Where does "evil" come from?

yup. .

Just a by thought, Hitler also painted pictures.

It appears to me I am now being told there are no evil people, only evil acts. I am incredulous. The acts do not occur in a vacuum. They are the work of choice, unless the person is unable to know right from wrong.

So, a person who commits atrocities is not evil because someone loved him? When did being loved by someone become the criterion for distinguishing moral from immoral?

If I for the most part do good deeds but no one loves me, am I not good? Of course, labels are out. Just the same, if someone tells another I am a good man, must the other not believe him because only acts can be good and not people?

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I can respect that.

Even so, when I see a picture of man that killed 70 million people, I will not be thinking the world needs more people just like him. I will not be back.

http://www.google.com/search?client=...=Google+Search

I think this discussion is getting to the point of really upsetting people, much as I like this kind of illumination. I think Right and Wrong are not as clearcut as we might wish. I think that distinction, which is made in law, is pretty faulty, and is only made because they could not figure out any better way to handle very badly disturbed people. And I do not think that people make conscious "choices" nearly so obviously as all that. How many of us here are aware of feelings that seem to drive us, so much so that sometimes we almost cannot tell what is real and what is not?

BTW, it seems to be well-known that Hitler, for instance, was brutally beaten by his father when he was a child. Irrelevant? Maybe not.

I do not think anyone here feels that the world needs more Hitlers. No one here has said that. Indeed, it is because we don't want that, that we want to comprehend why people do things and how to change that. And I hope you do come back. All have a contribution to make, to better understanding. More discussion can mean more understanding. Less probing will not.

(I did put a trigger icon on the initial post.)

in these types of discussions i always want to ask where the line is. how many bad deeds does one have to do to be labeled evil or bad? who gets to decide?

to look at it another way i read by an author that we are ontologically (in our being) good but morally not so much. that makes sense to me.

“The truth is as simple as it is terrifying:
Sickness is a condition.
Evil is a behaviour.
Evil is always a matter of choice. Evil is not thought; it is conduct. And that conduct is always volitional.
And just as evil is always a choice, sickness is always the absence of choice. Sickness happens. Evil is inflicted.
Until we perceive the difference clearly, we will continue to give aid and comfort to our most pernicious enemies. We, as a society, decide whether something is sick or evil. Either decision confers an obligation upon us. Sickness should be treated. Evil must be fought.” http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/parade_071402.html

I believe "Evil" is subjective, and it does certainly dwell in us all. I make no effort to excuse the evil things I've done, or thought. I think "Evil" is purely a human condition, or experience. I don't believe there's evil in nature. With nature, there are just animals acting as they have been programmed by nature to act. Of course, this is a touchy subject, everyone's experience of evil is necessarily colored by their unique experiences and beliefs. There's validity in everyone's views.

Dear seeker1950,

Thank you for your comment on my post on the thread "where does evil come from"? I sincerely believe that my brother Peter was capable of anything. You have no idea of the pain he inflicted on everyone around him and the total joy he experienced in that pain. That's a very harsh thing to say about one's brother, but after living a lifetime with him I hated him so much that I have no problem saying harsh things about him. If anyone, ever, was evil, he was. And he may well have been like your stalker. There really are truly EVIL people in this world. Why? I do not really know. I do know that there are people who take the greatest, most fundamental pleasure in creating pain in other people, like he did. I do not really believe that he did this out of choice. This was something his personality forced on him. He suffered (I believe) so terribly himself that he had to take it out on other people. I could well be wrong, and of course I want to give my brother every benefit of the doubt, but he could not help himself from torturing innocent people to see their pain.

Take care.

I don't know if this discussion is worth the pain it creates for some. But maybe people think of evil when they perceive that some others seem actually to enjoy hurting people. And I do not dispute that some people really do seem to enjoy it. I have that impression about my own mother at times. I hated and feared her for that, and how she seemed to be able to hide it from others outside the family and put the blame on us. I no longer am as disturbed by that behavior as I used to be; I no longer take it into myself. I see her as needing to punish someone, and rejoicing when she thought she did. I think now her target must have been someone in her early life, and not us. She missed her mark. She wanted to revenge herself on someone else, but did not realize we were not the ones who had hurt her. We got in the way.

I am no longer so impressed by her as I once was! She was she, and I am I. I no longer need to worry so much about what she did.

I think everyone is entitled to be as angry as they need to be about the hurts they have suffered. Fully experiencing your real emotions, I think, and realizing they are inside of you, as all emotions are, makes it easier then to see what is outside, not inside, to analyze it, to see how to make an outcome better when you run across it again in the world outside yourself.

I haven't been able to make it through all of the links yet, or see the video, but I will. This topic is a bit sensitive for me though so it's taken me a day to decide to post.

Just my two cents.....

I too believe that evil is in our (human) behaviors and acts. There are some people who may be born more genetically predisposed to aggression, and if put in a traumatic and horrible environment may develop "evil" behaviors and commit "evil" actions. I do not believe anyone is ever born evil though.

I think it is something like a "perfect storm". You take a child, you suffer them to experience horrible things at the hands of family/society and, depending on their environment, culture, spirituality, etc they start to act out. Some are able to hold onto themselves and find themselves treatment. They make a choice. They are able to see the forest for the trees and say, this is not who I want to be. Others have been so corrupted that they lose the ability to see the forest, and they lose the ability to make healthy choices for themselves so they make the choices which tend to be the easiest ones to make, which generally tend to be the worst ones. It's very easy to make a choice to commit an "evil" act. It's a lot harder to hold yourself up to a higher standard as this requires the ability to recognize your conscience and allow it to be heard. It requires you to be able to tolerate the inner conflicts of "good" vs. "evil", which can be exhausting. Regardless whether you can or cannot see the forest though, it is still a choice.

There are some people who will claim that "evil" is something that can infect people who do things that society has deemed inappropriate. They use "evil" as a way to manipulate others so they will behave in a way that "society" deems appropriate. They are told "If you do not do things the way we say...you are a bad person....and if you are a bad person....then you are an evil person and you will be treated accordingly and be damned to a horrible place, where only the bad people go, for all of eternity. Unless, of course, you CHOOSE not to be 'evil' anymore and you CHOOSE to follow our rules. Then you will be safe from eternal damnation and we will wash you clean."

Wow!! So you have people who threaten and manipulate other people with Eternal Damnation and manipulate them into thinking they, themselves, are actually "evil" and that they will only be "good" if they agree to abide by a set group of rules? Does this not sound mean? It does to me. This is a behavior people CHOOSE to engage in that I find very "evil".

Interesting thread. I have my own views ... but was thinking...

if telling one lie makes a person a liar

and killing one person makes a person a killer

doesn't committing one evil act make a person evil?

Regardless of the reasons (I'm remembering "The Abuse Excuse" by Alan Dershowitz) behind any definition, is the definition itself mutable?

The word "evil" can mean different things to different people. What one would see as "evil" another might see differently. I wanted to comment on Hitler for a moment. I understand that he was abused as a child, to what extent I dont know, but that can really twists ones mind.

Does it excuse the behavior? no, but who knows who or what he had in his life to help him cope. I also know at the height of his reign he was addicted to methamphetamines. This alone would cause psychotic behavior. I believe for one to be "evil" you would have to be aware of your thoughts (understand the difference between right and wrong), know and understand the pain it would cause, and put those thoughts into action.

I cant for the life of me wrap my mind around serial killers. Why do they get pleasure off of torturing their victims and then killing them? I know its a power and control thing but I cant see someone who is sane, making this conscious choice to inflict this type of brutality on another human being.

All this is certainly is not an easy thing to get one's mind around!

I no longer feel obligated to claim that anything is an evil act. If a person does X, then they do X. If it has consequences Y, then it has consequences Y. We can describe those in as much detail as we need to, without trying to hide or avoid what the person did. AND I may feel Z about it. Z may equal angry, extremely hostile, hostile and afraid at the same time. Feelings are honorable. Feel them. They are yours.

(I keep thinking of things I need to add.)

If a person does a lot of damage, then we need to try to do something about that, to the extent that we can. Figuring out what to do is easier if we can think more clearly about it. We need to try to see what things that we can do that will make the situation better. We need to make ourselves safe, if possible. Think, people, think!

Not sure telling a lie makes one a liar, it just makes someone that tells lies. Killing a person just makes someone a person who has killed.

As someone that has experience abuse I find it much more rewarding to drop labels and see behind the action, if we never look behind the action then history is more libel to repeat, if we find out why someone has felt the need to lie, perhaps we can prevent that person having to lie?

I was sitting thinking about what doesnt sit with me with those that cant' see past the "evil" tag or the "Liar" tags, its because its a smaller replication of what Hitler thought, "They are jews", he couldnt see past the label either. A label says more about the thinking processess of the labeller, than it does about the person being labelled.

Interesting that you (the OP) have the word in quotes. "evil"

Everything just is.
Until we assign meaning to it.

Interesting too that "evil" is live spelled backwords. Doesn't mean anything, just is interesting in that evil is often applied to behavior we can't understand or that we don't want to admit a human being is capable of naturally. It must come from someplace else. The antithesis of "live" or the life of a natural human being.

More musings from me. Musings only, because I really don't know for sure. I think there probably are some people who develop "mean streaks" very early on. For example, a child who starts to torture and kill insects, and seems to enjoy it. This might be in spite of the fact that no mistreatment of the person is evident. I think, unless calm and intelligent interventions are made with such people early, that small beginnings may develop into large end results, ones that we really do not want to see happen. It is no favor either to society or to the person themselves to let that happen. It requires intelligent attention to a person's development to manage that sort of thing.

I was not going to post here again, primarily because the Guidelines do not allow some content I believe has a bearing on this issue.

Even so, for someone to suggest those who disagree with him/her think like Hitler is about as low as I have seen it get here. Hitler not only thought Jews were evil, he killed them.

In my view you are way out of line, and owe some people an apology.

You know what doesn't sit well with me - is labeling those believe there are evil people in this world. I'm sure Pachy didn't plan on this thread becoming a discussion about Hitler so I don't blame him. I'm not even of that particular religion and I'm offended - I can't imagine how members who are this religion feel(trying to stay in the guidelines). Poor little Hitler was abused as a child and painted pictures - it makes his crimes easy to swallow. Shame on us for labeling him evil - I wonder how the people lined up waiting for the gas chambers felt. Did you think how descendants of these victims feel, reading this thread?

I don't consider myself a judgmental person, but sometimes you just have to say it like it is. Hmmmm -so lets do away with a labels and let society run wild and if anyone takes a stand, we'll just label them judgemental and not philosophically evolved. Go and tell a mother who buried her child because of a predator, he wasn't evil. Tell the mother in Nigeria, who husband sold her son -to be sacrificed and buried into the foundation of a building for good luck - that they weren't evil. How about William Dinkel - who surfed the net on mental health sites looking for vulnerable people - he be- friended them and talked to them for months, convincing and coaching them how to kill themselves(BTW he's been formally charged -2 victims formally). There are prisoners in jail who are incurably evil - they will re-offend and they don't care what you think - no amount of blind kindness and understanding will fix them. So somethings wrong with me because I chose to call people like this evil.

I think if this thread continues and it's a good thread - Hitler should be taken out of the discussion, because the title isn't 'Was Hitler Evil?'

Sorry, it was me that brought up Hitler in the first place as I felt he was a good example of what 'evil' is. Someone that killed, tortured and experimented on millions of people because 'he' didn't like them. There are plenty others unfortunately that I could have picked. In trying to answer the question of where does evil come from, I tried to show what evil 'is' in the first place.

Hugs all.

I'm not blaming you ((Peg)) I don't think you were disputing whether he evil. My issue is with the other posts trying to understand his background to explain his actions.

lynn, I think this is something that, a long time ago, I discovered myself tending to do: adding to what someone said, things that other people may have said. Not making careful distinctions between what one person says and another says. I think our minds tend to do this naturally, in an attempt to compare situations and find out how this one is like another one. But it has its drawbacks, too. So making distinctions is something that I try to do, and I am painfully aware of how people will think I said something when I tried to say something else.

I don't think that because I am resistant to defining anyone as 'evil' that I am condoning any evil behaviours. I think the point I have tried to make is that labels, any label is too narrow a definition of a whole person. I am not Bi Polar but I do have Bi Polar symptoms and behaviours.

I do believe that a person who engages in evil acts may also engage in loving acts. It doesn't in anyway condone or reduce the horror of evil acts or let anyone off the hook for the atrocities. The person's conduct remains reprehensible.

This thread has clearly gone off track from the OP's question of where does evil come from to who has earned the title of evil because of their actions. The turn has empassioned people to take offense and that is very unfortunate. I am sorry for the hurt it has caused us.

The root of evil.... the original question.... is more environmental than genetic in my opinion. I think I really want to believe this because it breaks my heart to think that children might carry forward the sins of their ancestors.

I was watching a Dr. Phil program the other day. A young man whose father killed his step mother and step sister and is suspected of being a serial killer is suffering from the assumptions of people that as that man's son he is destined to repeat the sins. Or at least highly suspect and therefore dangerous. He is also personally really torn. He still has love for the father he remembers. He remembers him as a loving father. At the same time he hates his father for what he did. He feels guilty now for the love he can't deny because of the horror of his father's actions and is having a hard time accepting that his father might be the serial killer.

He is being shunned and condemned for crimes he hasn't committed. He is a sweet, gentle boy in grave pain. If there is a genetic connection and he is at risk of 'turning on the evil' what are the actions of his former friends and neighbours doing to trigger the evil gene? Who is to say what is going to happen if he is denied community acceptance and the love of those who once considered him family?

Genetic connection or not this boy deserves to be loved and cared for as a whole person. We are all capable of doing evil to one degree or another and I think it is wise for us to be aware of the triggers in life that can flip the switch. Evil comes from a wounded spirit deep within. Just my opinion of course.

Perhaps they feel the similar to how I feel when I listen to people talk about how the United States is the greatest country in the world. I am Navajo, my wife is Spokane; 'the greatest country in the world' butchered my people committing genocide on hundreds of my cousin tribes - the Narragansett, the Powhatan, the Natchez etc. They didn't just kill them though, soldiers cut off the breasts of Navajo women, my ancestors, and played stickball with them. My wife's great-great grandfather was killed, skinned and stuffed and put on display in an officers tent while he talked treaty with her people.

Is the United States evil? Perhaps it was just the president? Which one though...there were so many under which atrocities like this occurred. Oh but it can't be just the president, cause 'we the people' elect him. It is estimated that 60% of the native american population were murdered by the United States government. Now I don't know how many that adds up to but I wonder if the number approaches the number of Jews that Germans killed under Hitler.

I don't believe a person or a society can be evil, but it strikes me that as people look for a representative of evil that they always seem to look as far away as possible ignoring the atrocities at their feet.