I spend most of my life pretending to be real. Have real emotions, depth, empathy, care. To be, feel something that I can't even begin to understand. I can't, anymore, identify which experiences are real and which are part of the facade. Can I truly care about someone, even myself, on any level at all? Can I have any depth in my life? Or are all my efforts just a series of fleeting stimulations to fill this wretched, mundane existence?

If I can't, which I know I can't, then is it wrong of me to pretend that I can? For all these years, I've convinced myself and everyone significantly close to me that I am a semi-decent human being for at least making the attempt to give a care and conform to this world according to its laws and principles. But my attempts are empty; they always have been. The real me, what little of me is real, is at odds with society. I'm trying to be and achieve something that I can't. Therefore, I'm not really "good." That's just me pretending to be a "good" person by admitting that I'm a "bad" person who is trying to change. But I can't change. I'm just pretending again, because that's all I can do. It's all I'm capable of doing. The only difference is, this time, I'm fooling even myself.

And what about those who are close to me? Does it matter to them that I can't love them, not truly? What does it even mean to give real love? If they're happy in their world, does it matter that it isn't real?

And what about me? If pretending is the only thing of which I'm capable and that isn't enough for them, then where does that leave me? "Real" is a goal which I desire but do not understand and am not capable of achieving. Does that mean I give up? Allow the facade to slip and become a social pariah? Or slip the facade back on and, with a joyless smile, say, "... to hell with everybody else."

But I don't want to delude myself into believing that I am a good person. I would like to know if what I do is enough, or if it inevitably harms those around me. Then I can choose.

Wow!....OMG.....aside from the topic,.....how deep,....how well spoken,....how brutally honest,....how in tune with both yourself and the issues that surround your diagnosis,....I could go on and on.I truly wish I knew how to fix this ...."defecit".....for lack of a better term.I cannot.I am intrigued and want to research this.I get things mixed up in my head unless I see a person daily...due to the brain injury.Tell me.....if you could have two wishes in this incarnation ....what ,Myers, would those be.You must give credit where credit is due.Credit and kudos for laying it out there.Kudos for not letting it have free reign.I consider you to be my Friend...idk why.Perhaps due to the condition of my son....or the fact that you hide nothing ...unlike most humans.I so feel for you.Even if that doesnt matter.You are captivating to me somehow.~Wolf~~~~<<~~~@

[Michah]

Hey Myers,

I hear you. I can relate to a lot of what you say.

But what is love? Sometimes we set the platform by societies standards, not our own individual standards. We look everyday at what is perceived as normal expressions of love, and if we feel we fall short of that, then we are considered to be "unloving", cold or "lacking humanity". I have been accused of that many times in my life.

It is not that I don't love, it is just that my brand of loving is misconstrued, ill-perceived and sometimes fearfully rejected. I am not an oddball that is considered strange but affectionally patted on the head and told "Oh that is just the way Michah is, but isn't she lovely?" by the general population. The people that know me, know my warmth, even if it is not demonstarted or even felt by me. My warmth comes and goes and it has little to do with how I feel about that person generally, it is just the way that I am. But if a person was in trouble, or I see someone being unfairly treated, I am on the case to help them, regardless of their relationship to me. That is a strange brand of love in a way, but love nonetheless.

I love my fiance, but my collection of mint condition, plastic covered, Anne Rice book collection brings me the kind of instant visceral joy whenever I encounter it. I do not experience this kind of joy with humans. The joy is transient and it changes, because people change day to day. It does not provide me with the same kind of joy, because it is not private, it has conditions, it will change. My Anne Rice collection never changes, it does not require me to interact with it or explain myself. It does not look at me strangely or wonder why I don't love it enough or any of those things.

My fiance also understands my inner stuff. But I look at him sometimes and wonder if he would not be more happy with someone who hugged him more, talked to him more or was more loving. But he really, really loves me, despite my deficits and my inherent dislike of being touched most of the time (and he doesn't just love me because I cook a mean roast and listen to Metallica)

You love, dear one. You just gotta find your own brand and not set it to societies norms. I know what it is like to be totally exhausted from "loving". To think somedays "Is this even enough? Is what I think I feel, real?" And maybe you don't love like you would like to, but that is okay too, because you are loved anyway.

You matter, and sometimes knowing that we matter is enough to get us through.

Take good care of your precious self,

Michah

[Rhiannonsmoon]

It is a lie, but one we play to perfection at times. Sometimes we have to conform to get what we want, or to avoid what we don't want...

We are better than any shakespearean actor, because we play the role for a lifetime

Originally Posted by wolfsong

Wow!....OMG.....aside from the topic,.....how deep,....how well spoken,....how brutally honest,....how in tune with both yourself and the issues that surround your diagnosis,....
Tell me.....if you could have two wishes in this incarnation ....what ,Myers, would those be.

Thank you. I'm amazed I even found the state of mind to articulate that. Usually, I'm completely out of touch with the "inner me."

Two wishes? I don't know... I would say, "the whole spectrum of human emotion," but, with all the things I've done and what I've been through, I doubt I'd be able to cope with those emotions, especially when I've never had any experience with them. And can I really miss something that I've never experienced? I would like to experience them though. Even just once. Mostly out of curiosity. Would you like to experience lack emotion? Again, just curious.

Maybe a place or relationship where I am accepted. All of me, not just the facade. Maybe I already have that. But, with all the "insight" I've been subject to in the last few days, I'm not sure if she really does accept all of me, or if she just tolerates it because she has nowhere else to go. The real me and the concept of a true, healthy relationship can't exist on the same plane.

Originally Posted by Michah

Hey Myers,

I hear you. I can relate to a lot of what you say.

But what is love? Sometimes we set the platform by societies standards, not our own individual standards. We look everyday at what is perceived as normal expressions of love, and if we feel we fall short of that, then we are considered to be "unloving", cold or "lacking humanity". I have been accused of that many times in my life.

I understand what you're saying. And I agree that love felt by one person may not be as strong as love felt by the next. But I think I'm off that particular scale entirely. My "love" is almost the exact opposite of what you described. I don't "feel" the emotion itself, or any real, deep emotional catalyst that compels me to react with what people would observe as an act of love. But I act them out anyway. And most people, at first glance (and even second and third) think I am one of the most compassionate beings on the face of the planet, if I act well enough, which I often do. But it's all a lie.

I mean ... have you ever seen The Nines? It wasn't that good of a movie, and it reached me on a level that I'm sure it never intended to. But the character in the story is a "9," or godlike being that can create and destroy "realities" at a whim and give lesser beings each their own part to play in that reality. But the "god-character" is never happy with these realities. They eventually fail to meat his expectations ... because they aren't "real." He doesn't truly belong in those worlds. He can't establish any true interpersonal relationships because he isn't one of them. He then destroys the realities and the characters in them and spawns a new one. Anyway, at the end of the movie, the woman character that he has "respawned" through his three lives confronts him about this flux-state. And she reasons that he must leave and go among his equals because the life that he had created for himself and for her isn't real.

I'm not delusional enough to believe that I'm a god-like being with the supernatural ability to create and destroy parallel universes with a single thought. But the essence of that story reflects my state of existence on a less than literal level. My "realities" are my own creation. The "loved ones" in my life are people I've chosen to play their assigned roles. I control my world almost compulsively. I change the characters to fit my "reality." And, if my world ever fails, if I lose control, I create a new one. I become someone else. I find new people to play the roles that I've created. The last world is forgotten, and the people who play those characters are ... not destroyed ... but damaged, nonetheless. When Alice died, I left that world and the characters in it, most of them. The meaning that it had, Alice, the key player, was gone. So I created a new one. I became someone else. And I found Nikki. Do I really love my wife? Or is she just the best candidate to play the role that Alice did previously? Can I love her as a person, or just the idea of what I think the perfect co-star should be? She knows it isn't real. I think Alice did too. I, like the god-figure, can't have true interpersonal relationships with my characters because the "character" I create for myself isn't real and their "characters" aren't real. Furthermore, I can't see them as real people. I know that sounds harsh, but I can't. I've tried; it's just not there.

Would they rather live in a real world that could treat them badly? Or in this pretend "reality" that I've created for them? In the end of the movie, the god-figure ended his "realities" and, in his true state, the true reality became stable, and he was harmonious with that reality. But such a state doesn't exist for me.

Originally Posted by Rhiannonsmoon

It is a lie, but one we play to perfection at times. Sometimes we have to conform to get what we want, or to avoid what we don't want...

We are better than any shakespearean actor, because we play the role for a lifetime

But all the time? What if nothing is real? Nothing but the hatred and emptiness.

[pegasus]

Just wondering Myers, what exactly would you do if you were free to be you. You said you feel you are a social pariah, what would you do if you weren't pretending.

It seems to me that you hold great angry within yourself but are afraid to let any of it out. Anger is just an emotion like any other though can feel very intense. Are you afraid that you would do something really dreadful?

But I don't want to delude myself into believing that I am a good person. I would like to know if what I do is enough, or if it inevitably harms those around me. Then I can choose.

I do not believe anyone here can answer your question. You are role-playing. Your wife and to a certain extent your children have agreed to play the roles assigned to them. Perhaps your wife helps you define your role to better fulfill the needs of the family.

You speak in terms of creating a reality. If you wife is unhappy, you may need to create a better reality. If you do not play your role well enough, your wife may leave. She likely will grieve and you will not.

I control my world almost compulsively.

This may be superfluous. I added it to see if I could get a better grasp of how you control your world.

• 1. (3) compulsion, irresistible impulse -- (an urge to do or say something that might be better left undone or unsaid; ``he felt a compulsion to babble on about the accident'' )
• 2. (1) compulsion, obsession -- (an irrational motive for performing trivial or repetitive actions, even against your will; ``her compulsion to wash her hands repeatedly'' )
• 3. (1) compulsion, coercion -- (using force to cause something to occur; ``though pressed into rugby under compulsion I began to enjoy the game"; "they didn't have to use coercion'' )

I do not understand you coerce your wife to stay with you. Since you do not feel, whether a motive is rational is irrelevant.

Sense 1

urge, impulse -- (an instinctive motive; ``profound religious impulses'' )

• motivation, motive, need -- (the psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a desired goal; the reason for the action; that which gives purpose and direction to behavior; ``we did not understand his motivation"; "he acted with the best of motives'' )
• life -- (a motive for living; ``pottery was his life'' )
• rational motive -- (a motive that can be defended by reasoning or logical argument)
• irrational motive -- (a motivation that is inconsistent with reason or logic)
• urge, impulse -- (an instinctive motive; ``profound religious impulses'' )
• ethical motive, ethics, morals, morality -- (motivation based on ideas of right and wrong)
• psychic energy, mental energy -- (an actuating force or factor)

Sense 2

caprice, impulse, whim -- (a sudden desire; ``he bought it on an impulse'' )

• desire -- (the feeling that accompanies an unsatisfied state)
• ambition, aspiration, dream -- (a cherished desire; ``his ambition is to own his own business'' )
• bloodlust -- (a desire for bloodshed)
• temptation -- (the desire to have or do something that you know you should avoid; ``he felt the temptation and his will power weakened'' )
• craving -- (an intense desire for some particular thing)
• wish, wishing, want -- (a specific feeling of desire; ``he got his wish"; "he was above all wishing and desire'' )
• longing, yearning, hungriness -- (prolonged unfulfilled desire or need)
• sexual desire, eros, concupiscence, physical attraction -- (a desire for sexual intimacy)
• urge, itch -- (a strong restless desire; ``why this urge to travel?'' )
• caprice, impulse, whim -- (a sudden desire; ``he bought it on an impulse'' )

My thought is that sense 2 is a better fit. Yet, in terms of what I understand, both senses are deficient.

[lynn P.]

Society seems to teach us, the union of marriage has to have a foundation of deep love. It's great if this happens but there are many marriages which are based on other motivations like money, status, looks etc. A couple can be married and be very compatible, living a happy marriage compared to a couple who claims they have love but aren't compatible.

I think it's fine if your wife/kids love you but you can't feel it in return. If your wife is happy with this arrangement knowing this isn't a choice by you, then it's fine. It's better than her knowing you don't love her because she's not lovable but you could have these emotions for another woman. Many marriages are based on convenience/fondness rather than the strong emotions of love. If it's works for you and your wife - what's the harm?

Originally Posted by pegasus

Just wondering Myers, what exactly would you do if you were free to be you. You said you feel you are a social pariah, what would you do if you weren't pretending.

It seems to me that you hold great angry within yourself but are afraid to let any of it out. Anger is just an emotion like any other though can feel very intense. Are you afraid that you would do something really dreadful?

I'm not sure what I would do. I'd be like a kid at a candy store in a theme park on Christmas day. First of all, I'd stop hiding. To a certain degree, I mean. Most of my mimics are subconscious, and I can't control them if I wanted. Then I'd find a suitable lifestyle and career, one in which I can use my unique abilities and mindset with free reign and without fear of persecution should my colleagues discover my true personality and intentions. I wouldn't have to uproot and move every time people started getting suspicious. I wouldn't have to deal with that tone of complete and utter disdain from the media. But that's a fictional world. I can hardly even imagine it.

I do hold great anger within myself. I'm not afraid of doing something dreadful while in a state of rage. I have and felt no remorse for my actions, obviously. I am afraid of not being able to control it, specifically not being able to control it and being persecuted for dreadful actions I committed as a result of that lack of control.

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

Perhaps your wife helps you define your role to better fulfill the needs of the family.

That's an interesting speculation. I hadn't thought of that.

You speak in terms of creating a reality. If you wife is unhappy, you may need to create a better reality. If you do not play your role well enough, your wife may leave. She likely will grieve and you will not.

But it's not real, regardless. And maintaining a perfectly crafted facade for extended periods of time is not an easily achieved endeavor.

This may be superfluous. I added it to see if I could get a better grasp of how you control your world.

I don't fully understand my controlling nature yet, so I'm afraid I can't accurately describe it. I do believe it is an inherent part of my personality, as I've always been like that. It is irresistible and an obsession, as I am more than a little distraught when I don't have control over a situation or person on which I have focused my attention. It also often involves coercion. As to what drives my controlling nature, I haven't the slightest clue. I'd imagine, however, that it has a lot to do with the way I perceive the world: as a game, with the people and situations in my sphere of influence acting as the pawns and other such characters. With that comes the mentality of "play or be played." And, if I'm not in control, I'm weak.

Originally Posted by lynn P.

I think it's fine if your wife/kids love you but you can't feel it in return. If your wife is happy with this arrangement knowing this isn't a choice by you, then it's fine. It's better than her knowing you don't love her because she's not lovable but you could have these emotions for another woman. Many marriages are based on convenience/fondness rather than the strong emotions of love. If it's works for you and your wife - what's the harm?

I thought the same thing. I mean, she's happy. Kids are happy. They're getting what they need and often what they want. As am I. Seems like a good deal to me. Why, then, does everyone tell me to leave her for her sake?

The fact that you are concerned at all about the people around you proves to me you do actually care for them which in itself is an emotion.

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by Myers

I'm not sure what I would do. I'd be like a kid at a candy store in a theme park on Christmas day. First of all, I'd stop hiding. To a certain degree, I mean. Most of my mimics are subconscious, and I can't control them if I wanted. Then I'd find a suitable lifestyle and career, one in which I can use my unique abilities and mindset with free reign and without fear of persecution should my colleagues discover my true personality and intentions. I wouldn't have to uproot and move every time people started getting suspicious. I wouldn't have to deal with that tone of complete and utter disdain from the media. But that's a fictional world. I can hardly even imagine it.

I think you could give some more thought to this so that you can be YOU and therefore you would be happier.

[lynn P.]

If your wife/kids are happy and your wife knows of your limitations and possibilities, then it not anyone's business. They shouldn't tell you to leave for her sake especially if she/kids would be unhappy without your presence.

I'm wondering - isn't anger an emotion - so do you feel angry? If your wife/kids make you upset - can you control your actions? When a psychopath does something evil - are they feeling mad or angry at that moment? I know your father was mean - maybe you're doubting yourself because of those negative internal tapes from your past. Just take it day to day - keep the communication with your wife open. If she loves you and is happy - let this be the barometer of your relationship.

Originally Posted by Tishie

The fact that you are concerned at all about the people around you proves to me you do actually care for them which in itself is an emotion.

Thanks Tishie. I appreciate your encouragement. Truly, I do. But I'm not sure if it's them I care about or my own "reality" that I wish to maintain. One person ... that damned woman ... (no one on here) ... said that, if I truly cared for them, I'd let them go. I'm not willing to do that.

[lynn P.]

Originally Posted by Myers

Thanks Tishie. I appreciate your encouragement. Truly, I do. But I'm not sure if it's them I care about or my own "reality" that I wish to maintain. One person ... that damned woman ... (no one on here) ... said that, if I truly cared for them, I'd let them go. I'm not willing to do that.

Anyone who would tell a man to leave his wife and kids when they're happy, is an idiot. She's probably prejudiced, due to the bad image the media portrays or doesn't understand you or your family at all.

I think this woman triggered the self doubt that your father created in you. Can you hear how this woman reminds you of your father? To hell with her opinion - let her worry about her own family. She doesn't know what's she talking about

My hubby is MPD and BiPolar and ADHD plus a Depressive ......

A fair list of things going on with him, however if he left I would be in a real state as I adore him and cannot imagine life without him. I know the children feel the same was as he is dad and thats all they care about.

Please talk to your wife see how she feels.

Originally Posted by lynn P.

If your wife/kids are happy and your wife knows of your limitations and possibilities, then it not anyone's business. They shouldn't tell you to leave for her sake especially if she/kids would be unhappy without your presence.

That's what I said! I mean, fake love is better than no love, right?

I'm wondering - isn't anger an emotion - so do you feel angry? If your wife/kids make you upset - can you control your actions? When a psychopath does something evil - are they feeling mad or angry at that moment? I know your father was mean - maybe you're doubting yourself because of those negative internal tapes from your past. Just take it day to day - keep the communication with your wife open. If she loves you and is happy - let this be the barometer of your relationship.[/quote]

I can control my actions. Most of the time. Sometimes I have to lock myself in a room with a lot of breakable things and a baseball bat and "unwind." We've got a lot of stories about the "outbursts."

Psychopaths are often in that state of rage when they do something "evil," the impulsive "evil" acts anyway. One of my friends, another psychopathic individual, albeit dumber one ... once grabbed a man around the throat, lifted him to his eye-level, and screamed, "I'll hang you with your mother's intestines," because he was tired and hadn't had his coffee yet. Err, that was his reasoning, anyway. All this because the guy was playfully inciting him and jokingly punched his arm.

The planned "evil" acts are often the result of something else, usually suppressed rage coupled with desire for ultimate control. It could be motivated by material possessions, or the thrill of the game: the need to "win," which is also part of "control." And sometimes it's vengeance.

Originally Posted by pegasus

I think you could give some more thought to this so that you can be YOU and therefore you would be happier.

I'll try. It's not like I can just come out and talk about myself, though. Not in real life.

[maureenjs]

i dont mean to be invalidating but i used to think and question everything the way you are. someone very helpful pointed out that i was engaging in mental masturbation.
My best to you.

Originally Posted by Tishie

Please talk to your wife see how she feels.

Okay. I will.

Originally Posted by lynn P.

Anyone who would tell a man to leave his wife and kids when they're happy, is an idiot. She's probably prejudiced, due to the bad image the media portrays or doesn't understand you or your family at all.

I think this woman triggered the self doubt that your father created in you. Can you hear how this woman reminds you of your father? To hell with her opinion - let her worry about her own family. She doesn't know what's she talking about

Ironically, she was cheating on her husband with a psychopath: a relationship she was trying to defend. She had asked what I felt toward my wife in order to compare his feelings toward her and, when I explained it to her, she protested my relationship with my wife, but continued to defend her relationship with her psychopath. She was, needless to say, infuriating.

She does remind me of my father. Well, she praised me copiously for my intelligence, something my father never did. And my father wished for me to leave my family because he wanted me to suffer. She, on the other hand, wanted to spare those close to me. The intentions were different, but the result was similar. And it wasn't just my father, but every authority figure that predicted my life to be nothing but turmoil. It doesn't so much make me feel inadequate. It fuels and justifies my hatred.

It wasn't just her, though. Many people have said that. She was just the most recent. Well, one of the most recent. And most infuriating...

Originally Posted by maureenjs

i dont mean to be invalidating but i used to think and question everything the way you are. someone very helpful pointed out that i was engaging in mental masturbation.
My best to you.

I respectively disagree. I think I'll be more content with my existence if I had a better understanding of it and its effect on the world. In my attempt to reason it... I'll have more control over it if I have a better understanding of it.

[ryoushi]

You're not meant to fit in the world, and you wouldn't be happy if you did. Both you and I know that you need a challenge to indulge yourself in or you'd be bored out of your mind, and that usually means having some beef with someone. You're not the same as everyone else and you take pride in that. You can't have everything, so just deal with it.

Frankie, are you telling me to stop whining? ... Duly noted.

Originally Posted by ryoushi

You're not meant to fit in the world, and you wouldn't be happy if you did. Both you and I know that you need a challenge to indulge yourself in or you'd be bored out of your mind, and that usually means having some beef with someone. You're not the same as everyone else and you take pride in that. You can't have everything, so just deal with it.

Pardon me?

[FooZe]

I was wondering, Myers -- if you really were what you call a bad person (assuming for the moment that there's any such thing), why would you mind being one? And again, if nothing was real for you, why would you care that it wasn't?

( to Tishie for raising a similar question earlier)

Here's a Zen story for you.

Originally Posted by Fool Zero

I was wondering, Myers -- if you really were what you call a bad person (assuming for the moment that there's any such thing), why would you mind being one? And again, if nothing was real for you, why would you care that it wasn't?

( to Tishie for raising a similar question earlier)

Here's a Zen story for you.

I don't mind being bad. I am sick and tired of all the slanderous comments made by the media about the condition "inflicting" yours truly. And, while I think that I've come to accept that I will never experience emotion as experienced by the general human race, it bothers me that I'm persecuted for not being able to experience it. But, pertaining to this thread, I'm irritated by the fact that people assume I'm inferior or incapable of making someone happy, in both intimate relationships and friendships, because I do not experience empathy and love.

*edited*

Whoa... Read through that and noticed that I, again, perceive my problems to be the direct result of society's influence and have nothing whatsoever to do with my thoughts and actions. I guess this current "mood" is passing...

*end edit*

Why do I care if it's real ... I think that goes back to the concept of inferiority. I mean, it never used to bother me, then certain experiences and ideas implied that pretending is not enough. And maybe I'm just irritated that there's something beyond my ability to comprehend.

I really like that story, by the way. It was funny and enlightening.

[lynn P.]

"I'm irritated by the fact that people assume I'm inferior or incapable of making someone happy, in both intimate relationships and friendships, because I do not experience empathy and love."
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I think you can still make your wife/kids happy even though you don't feel love. You're still able to satisfy their needs even if you don't feel love. It's not like you can choose to be different - you were born this way. How many relationships/marriages are for convenience?