[Atypical_Disaster]

I've noticed that a lot of topics here have been getting off topic and sometimes turning into arguments and people's feelings getting hurt.

So I was thinking and I thought perhaps just starting an open discussion thread about NPD would be a good idea. The only rules are to abide by the PC guidelines, including what sabby said in the pinned thread at the top of this subforum... To not degrade people with NPD.

As a Narcissist if any nons do have questions and want a Narcissist's perspective I am willing to answer questions. This thread is open, so anyone can talk about the subject of narcissism here. I think this may help keep other threads more on topic in the future.

What do you guys think? If you're all interested then by all means let's start talking!

[Toapohtiar]

I like your idea, what can I post about?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Anything on the subject of narcissism, no NPD diagnosis required. Questions, thoughts, theories, etc are all welcome.

[CopperStar]

I think that a lot of what gets attributed to narcissism isn't actually very relevant.

At its core, narcissism is about having a deep, intense fear of shame over one's perceived flaws, which get pushed into the subconscious and replaced by a false sense of self. In other words it's a disorder of delusion that is based on fear and shame.

That core issue could manifest in a lot of different ways, with a wide variety of potential secondary symptoms and coping behaviors.

I get the impression that most "articles" on NPD out there are simply hyper-focusing on very malignant and sadistic people, traits that may or may not be a part of narcissism.

Someone with PTSD could also end up coping by being very manipulative and hostile, but we don't see articles on "How to Spot PTSD" that include, "They freak out and smash your dishes, then say it was your fault for triggering them." While some people with PTSD might do something like that, obviously that's not behavior associated with PTSD itself. Most people have an easy time understanding that.

[here today]

I definitely like the idea! And as I understand it, the concept of narcissism doesn't apply just to people with NPD. Many (most? all?) PD's have some dysfunction of healthy narcissism at their core -- at least I believe that's true for me and I don't/didn't have NPD. At least as far as therapists said. So I think a general discussion of narcissism could be very interesting and helpful.

For instance, something DBTDiva said on another thread was slightly off-topic but I thought it was very interesting:

"Some people do have more insight than others, I think that's why my bf and I both do so well. We are both also very trusting of certain people like each other and our therapists so we are open to those perspectives. I can say to him "Hey, you know I noticed _____ do you do that on purpose?" and he can do the same for me and we don't immediately get defensive or attack. It helps me a lot that the couple of times I have had abandonment-related meltdowns he has asked me to please just wait and if I still want to break up with him the next day, ok. He doesn't take it personally at all because he knows ultimately it's not about him. And I tell him how I feel a lot more than I would anyone else because I know that if I say "Hey, I'm upset now, I need for you to give me a hug" I will get what I need vs expecting him to notice I'm upset which 99.9% of the time he wont (unless it's a meltdown, lol.) but that's not because he doesn't love me it's that he can't spontaneously empathize. "

I don't think insight into self is just an innate thing though, at least not completely. We can learn to be more self-aware. All human beings, those with PDs and those without them. "

I know, for me, it would be very helpful to get feedback if/when I'm coming off in an "off" way. My trauma and wounded narcissism is mostly healed, according both to me and to my T, but one hour a week in therapy isn't sufficient for me to learn a lot of new ways to be and interact in the world. I've asked and asked my T for something like that and there just isn't anything.

[here today]

Originally Posted by CopperStar

. . .
At its core, narcissism is about having a deep, intense fear of shame over one's perceived flaws, which get pushed into the subconscious and replaced by a false sense of self. In other words it's a disorder of delusion that is based on fear and shame.

I can definitely relate to this and, as I said, I didn't have a diagnosis of NPD! I wonder, at the risk of being pedantic and obsessive-compulsive, could we say "disordered narcissism" is about having a deep, intense fear of shame. . .?

I really like the part about the delusion, too. And when one is deluded, that is one's reality. . .very confusing, I know from personal experience.

So I'd like to distinguish "disordered narcissism" from "healthy narcissism". Any ideas about that?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by CopperStar

I think that a lot of what gets attributed to narcissism isn't actually very relevant.

At its core, narcissism is about having a deep, intense fear of shame over one's perceived flaws, which get pushed into the subconscious and replaced by a false sense of self. In other words it's a disorder of delusion that is based on fear and shame.

That core issue could manifest in a lot of different ways, with a wide variety of potential secondary symptoms and coping behaviors.

I get the impression that most "articles" on NPD out there are simply hyper-focusing on very malignant and sadistic people, traits that may or may not be a part of narcissism.

Someone with PTSD could also end up coping by being very manipulative and hostile, but we don't see articles on "How to Spot PTSD" that include, "They freak out and smash your dishes, then say it was your fault for triggering them." While some people with PTSD might do something like that, obviously that's not behavior associated with PTSD itself. Most people have an easy time understanding that.

This is a very good post. Things like being sadistic can go with many things, or just stand alone. Sadism is not a requirement for an NPD diagnosis or even an ASPD diagnosis. I don't think anyone is abusive just because they have ANY mental health disorder.

People have often assumed the worst from me because I'm a Narcissist. Like I said it's not something I go out of my way to hide, so people end up thinking I'm somehow targeting them or being deliberately callous when odds are I am not doing anything intentionally.

Like in that other thread where it was assumed that I was somehow trying to "control" the discussion, it simply was not true. I just thought that the thoughts of other posters were intriguing and I wanted to respond, I honestly had no malicious intent.

I know I can come across as callous, but again it is not intentional. People assume that I do these things on purpose, and I don't. I honestly don't realize I'm doing something "wrong", so of course I get really confused when someone reacts with hostility to me. This happens to me regularly offline and it's because I honestly do not see how I am coming across to others.

The best advice I can give anyone when they're having to interact with a Narcissist is to remember that it's not about you, it's about the Narcissist. Magical things happen when you stop taking a Narcissist's behavior personally, and I am being dead serious about that.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

I definitely like the idea! And as I understand it, the concept of narcissism doesn't apply just to people with NPD. Many (most? all?) PD's have some dysfunction of healthy narcissism at their core -- at least I believe that's true for me and I don't/didn't have NPD. At least as far as therapists said. So I think a general discussion of narcissism could be very interesting and helpful.

For instance, something DBTDiva said on another thread was slightly off-topic but I thought it was very interesting:

"Some people do have more insight than others, I think that's why my bf and I both do so well. We are both also very trusting of certain people like each other and our therapists so we are open to those perspectives. I can say to him "Hey, you know I noticed _____ do you do that on purpose?" and he can do the same for me and we don't immediately get defensive or attack. It helps me a lot that the couple of times I have had abandonment-related meltdowns he has asked me to please just wait and if I still want to break up with him the next day, ok. He doesn't take it personally at all because he knows ultimately it's not about him. And I tell him how I feel a lot more than I would anyone else because I know that if I say "Hey, I'm upset now, I need for you to give me a hug" I will get what I need vs expecting him to notice I'm upset which 99.9% of the time he wont (unless it's a meltdown, lol.) but that's not because he doesn't love me it's that he can't spontaneously empathize. "

I don't think insight into self is just an innate thing though, at least not completely. We can learn to be more self-aware. All human beings, those with PDs and those without them. "

I know, for me, it would be very helpful to get feedback if/when I'm coming off in an "off" way. My trauma and wounded narcissism is mostly healed, according both to me and to my T, but one hour a week in therapy isn't sufficient for me to learn a lot of new ways to be and interact in the world. I've asked and asked my T for something like that and there just isn't anything.

You nailed one of my issues, it would be lovely if I got some kind of feedback when I'm acting in a way that's "disordered" because honest to God I do not see it at the time. As much as I loathe admitting it I cannot figure everything out on my own. Human beings are social creatures and that includes myself, and that means that like anyone else, I need perspective. The trick, I think, is to find a way to give me perspective when it is warranted in a way that does not cause me to go on the defensive, because that certainly wouldn't solve anything for me or the other person involved.

The first part of your post is interesting, why do you believe that narcissism has a hand in other personality disorders? I think that is an interesting thought, would you mind expounding upon that more? I am curious.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

. . . why do you believe that narcissism has a hand in other personality disorders? I think that is an interesting thought, would you mind expounding upon that more? I am curious.

I got a lot from Heinz Kohut's theory in his book Restoration of the Self. I used his theory to try to put a "self" together for myself.

In my view, my experience, the way I used the theory for myself, basic narcissism is the "substrate" out of which a self forms. I'm kind of rusty on this but Kohut saw 3 different aspects of developmental narcissism-- the grandiose self, the idealized other, and the twinship function. In normal development, these work together so that the person develops a sense of themselves, and others, in society. I tried to use his theory to patch things together in my psyche for myself and this has been a very big difference in my current concept or sense of myself now versus 20 years ago.

I likely had OCPD, as I've said before -- a focus on perfectionism but I tried to DO things so that I could match a perfect standard rather than see myself as perfect already.

Lack of identity or sense of self and problems in relationships with others is a common factor in all personality disorders so it makes sense to me that they all come out of infant/child narcissism that didn't (or couldn't) function normally.

If you're interested, I'll try to locate some of my books on the subject -- I got what I wanted/needed out of them several years ago so I'm not sure where they are now -- but somewhere around here.

"Chuckling" ok so now I am back and ready for the action. I see all the arguments and it makes me........ Smile a bit!! People it's ok, I am here now. The people who doubt themselves are not suffering with NPD!!! It's something else, maybe I'll call it WPD... No need to ask about the acronym just think about it!!! Anyhow to all you so called narcs (my little puppets of emotions) I am here, doesn't it feel so right....
Love,
Sir Underground

Ps
I am responding because I am intrigued, so your welcome.

[MissFiona]

Originally Posted by Underground

"Chuckling" ok so now I am back and ready for the action. I see all the arguments and it makes me........ Smile a bit!! People it's ok, I am here now. The people who doubt themselves are not suffering with NPD!!! It's something else, maybe I'll call it WPD... No need to ask about the acronym just think about it!!! Anyhow to all you so called narcs (my little puppets of emotions) I am here, doesn't it feel so right....
Love,
Sir Underground

Ps
I am responding because I am intrigued, so your welcome.

WPD? My mind got stuck on the W. All I could think of was double ewwww, self explanatory or double ewe which is a female sheep when fully grown but given it's double ewwww or ewe I guess it would be two female sheep when fully grown or ewwww x 2 or even double U which is U x 2 then take any of these and add personality disorder on the end.

Based on this startling equation:

It all seems to come back to U even when you are speaking about 'them'.

Laughing!

Gotta love it!!!! So easy but still so effective.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

Gotta love it!!!! So easy but still so effective.

With people, all it takes is a little push at the right time and there you have it.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

"Chuckling" ok so now I am back and ready for the action. I see all the arguments and it makes me........ Smile a bit!! People it's ok, I am here now. The people who doubt themselves are not suffering with NPD!!! It's something else, maybe I'll call it WPD... No need to ask about the acronym just think about it!!! Anyhow to all you so called narcs (my little puppets of emotions) I am here, doesn't it feel so right....
Love,
Sir Underground

Ps
I am responding because I am intrigued, so your welcome.

What amazes me is that it's not the actual Narcissists fighting, it's the nons! I don't know what I did in that other thread that was so terrible but apparently it caused a stir. Only another Narcissist will understand why it does not compute in my mind!

When I saw the W I thought of Whining but that's just me making myself laugh with that N humor you and I both talk about HA HA HA.

[here today]

Glad to see some more talking on this thread!

And, yes, Underground, this forum isn’t the same without you!

Just to double check – Miss Fiona, are we OK? You’re OK with me, I’m OK with myself, but if there’s something you want to talk about I’m OK with that, too.

I have an idea, Atypical, about what you did that some others didn’t like. And then I didn’t like what somebody else did in response. What you did, which may or may not have been the problem for someone else, wasn’t a problem for me. And then what I did was apparently a problem for some others, which I didn’t fully understand going into it. I know for me something pretty deep got triggered. Maybe for the others, too.

[MissFiona]

Originally Posted by here today

Glad to see some more talking on this thread!

And, yes, Underground, this forum isn’t the same without you!

Just to double check – Miss Fiona, are we OK? You’re OK with me, I’m OK with myself, but if there’s something you want to talk about I’m OK with that, too.

I have an idea, Atypical, about what you did that some others didn’t like. And then I didn’t like what somebody else did in response. What you did, which may or may not have been the problem for someone else, wasn’t a problem for me. And then what I did was apparently a problem for some others, which I didn’t fully understand going into it. I know for me something pretty deep got triggered. Maybe for the others, too.

Hello, hello HT,

We're finer than the finest hair made in China :-)

By that I mean we are all fine and good given the artificial conditions communicating on the internet provides. It can get a bit hairy!!!

OK, OK, I'm going. Have an F&G (fine and good) weekend!

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Glad to see some more talking on this thread!

And, yes, Underground, this forum isn’t the same without you!

Just to double check – Miss Fiona, are we OK? You’re OK with me, I’m OK with myself, but if there’s something you want to talk about I’m OK with that, too.

I have an idea, Atypical, about what you did that some others didn’t like. And then I didn’t like what somebody else did in response. What you did, which may or may not have been the problem for someone else, wasn’t a problem for me. And then what I did was apparently a problem for some others, which I didn’t fully understand going into it. I know for me something pretty deep got triggered. Maybe for the others, too.

I have an idea too, I may message you about it privately.

What I'm wondering is what it is about those kinds of interactions that trigger you so deeply, I find it interesting. Not in the voyeur kind of way just to be clear, I just have an honest curiosity as I've always found you and your posts to be intriguing.

Atypical..... Stroking someone else now are we?????? Heretoday I am glad I make it what it is. I do know that I am in the spotlight every time I grant you all access to my mind. Autographs maybe someday.

Whiny is good but mine stood for WEAK!!!! HA HA HA HA

[MissFiona]

Quote from HT.

"I have an idea, Atypical, about what you did that some others didn’t like. And then I didn’t like what somebody else did in response. What you did, which may or may not have been the problem for someone else, wasn’t a problem for me. And then what I did was apparently a problem for some others, which I didn’t fully understand going into it. I know for me something pretty deep got triggered. Maybe for the others, too."

Right-ee-oh. This is how I viewed it on the small screen. I was out and about skipping through the fields of Psychcentral that day and came to a sign that said NPD Forum.

If I were choosing a musical score to accompany me on this excursion it would be "if you go down to the woods today, you're sure of a big surprise. "If you go down to the woods today, you better go in disguise."

Upon entering the field marked NPD I saw a group of teddy bears gathered together under an umbrella that said "if you are interested, let's start talking". Other talking teddy bears, what fun!!

I started listening/reading the conversations and came to a halt. The name of the game was "if you are interested, let's start talking" and yet someone had decided to block someone else and stop talking - after they had been given someone else's opinion and it appeared that this was not an area where all teddy bears were welcome because they didn't have an official NPD certificate so their opinions were not valid or correct in the eyes of some of the other teddies and of no use to them. One teddy got their pen and wrote bitter on another teddy bear! Then that teddy got her block eraser and rubbed that teddy out because they didn't want to feel invalidated or unwelcome or as though they weren't allowed here or weren't entitled to their individual opinion.

Then another teddy came along and said they had a sour stomach and that the teddy with the block had made them feel that way. Two teddies both saw bitter! They must be the eraser teddy bears Mum and Dad or their Doctors or their Teachers to be speaking to them that way!

Damn, this Teddy saw someone being singled out and attacked in a very precise manner. Very clinical. Very raptor-rapture like. HT bear was even making a referral to take it to the Higher Authority Sticky Place, you know, "Heaven" where the people in long white coats live, if all else fails! Egads, it must be quite serious!

What to do. The umbrella we're all sitting under says lets start talking. We're all triggered by authority figures. Or things that dare to remind us that we're only little teddy bears wandering through the fields to find which one feels right for us. If the fields are the mind then sure you're gonna encounter minefields that you step on from time to time and things go KABOOM.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

Atypical..... Stroking someone else now are we?????? Heretoday I am glad I make it what it is. I do know that I am in the spotlight every time I grant you all access to my mind. Autographs maybe someday.

Always questioning me as usual. Fascinating little pattern.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Underground

Whiny is good but mine stood for WEAK!!!! HA HA HA HA

ha ha ha! I had started to write that I felt so inadequate, like I would never figure it out, and then something hit me and I laughed. But then I was too chicken to post the message.

Thanks for relieving my curiosity, Underground, and I didn't even have to ask!

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

You nailed one of my issues, it would be lovely if I got some kind of feedback when I'm acting in a way that's "disordered" because honest to God I do not see it at the time. As much as I loathe admitting it I cannot figure everything out on my own. Human beings are social creatures and that includes myself, and that means that like anyone else, I need perspective. The trick, I think, is to find a way to give me perspective when it is warranted in a way that does not cause me to go on the defensive, because that certainly wouldn't solve anything for me or the other person involved.


The first part of your post is interesting, why do you believe that narcissism has a hand in other personality disorders? I think that is an interesting thought, would you mind expounding upon that more? I am curious.

I had a nonspecific PD which had traits of borderline and traits of narcissism .

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

What amazes me is that it's not the actual Narcissists fighting, it's the nons! I don't know what I did in that other thread that was so terrible but apparently it caused a stir. Only another Narcissist will understand why it does not compute in my mind!


When I saw the W I thought of Whining but that's just me making myself laugh with that N humor you and I both talk about HA HA HA.

Yes I thought of whining too

[here today]

I'd like some feedback about the debate/discussion on the vindictive phase thread. Was I out of line? I know what some people said when then didn't like, or were triggered by, something that I said. But did that make it abusive?