We need to remember that diagnosis is a science and therefore not perfect. Npd today could be a trait in a few years, if DSM editors are for that. It's important to keep front of mind the fact that we live an a society that is uncomfortable with calling people depraved or bad, unless of course they have a certain complexion or pedigree ( but that's for another thread), so it occasionally pathologizes basic human traits in an effort to explain why certain people do the things they do. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of what a person diagnosed with npd generally looks like.

[marmaduke]

Rouge.
Disagree totally ☺

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Could it be like I once was, you're in the wrong room? I think the room should be for self diagnosed/proclaimed doctors. You ask to see thing from a highly reputable source to believe yet it seems as all your resources are from within yourself. So what should the rest of us believe? Better yet what should we ask. When you begin to realize that certain people here are just toying with you and you really think they are being genuine with their questions. Maybe you need your past to be relived. Ha Ha Ha, come to a NPD thread and try to be a founding father of new theory. And then you say there is no such thing as NPD or at least something that is in everyone. Oh how I wish I had more time at the moment.....
Love the newly found non-disorder Underground.
Thanks again BUD

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Rouge.
Disagree totally ☺

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

We can agree to disagree. I think labels make people feel better, unique or special even, and society gets to feel that outliers are explainable. This is why every mass shooter is automatically a mentally ill loner rather than a depraved monster empowered by unchecked privileged and entitlement who used free will to kill. Western culture doesn't like not being able to explain things.

Pathology is a cozy blanket for our society. I'm more interested in accountability and solutions. My best therapist was of the same mind. She refused to allow me to traffic in pathology and refused to use labels. I'm glad she's now a professor of psychology and sharing her wisdom with future therapists; she really is a pioneer. I see now what she meant about where society was headed with overmedicating and overdiagnosing. It seems labels haven't just been accepted,many now feel they are their label. Whatever you are diagnosed with, you're so much more than that. Labels are helpful but you shouldn't need a diagnosis to feel special.

[Atypical_Disaster]

I don't give two ***s about labels. I use them as a shorthand as saying "narcissist" takes a lot less time than saying, "grandiose, unempathetic, exploitative asshole"... But hey, to each their own.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by rouge198

We can agree to disagree. I think labels make people feel better, unique or special even, and society gets to feel that outliers are explainable. This is why every mass shooter is automatically a mentally ill loner rather than a depraved monster empowered by unchecked privileged and entitlement who used free will to kill. Western culture doesn't like not being able to explain things.

Pathology is a cozy blanket for our society. I'm more interested in accountability and solutions. My best therapist was of the same mind. She refused to allow me to traffic in pathology and refused to use labels. I'm glad she's now a professor of psychology and sharing her wisdom with future therapists; she really is a pioneer. I see now what she meant about where society was headed with overmedicating and overdiagnosing. It seems labels haven't just been accepted,many now feel they are their label. Whatever you are diagnosed with, you're so much more than that. Labels are helpful but you shouldn't need a diagnosis to feel special.

Nobody here has talked about feeling special because they have *X* label.

Its the non narcs I blame for the narcs wrapping themselves in the labels because they approach narcs and are all, " I was wounded by a narcissist (who may not have even been a narcissist) please tell me why a total stranger to you, hurt me." Non narcs are obsessed with narcs and then say they detest the grandiose sense of self, exploitation and emotional terrorism that they in many cases seek out by fixating on narcs. I never asked a narcissist for answers but I read the abuse recovery blogs and championed the support groups, so I'm just a guilty.

[Atypical_Disaster]

The only "pure" Narcissist(person with NPD) that posts on this forum is Underground. I've never seen him "wrap himself up in the label". Ever.

It's been a while since being irritated in the NPD rooms but here it is again. So you were in recovery forums listening to people affects by Ns. Now you feel as if it's your place to come here and say we are what we are. That your thoughts are the true definitions of what is what. Your preaching to the wrong crowd bud. It's fine and dandy to have your own opinions as all humans are but to try and say that blue is actually pink is what I have an issue with. You were obviously one who has been hurt or misused by a person with narcissistic tendencies and now feel that is is your right to guide "us" all through the steps in what life really is. I too went to other rooms and tried to help, I didn't tell people what they were or weren't, just tried to give one with NPD perspective. Instead I was the one getting harassed and told who they thought I was. Instead of the normal back and forth I just realized I only belong here, in a matter of sharing my thoughts, jokes or anything I wanted to. Like most here, this room is made up of many none. Ones who typically ask questions or share experiences to get some type of answer from one who understands a little better than most. I have no problem with these types, in fact I think it helps myself being able to open up and share my thoughts. Not to seek what a N typically does rather help to help myself in seeing things in a way that is more acceptable to the masses. You my friend come here with opposite intentions. Sure your writings show that you are book smart. That YOUR memory allows you to memorize the things you read and were told. After that it's all lost. Speaking for myself I would love to see you gone from here only because your arrogance really annoys me now. Go back to the little cry babies you felt so empowered by and tell them what you think, I'm sure they would all love your insight. Your insight here isn't getting you anywhere except people not liking what you have to say. Trying to make things that are so difficult to truly understand made out to be so simple shows more ignorance than your words can show.

Again, we're all narcissistic at one time or another. Pathologizing common human traits so that we can explain away people choosing to be uncaring toward other human beings is consistent with prevailing cultural standards in the West. Which is why we continue to see unchecked privilege justified and mass murderers having a field day. We really can't afford to ignore the pervasiveness of narcissism when there are young males killing women for not dating them (see Elliot Rogers). 20 years from now people will be wagging their fingers at editors of the DSM the same way they do now over their classification of homosexuality as a mental illness. They manufactured an excuse and are culpable. You know who really interests me? Sociopaths. They move in silence and don't have any f's to give. My aunt works with them exclusively in her practice and they're a very interesting group. Real sociopaths - not individuals who read the dsm cover to cover and feign sociopathy, are extremely interesting to study.

I know you don't believe in labels but if you did which would be yours? Very interested to know. Being that you spent so many years in therapy you must have at least one.

Originally Posted by Underground

I know you don't believe in labels but if you did which would be yours? Very interested to know. Being that you spent so many years in therapy you must have at least one.

I entered therapy initially for grief after the death of a loved one and my official label was anxiety. Eventually I began to unpack other things while there. I don't not believe in labels, I disagree with how they're used.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by rouge198

Again, we're all narcissistic at one time or another. Pathologizing common human traits so that we can explain away people choosing to be uncaring toward other human beings is consistent with prevailing cultural standards in the West. Which is why we continue to see unchecked privilege justified and mass murderers having a field day. We really can't afford to ignore the pervasiveness of narcissism when there are young males killing women for not dating them (see Elliot Rogers). 20 years from now people will be wagging their fingers at editors of the DSM the same way they do now over their classification of homosexuality as a mental illness. They manufactured an excuse and are culpable. You know who really interests me? Sociopaths. They move in silence and don't have any f's to give. My aunt works with them exclusively in her practice and they're a very interesting group. Real sociopaths - not individuals who read the dsm cover to cover and feign sociopathy, are extremely interesting to study.

Your dislike of me is really rather funny.

Lashing out to "labels" will never fix the problem. Only time will tell, better yet only time will heal. Accept the facts based on what makes you weak and then maybe you will begin to feel better. The pain you hold so deep inside is evident in your writings. So sad.... Don't worry, one day you will feel better. When you realize your going about it all wrong.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

Lashing out to "labels" will never fix the problem. Only time will tell, better yet only time will heal. Accept the facts based on what makes you weak and then maybe you will begin to feel better. The pain you hold so deep inside is evident in your writings. So sad.... Don't worry, one day you will feel better. When you realize your going about it all wrong.

Agreed.

It's obvious you're in a lot of pain, rouge, but coming around here posting all of this stuff trying to lash out is not going to help you or anyone else.

Fortunately young therapists all over are being taught to abandon pathology. I maintain that I've never met anyone with npd because narcissism is a trait and not a disorder. Therefore I've never been hurt by anyone suffering from npd, just humans impaired by a deep sense of worthless who've chosen to emotionally terrorize others rather than sit with themselves and do the work necessary to change. Npd is what western doctors term deep self involvement that they're unable to treat, nothing more. BPD, Schitzophrenia, depression and other very truly chemical disorders ought to be labeled and we should be focusing our time on people suffering from MI's like those instead of quizzing folks plagued by their self involvement. The west is very good at creating excuses for depravity when it suits them.

I think most alleged narcissists are insecure about their diagnosis but enjoy the attention they get on account of being supposedly unfeeling and indefinitely delusional in the MI community and outside of it. Unrealized sociopaths, truly exceptional they think themselves to be. Meanwhile sociopaths are moving in silence and running companies, countries and more on account of their real propensity for high achievement.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Rouge, why do you continue to post and literally not read much less comprehend what others are trying to say to you? This is serving no purpose.

One day happiness will be in the dsm as a mood disorder at the rate we're going.

To those invested in the goings on of those referred to as narcissists, please focus your attention elsewhere. We're all narcissistic to some degree. Forgive the person who hurt you and move on. Obsessing over npd isn't the way and is a distraction. I know that's easier said than done.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by rouge198

To those invested in the goings on of those referred to as narcissists, please focus your attention elsewhere. We're all narcissistic to some degree. Forgive the person who hurt you and move on. Obsessing over npd isn't the way and is a distraction. I know that's easier said than done.

If you're so interested in being able to denounce the existence of the construct of NPD, why not re-invest the energy you've given to posting here into campaigning with members of the DSM committee? I can't imagine they would not be eager to receive the benefit of your obvious authority on the topic...

In the meantime, why should discussion of the topic be so bothersome to you? It's the clearly indicated intention of this subforum. It's sort of like walking into a bar and demanding that everyone drink Shirley Temples.

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

If you're so interested in being able to denounce the existence of the construct of NPD, why not re-invest the energy you've given to posting here into campaigning with members of the DSM committee? I can't imagine they would not be eager to receive the benefit of your obvious authority on the topic...

In the meantime, why should discussion of the topic be so bothersome to you? It's the clearly indicated intention of this subforum. It's sort of like walking into a bar and demanding that everyone drink Shirley Temples.

This is an open discussion; I'm free to add commentary and others are free to ignore it. Engagement is at all times optional.

Also, I'm certain that I stated that I'm not a doctor of psychology - so I can only infer that your comment about me speaking to the dsm was meant to harm. Trouble is that you can't be sure that I haven't already or that I didn't speak with experts on the subject before posting. There are many who share my beliefs about npd and with our country blaming MI's for virtually every act of mass murder, it's important that we make clear to others what the MI community is and isn't. Npd isn't, in my opinion, an illness but a character trait possessed by all humans. I'm not alone in that belief. A cursory search of Google for scholarship produced by credible sources on the subject would make that very evident.

What I would like is for people to stop complaining that alleged npd sufferers are a blight on humanity while obsessively quizzing them and elevating them to special snowflake status. You bet I'd have a grandiose sense of self if people thought me capable of emotional terrorism and spent every waking hour obsessing over how I think.

I'm only asking folks to reconsider the attention they give a rather common human character trait. No one is forced to do what I've said and because the west socializes people to unnecessarily pathologize things, I'm certain most won't. That's fine. No one listened to the people who argued that homosexuality wasn't a mental illness or the people who pointed out that people of color weren't biologically inferior either.

Funny how a people so averse to religion hold so close to their hearts the text of a book that is under constant revision by imperfect humans.

Ok so we all understand these rants you type of are only what YOU think and not based on facts from a credible source? We also agree that anyone here is free to post on what ONLY THEY believe to be true. With that I have a couple of my own thoughts:
You have been impacted severely by a person with narcissistic qualities at some point in your life.
You suffer with oppositional defiance.
You have some other disorder maybe even NPD but you want to make yourself hurt a little less by trying to convince the world that you in fact are not disordered because the so called disorder is not real.
You love to repeat yourself over and over and over and over again.
And last but definitely not least, your very flamboyant yet have not fully come out of the closet yet.... Still just peeking out. Anxiety issues you spoke of earlier I suppose.

Little more:
You read all the time
You have family members that are doctors so you feel it's your right to act as if your one as well.

You have to see that everyone is turning against you here. I will bet it's safe to say that you have plenty of experience with this already in the real world. Probably that it's not so much as real people turn against you as much as it's that never anyone takes much notice of you in the real world(reason for all the reading and anxiety issues).

Anyway you said this is here for us all to share so I have done my part for now.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by rouge198

This is an open discussion; I'm free to add commentary and others are free to ignore it. Engagement is at all times optional.

Of course. As am I.

Originally Posted by rouge198

Also, I'm certain that I stated that I'm not a doctor of psychology - so I can only infer that your comment about me speaking to the dsm was meant to harm. Trouble is that you can't be sure that I haven't already or that I didn't speak with experts on the subject before posting.

Meant to harm, really.. don't you think that's a bit of a leap? You write in an authoritarian manner which suggests that you assume the opinion you've developed with the help of apparently better experts in psychology than any of us may have had the benefit of interacting with, is more valid than anyone else's, and it was merely my intention to hold you to account for that. It was a perfectly fair response.

Originally Posted by Underground

Ok so we all understand these rants you type of are only what YOU think and not based on facts from a credible source? We also agree that anyone here is free to post on what ONLY THEY believe to be true. With that I have a couple of my own thoughts:
You have been impacted severely by a person with narcissistic qualities at some point in your life.
You suffer with oppositional defiance.
You have some other disorder maybe even NPD but you want to make yourself hurt a little less by trying to convince the world that you in fact are not disordered because the so called disorder is not real.
You love to repeat yourself over and over and over and over again.
And last but definitely not least, your very flamboyant yet have not fully come out of the closet yet.... Still just peeking out. Anxiety issues you spoke of earlier I suppose.

Little more:
You read all the time
You have family members that are doctors so you feel it's your right to act as if your one as well.

You have to see that everyone is turning against you here. I will bet it's safe to say that you have plenty of experience with this already in the real world. Probably that it's not so much as real people turn against you as much as it's that never anyone takes much notice of you in the real world(reason for all the reading and anxiety issues).

Anyway you said this is here for us all to share so I have done my part for now.

That was extremely incoherent.

I don't find strangers on an internet forum disagreeing with me to be distressing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. "Turning against?" Hardly. You don't know what my PM's look like. I understand why you need to believe I'm an uneducated disordered schmuck.

There are folks who share my opinion lecturing in schools of psychology, that should concern you. You know how I know that? A psychologist who lectures at a top university is who implored me to avoid pathology and shared that the field is moving that way; I also have a background in academia and have heard the arguments among psych students - so, no, I don't just read a lot.

I have anxiety, there is no shame in that. However, I am not anxiety. Labels help with treatment but they're least effective when people take shelter under them and dont do their work. Anxiety is a part of my identity, not the whole of it. Every human experiences anxiety. The only difference between me and other humans is that mine occasionally disrupts my quality of life - that is what makes it a disorder. It's my job to manage that, not cling to pathology for dear life and aspire to special snowflake status. I own my stuff without shame; I don't rest on labels or wrap myself in pathology and/or lap up complacency.

I work in a competitive high pressure industry and I'm great at what I do. Through my work I get to help people be the best versions of themselves. I love seeing people realize their greatness and knowing I had something to do with that. No one gets there by way of perpetual victimhood.

[vonmoxie]

Something I find especially interesting in the NPD forum is that even supposed non-narcissists really enjoy letting grandiosity fly in here. Methinks we all have some underrealized associations with the traits involved.