopath"(the term psychopath is still largely misunderstood by many, though that has slowly been changing).

From what little you've said here about your mother, I certainly agree that the term "malignant narcissist" is most definitely an accurate label for her. She reminds me of a couple of people I used to know. How often did your mother lie, generally speaking?

My best friend had a malignant narcissist for a mother, my friend escaped her mother's home relatively early on in her life and I admired that(I had already been friends with her for awhile when she made the decision to get away from her mother). It takes guts for most people to really stand their ground with a narcissist. My friend cut off all contact, she's far happier now and she has a very fulfilling life... Though of course her mother was highly abusive and my friend does go to therapy because of course she has issues as a result. But she's made much progress with her issues, and I like that quality in a person to really face their problems/issues head on.

I appreciate your honesty, thank you for answering my question. Your posts are always interesting, it's obvious you've been through a lot and that you've overcome things that most people don't. I like that.

I imagine that really facing that dark part of yourself was a highly painful thing to do...

Thanks for your interest. Your reply feels very validating.

I wonder if there is anything else we could do with this? I like the way you pose questions, not just to me but to others, as well as your replies. Looking at "evil", in oneself and others, is difficult for . . . what can I call it? "Narcissistically neurotypical" people. Maybe another thread?

Atypical
From what little you've said here about your mother, I certainly agree that the term "malignant narcissist" is most definitely an accurate label for her. She reminds me of a couple of people I used to know. How often did your mother lie, generally speaking?

A narcissistic mother never 'sees' her children.

She is the director and producer of her own film, she creates roles for her offspring. I was scapegoat, mostly ignored. To mother I was an irritation. Fat, lazy, stuipid, I 'stank',ugly, spoilt by father (I wasn't, daddies little favorite is not a good place to be, if you know what I mean)
No one would ever like me she said. All her problems were MY fault, she regualrly told me.

These are the lies, the things she said to me, told other people about me.
None are true. Sad thing is I believed those things for 40 years. 40 f##king wasted years. My 'mother' never 'saw' me at all.

N mothers/fathers are soul destroyers.

'If it wasn't for you we be alright' I think this statement is one that creates a plethora of problems.

'If it wasn't for you we'd be alright' . In my young mind=I need to disapear then everything will be good 'I am flawed, bad, useless' Suicidal thoughts came to me early, about eight years old, Should I throw myself out the moving car? Swim right out to sea as far as I can? Then everyones problems will be solved.
Even now I think of suicide most days even though I am not suicidal. I suppose its a habit.

IMO at least 50% of suicides are caused by unfit parenting. A deep inner shame planted in a young immature psyche. That secret thought 'I have no place in this world. It haunts.
By the age of five I already had the weight of the world on my shouders.

So many people on here that insist 'My parents are wonderful' and then go on to describe the horrors they have lived though.
And they still love them. WTF is that all about? Stockholm syndrone anyone?
I dont get it. Makes me mad I want to scream. Hate them Hate them, then you can move on! Cut those chains that bind.

Love is about kindness, care, compassion about caring for someone esle more than you care about yourself, otherwise it aint love its abuse!

Never love anything that can't love you back.

You're welcome, and thank you as well. I am a naturally very inquisitive person, I want to know what people think, what makes them tick, and so on... Not necessarily because I want to play a game with them, much of the time it really is simply honest curiosity.

You're right that most people don't like to see what most call "evil", especially in themselves but in others also. I've seen people who still desperately love people who have abused them in every way you can imagine, I simply don't understand it.

Your mother sounds like a carbon copy of a woman I knew for about a year, she was about a decade older than my own mother and she behaved very much like you described your mother. Glad I got rid of that woman, she was pathetic.

What you're saying about people saying their parents are wonderful and then talking about how abusive they are, yeah I don't get that either. It makes zero sense. Stockholm Syndrome is the only conclusion I can reach about such people, also.

I have openly told people before that loving me will result in their psychological destruction. When I have been upfront about that though, they often don't believe me... Thinking I'm hating on myself, nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that I cannot love, and that loving me and expecting me to love you back is just downright foolish when I've told someone upfront that love is not something I am capable of.

I've talked with you on here about your mother before. From what you describe, your mother sounds like a sociopath to me.

That is heavy duty. I totally agree with the stolkhom syndrome response.

I haven't seen any posts in this subforum like that. Can you point me to one?

I disagree that hatred is the way to move on. And in my experience caring about someone else more than you care about yourself is frequently co-dependency, not love. Not true when you have an infant, but other than that. . .

Certainly, if you didn't get love when you were an infant and young child from someone who loved you and put your interest ahead of their own when you needed it . . .that's an enormous loss and deficit and I can certainly understand how difficult it may be to overcome and move on. Maybe you, with your own mother, do need to hate. Maybe forever, maybe just for a while.

But if people never love anything that can't love you back? That's how infants are, they can't love their parents back (at least not when they are first born) and we love them anyway, hopefully. Even imperfect mothers like me.

Really sorry if you didn't get that from your mother, Marmaduke. Sometimes I got it from my mother, sometimes I didn't. I very much got hurt when she didn't and I think that definitely contributed to my difficulties. But after working through the good and the bad, the hurt and the good times, love isn't about thinking someone is wonderful. It's something else . . .that's part of why I like Atypical's questions. Maybe she can see stuff that we can't because we're blinded by ??? Pain???. Like the color-blindness example I wrote about earlier. Don't know what her motivation might be to help, though, other than curiosity.

Yes, so true! A narcissistic father doesn't see his own children either, especially if he has a son. I truly believe sometimes my own dad saw me as competition to him, a threat even. He is also jealous of the relationship my mom and I have.

Ah man, I'm so sorry. I know that feeling so well. You describe it so perfectly, so accurately, it's chilling. I never thought someone else would ever know how I felt as a little boy.

A failed relationship attempt with a girl was the "straw that broke the camel's back" for me, the "final nail in the coffin" that turned me into a cold machine. Today, I am psychotically cold most of the time, I feel nothing. I only feel feelings when posting or chatting online. In real life, among people, my feelings switch off.

Yes, me too. They just come. I daydream about dying, being killed specifically, and people witnessing it.

It's about conditioning, brain-washing if you will. The child only knows "father's" or "mother's" world view. It's ingrained into every fiber of the child's psyche. Mom or dad is queen/king, or in some cases, God. The ruler, the only universally true being. It's a warping of the mind like no other.

It runs deep. Being convinced to love this person. The decades of guilt-tripping and "displays" of what seems to be love makes you love them.

Thank you so much for your excellent post. If there is one thing I could add, it would be about your statement:

"If it wasn't for you we'd be alright."

The truth is, it actually would read:

"If it wasn't for you, I'd be alright."

They love one and one only - themselves.

But, guys, can't you see? If what you write is true then you've turned into them.

Hey, parents: "If it wasn't for you I'd be alright" Are you now narcissists? Are you capable of remorse?

No, "I'd" as in them. That's what they would say. "I'd be alright, if I didn't have you, my child."

I agree with Here today. You have to break the cycle of abuse.

That's all good and well, except for the fact that my words (and the words of Marmaduke thus) were TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED!

What cycle of abuse are you guys talking about? Cycle? What cycle? Nobody said anything about a cycle.

We're not blaming our parents, they are blaming our existence for ruining their lives.

Please guys, come on. You know better than to read stuff halfway and then comment. You guys both have the wrong idea here. I suggest going back to Marmaduke's original passage. Please revise, reread and reinterpret it.

here today,

There are endless posts that go like this;
I know my parents love me--------------------------then go onto describe a desperately dysfuntional childhood than has caused deep damage.

WTF!

But if people never love anything that can't love you back? That's how infants are, they can't love their parents back (at least not when they are first born) and we love them anyway, hopefully. Even imperfect mothers like me.

Babies can love you back tho. Babies have the capacity to love you back.

A narcissist will never love you because they are wired differently.

Little or no activity in the Admygdala (IMO)
'The amygdala is responsible for the perception of emotions such as anger, fear, and sadness, as well as the controlling of aggression. The amygdala helps to store memories of events and emotions '

Love a narcissist/psycopath (even if its your mother) and on your on a loser, you ain't never gonna win.
What will happen is that you are drained, they are feeders. They feed on you, emotional vampires. You are used, dumped on, blamed, lied about, shamed, compared to others. 'If only. If only you were as clever/pretty/popular as your sister/brother/cousin. You spend your life on a guilt trip.

You are Never Good Enough.

StbGuy
It's about conditioning, brain-washing if you will. The child only knows "father's" or "mother's" world view. It's ingrained into every fiber of the child's psyche. Mom or dad is queen/king, or in some cases, God. The ruler, the only universally true being. It's a warping of the mind like no other.

So true. Thats it!

It runs deep. Being convinced to love this person. The decades of guilt-tripping and "displays" of what seems to be love makes you love them.

This faux 'love' of neglect, cruelty and abuse, with an occasional act of what appears to be *kindness* thrown in, just enough to keep you trapped. They want to keep their chew toy subservient. Stockholm Syndrome.

"All I've done for you!!" was of fathers favorite sayings. He did f##k all for me
The basics were provided and boy, they never let me forget it.
But parents should provide, thats what parents do, its not a favor! I didn't ask to be born!

"If it wasn't for you we'd be alright."

The truth is, it actually would read:

"If it wasn't for you, I'd be alright."

They love one and one only - themselves.

YES.

Thank you for your reply StbGuy much appreciated.

Thanks marmaduke!

It's crazy how similar our stories of life sound. It's crazy how frighteningly similar the words of our parents are that was spoken to us.

Oh yes, you are so right! The reminding, the guilt, every day, how lucky I was that I had such a dedicated parent who provided so diligently. I remember how he used to say that he was not appreciated enough.

I remember the hours and hours I was forced to listen to him complaining about his life, his finances, the government, on and on it went. How stupid his colleagues were at work, how his boss was not recognizing just how much of an asset he was to the company, and not paying him a higher salary accordingly. For hours and hours every day. Let me dare take 5 minutes for myself to go and even make a hot dog or listen to something on a TV program, I would begin to get the "nobody wants to listen to me" stuff, the "It'd be better if I were just dead, then you'll all be happy" stuff.

What the effect of all this is on the child, I don't know. I don't think one will ever know the full extent. I discover pitfalls in my personality daily, all directly linked to this.

Delusional. Narc parents are delusional.

I guess they are yes.

There is a pinned thread at the top of this forum that I encourage everyone to read, but I'll post sabby's post in that thread here because it seems that some people have forgotten exactly what forum they are in:

Having an open discussion about NPD is one thing, but I think some of the posts here are going a bit too far. This forum isn't the place to vent about how much you think narcissists suck and have ruined your life, there are many forums just on this website where you can do that and get better support, and there are a slew of websites out there for recovering from growing up with a narcissist(s) for parents.

This forum is for people with NPD or similar issues to be able to talk about their thoughts, and yes, struggles. Narcissists (and psychopaths) are people, too. When people are cut, their blood is red no matter what kind of person they are, they are still human beings.

Dehumanizing an entire group of people, narcissists in this case, is not going to benefit anyone's healing process.

I hope that the moderators don't have to step in here, because I think before this conversation started devolving some interesting discussions were happening.

Just my two cents.

Yes, you are right, sorry, I didn't mean to contribute, but I was asked so I answered. But, yes, you are right, this is not what the forum is supposed to be about.