[Freedaa]

Can a belief system pass or fail a Sanity Score?

Is anyone else struggling with something like this?

http://community.beliefnet.com/go/th...um=1#522181421

[A_Space_Between]

I'm afraid I cannot be of much help to you as I don't know much about Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I can relate to your issue of wanting to know how the message of an infallible God can be translated by fallible humans. That is actually my main problem with religion (my solution, rather simply: it can't be...but that's a whole other discussion).

I'm not exactly sure how religious you are or, if looking into another belief system or philosophy is something that you could/would be able to consider. I was raised Christian, but I'm not comfortable with a lot of what they teach. I found that Buddhist & Daoist philosophies were a better fit for me. I feel like if your religion has caused you 6yrs of emotional turmoil, perhaps it is not the best religion for you? You didn't state whether it brings you joy or comfort? Is a source of support?

I don't think that any religious group, institution, person or leader has the right to try to make you feel bad or brandish you an 'apostate' for wrestling with questions of the kind you are wrestling with. We all wrestle with questions like yours. It's part of being human.

Good luck to you! (and hopefully I have not offended you in any way. I know religion can be a touchy subject).

I could offer an opinion but won't. I'm glad you posted that though. It brings up some very sticky issues and questions.
It also led me to read this:

Jul 23, 2012 -- 10:17AM, Kemmer wrote:

There must be a lot of JWs in Texas, because the legislature narrowly rejected placing in the GOP platform a law which would forbid teaching children "higher thinking skills" on the grounds that it would undermine their precious pre-conceived opinions as well as undermine what they have learned from mom and dad.

With regard to critical thinking, the Republican Party of Texas document states: "Knowledge-Based Education - We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student's fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." (page 20, Republican Party of Texas, 2012).

I was amazed by that.
Back on your topic... i've known some ex JW and Mormons. They are adamant in the "ex-ness."

[whoswho]

Freedaa, I can certainly understand what you're talking about. I think the disillusionment, astonishment, and betrayal that comes with leaving the organization is very unique among religions and is not easily understood by others.

If you would like to talk about it in more detail, feel free to private message/email me.

[pachyderm]

"Why?" Because there is no single person or thing "in control"?

Originally Posted by Freedaa

Can a belief system pass or fail a Sanity Score?

Is anyone else struggling with something like this?

Hi. I have struggled with this issue. No one from my former parish will now speak with or acknowledge me. Of course, such behavior is totally against what the faith teaches! Nonetheless, they do. I am so glad that I left.

I then found another parish but, again, had issues. I mean, you really expect me to believe this without question? When the people who do believe without question take over, as happened in my last parish meeting, I again jumped ship. I was looking for friendship but found no kinship in people who were looking for magic and were hearing god personally speak with them. Surprisingly, I also met several people who were looking for sexual partners! So much for learning gratitude, humbleness, helping the poor and living a clean life.

Follow your head and your heart. Seek to worship with like-minded people.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by unhappyguy

When the people who do believe without question take over...

Do they believe without question, or do they deny they have questions in order not to feel anxiety?

[Nihil]

Because people don't question belief systems.

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by Freedaa

Can a belief system pass or fail a Sanity Score?

Is anyone else struggling with something like this?

http://community.beliefnet.com/go/th...um=1#522181421

I am so sorry that you have been stressing and so confused and even tramatized with "religion". It is truely important to understand that if you are stressed by a "religion" and you begin to feel like you are "unworthy" in anyway, that means that you need to take steps to release yourself from that religious group.

Religion should "not" be used for "power and control" and if it is, it is being "used wrong".

I have talked about the fact that in our "study of our human brains" we are learning that by studying those that are practicing a faith and are deep in prayer that a part of the brain becomes very active and stimulated. And it produces a tremdous sense of calm, and empowerment, and will to thrive and it does have a lot of power to it. It is no wonder that over time we have discovered this, have been even driven by it and have developed "religions" around it.

It is very healthy to practice faith and stimulating this area of the brain.
However, that doesn't mean that is needs to be so completely directed and constrained that you end up questioning yourself in the way you are discribing.

A "faith" is truely suppose to be used to help you lead a "good and healthy life" and it truely does work and can provide a great sense of belonging and well being. And there are people that get discouraged if they don't quite measure up to or adhere to an organized faith, which by the way is pretty much designed by "humans".

It would be sad if you made a descision to walk away from accessing and utilizing this part of your brain, it is a gift to all of us and each of us deserves to find a way to use it where we can enjoy it and truely utilize it to help us "self love" and "connect with others" as well. It should not be used to gain "power" over others. It should be used to respect others and appreciate ourselves and our lives in a very meaningful and fulfilling way.

My strong suggestion to you is to disconnect with this specific religious group as it sounds like it is not "helping you" but instead is truely "hurting you". Honestly, human beings by the mere fact of their "unknowingness" can create "disfunctional" enviornments. So, it is not just "you" or that "you" are unworthy somehow. And as with any "disfunctional" environment it is best for you to walk away and find a healthier and more productive environment for yourself to thive in.

It is always good to make sure you try to be open minded and consider the whole of "humanity" and what we are learning about our "human brains" and human nature. Religion or leaning about the different ways we have come to understand ourselves and practice different religions is a good way to develope a more personal and positve way to think about yourself, life, and truely develope a personal sense of well being and personal "spirituality".

Just my opinion.

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

(((Freeda))),

In light of the fact that you have been tramatized. I thought I would share what I have learned myself to perhaps help you understand better.

I grew up around the "Christian" faith, and my father was very active in the Church.
My father taught Sunday School and he loved helping children understand faith and he did have a book that was pretty much designed to teach children the Bible stories in ways that children could understand.

Well, my father became discouraged with this specific church and we ended up no longer going to church. I felt very lost after that, and as time went on, I felt that I was disconnected somehow. But I still remembered what I had learned and what I thought is that if I was good that God would love me and I would also be loved by others. I thought that if I believed that God would protect me and watch over me.

I had a lot of challenges in my life and somehow I felt that if I kept praying that God would hear me and answer my prayers if I was patient. I was really challenged and I kept trying to find ways to stay or be good. And as time went on and I went to High School that happened to be private and revolved around the Catholic Religion, which I was not, I kept an open mind and learned about that faith too. But I knew I was not a Catholic so somehow I didn't quiet "belong" like the other girls.

As I mentioned, I had a lot of big challenges in my life, but I kept my faith, the way I understood it, and I began to see that if I was patient, things would slowly work out.
And somewhere along the line someone told me that because I was a "good soul" that the devil would constantly be throwing crap in my life path hoping I would turn bad somehow and that it would be hard for me to "stay good". And I kinda of grabbed onto that, because I had experienced a lot of bad things which are actually called "tramas".

When I had my daughter, I made efforts to help her learn about religion too. And there were times where she too had questions because sometimes her life was hard.
And I always encouraged her to pray and have her own special relationship with God.
And I did tell her that God, is not a Santa Claus, but that he would bring her things in her life that would help her grow and have some happiness too.

There were some big challenges that came too. One of them was when my daughter had her beloved horse suddenly get ill and on the way to the Veterinarian Hospital, it died in her lap. It was very tramatic and she asked me "How could God allow this to happen?". It was a hard question to answer, because honestly, it was tramatic for me as well, and deep inside I wondered the same thing. I told that God doesn't do this, but, he is there for her, to "help" her work through this pain and heartache, and to help her perhaps find another horse that she can continue to learn on. Well, my daughter truely didn't "want to love another horse" because she didn't want to hurt that way again. That is a common response to any trama or loss like that. And I promised her that she would love again, just as strongly, maybe even more and it would make her stronger.

Well, she did find another horse, it was wonderful and she did love it even more and learned alot on it. But, unfortunately, just when she was beginning to really get a chance to enjoy all her hard work with this horse, he was badly damaged by my neighbors dog. It was very tramatic and I also lost a lot of my animals too. And one day she was so upset and we sat on my front stoop and she again had that question and this time she was "very angry". "Why did God let this happen"?

Freeda, I was so overwhelmed myself from so much loss, I have to be honest, I felt so abandoned myself. I did stick to my explaination and told her that god doesn't make/allow these trajedies happen and as hard as it is to pray and he will help her.
But even though I did say that, I honestly didn't believe that myself.

I developed PTSD and I really didn't understand PTSD, I didn't understand the severe depression that is the beginning of the hell of PTSD. And my daughter was strong, trying hard and pushing constantly. But in her doing that, she was pushing me, and because I was developing PTSD it only "aggrivated" the PTSD. And then one day, I had a "PTSD rage" and I blew up at my daughter, and I could not stop it. My daughter was really hurt, and I didn't understand why it happened. And everyone I asked had a different explaination. I was even told that my daughter was spoiled and expecting too much of me and the angels jumped into my body to make me stand up to her as it was time for her to stop expecting so much and she needed to move out and be on her own. Oh I heard so many opinions about how I spoiled my daughter and she didn't appreciate me etc. And the more "religious" a person was that I asked, the stranger the explainations got, including the devil trying to get my soul.

Well, I finally completely crashed and the PTSD got really bad and it took a long time for me to finally learn about what that "PTSD rage episode" meant. And the PTSD kept getting worse and I truely felt I was in hell. And as I began to experience Flashbacks and re-experience so many tramas going all the way back in my life, I truely began to doubt "God" too. I really felt betrayed in so many ways and I got so confused and began to "self blame" and question myself worth and I also knew that it was going to be very hard for anyone to understand it as well. I felt a million miles away from everyone and had no idea how to deal with it. And the more I struggled, the more my family was mean to me about the fact that I could not "just" get over it and move on. I grew to believe that it would be better for them if I disappeared because it was clear that I was a big burden to them somehow. And sadly, all my friends had these "just get over it and stop being a baby" statements too. I genuinely felt like a failure and completely alone.

It has taken me a long time to understand it and find help and work my way through it. And even think about having faith as well. However, as I grew to understand it, and started gaining I began to think about God and faith differently. I began to pray again and allow myself to keep an open mind and find my way to understanding that "God" didn't do this to me either. And as time passed and I gained and learned more, I began to feel that I still could have faith and that I would have an even deeper sense of faith too.

I do notice that many people stop believing or allowing themselves to have faith and even believe that "God" exists. And they constantly support that anger with, "if there is a loving god then he would protect children and good people and we would not see so many horrors take place".

Well, in my effort to learn about PTSD and why it happens and the human brain and how we are designed and also learning about different people and different disorders and so many things I began to slowly think about it differently.

I began to think about my own child and that I always loved her without a doubt. But, even though I loved her and did my best to answer her questions and help her in her life, I could not stop the bad things that crossed her life path. And the only time I could help her is when she asked me to help her. All I could do is encourage her to keep trying and learning and growing and that bad things would happen and each time she had to learn how to keep going and gaining. I told her each time something bad happened she would always learn from it and even learn things about herself as well.

So, with that in mind, I realized that "God" can love us that way too. He is not Santa Clause and his whole purpose is for us to learn how to "pray and trust and grow" inspite of our life challenges. There will be "bad people that come into our life path" and we "will see bad things" and very "sad things" as well. But our quality of life is in constantly building our spirtual sense and will to keep living our lives, our whole lives for however long that is with this personal "spiritual sense" to act as our guide. We as human beings will make mistakes too. We may say something hurtful or react poorly because we are struggling. We have to learn from each of these experiences too and keep making efforts to do better, to understand and forgive ourselves if we do make mistakes along the way.

It took me a long time to forgive myself for that PTSD rage. I still can experience bad PTSD episodes and it is always a challenge to make sure I don't just "self blame" but instead, allow myself to learn from it and keep trying.

(((Freedaa))), I am very sorry that you have been tramatized by an organized religion.
I have shared what I have learned and some of the ways I have also noticed that people misunderstand and use religions. What you "can" do is choose to learn from this experience and continue to develope your own sense of faith and spirituality.
It is a good thing to develope in one's self and can become a very "positive" and "meaningful" personal experience as well. Keep an open mind and keep making efforts to be the best "you" that you can be, but understand you are only human and will be learning and growing the rest of your life.

Open Eyes

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Do they believe without question, or do they deny they have questions in order not to feel anxiety?

Well, it's hard to speak for others. The people I wrote about seem to believe that god speaks directly to them and that makes them special. So, they have this attitude of specialness about them and this focus on magical miracles. That's not what I am looking for from faith so it's a problem for me.

I do think that some of the priests, in particular, deny they have questions about scripture in order to not feel anxiety. The people who are focused on miracles / magic are not concerned with other issues.

I try not to judge even though I am more of a "cause and effect" type of person. Still, I believe that miracles do happen because the existance of life at all, and all that exists in creation, is miraculous. I don't think that religions have a monopoly on miracles. Miraculous things happen to people of all faiths - including agnostics and athiests - all the time! I just don't count on them to happen but, when they do, they bring a welcome surprise to life.

[peaches100]

Hi Freeda,

I'm one of JW who has also experienced clinical depression, GAD, and PTSD. Like you, I've felt the hurt that comes when others in the congregation don't understand mental illness or know how to support those who deal with it. Also like you, I've had occasion to question my faith and commitment as a JW after realizing that, at times, the governing body has been incorrect in some of their teachings. For my part, after alot of prayer, study, and soul searching, I've chosen to remain in the congregation as JW. Here are some points that helped me come to a decision. Perhaps they will help you.

1. A person or organization does not have to understand God’s will perfectly in order to be used by God.

The Bible is full of accounts of imperfect men who sometimes failed to understand God’s will fully, yet God still used them to deliver His messages. For example, for quite some time, the apostles thought Jesus was going to restore God’s Kingdom to the earth during the 1st century. They didn’t understand fully, yet God still used them to preach and even in some cases write Bible chapters.

Also, the book of Revelation shows that the first century congregation had some false teachings going on. Did that mean they were no longer God’s people? No, but they needed correction, which was given to them in Revelation. Today too, sometimes the Governing Body may not fully understand a teaching. But when they become aware of the error in teaching, they make adjustments to conform more closely with the Bible.

Remember the scripture where Jesus told his followers "I have many more things to share with you, but you are not able to bear it at the present time? Learning things doesn’t happen with a sudden lightbulb and full understanding. We start with a foundation and build upon that little by little, adding new dimensions of understanding and letting go of knowledge that no longer fits. As humans, we aren’t capable of knowing “everything” and having “all the answers.” We do our best to understand scripture and live by it, and when we find out that we are mistaken in some way about a teaching, we adjust.

2. What percentage of the things the Watchtower Society has taught you about God and the Bible has been proven with scripture to your satisfaction, so that you believe it and put trust in it?

In my case, I'd say 90%. Do you know of another religion that is dispensing more than 90% truth according to the Bible? I don't. Then what is the benefit of leaving JWs? Does it make sense to stick to a course that has been 90% proven – or is it better to “throw out the baby with the bath water,” abandoning 100% of your life course as a JW because you are conflicted about 10% of the teachings? Assuming you can't find a religion more than 90% accurate, will you be happier in a different religion, or in not serving God at all?

3. When it comes to remaining a JW, or leaving JWs, you can find support either way, depending on where you seek advice.

We are all influenced by the people we interact with. They can shape our opinions and motivate us one way or the other. For example, if I want to start working out at the gym and losing weight, who am I going to seek out to help me? People who eat junk food and whose idea of exercise is flipping the TV remote? No, I’m going to seek out companions who will help support my goals.

If, in your heart, your goal is to remain a JW, then you will seek advice, support, and help from other JWs with this dilemma, with the goal of putting your doubts to rest and renewing your faith. You will also spend a great deal of time in prayer to God, asking for His help and direction, and in study of the Bible. On the other hand, if in your heart, you want to leave JWs, then continue too seek out advice from non-JWs and ex-JWs, who will back up your desire to leave the organization.

It really boils down to where your heart is and what you want. If you believe you are better off inside Jehovah’s organization, seek help from within it to strengthen your faith. If you think you are better off leaving, seek help from non or ex-JWs.

4. Most of all, seek help from God.

Above all, seek help from God and ask for his direction. As humans, we are all imperfect, and our opinions vary. You can find humans who will advocate every sort of lifestyle and belief system known to man. Seek help from the Creator, who made man.

5. Make Sure You Address the Right Problem

Are you sure your main issue is with the accuracy of the Governing Body? I ask this because all JWs study, learn, and prove this to themselves before they ever get baptized. What has caused you to re-question everything?

Could it be possible that the main issue is not with the accuracy of the Governing Body, but instead, with the hurt and disappointment you feel personally from having a serious mental illness that isn’t well understood yet, and for which you have not received the comfort and support you need from the congregation?

If this is the case, stop going in circles about whether or not the Governing Body can be God’s method of dispensing spiritual information, if they are capable of making errors. Focus instead on how to deal with your own hurt and disappointment in not getting the support you need, and how to forgive your fellow Christians for their failure to do so.

I know from personal experience that it hurts terribly to endure clinical depression and anxiety and not feel supported. But it is also true that it mental illness is not well understood yet. This is true, not just in Jehovah’s organization, but in churches and the public in general. Many people care, but don’t know what to say or do to help. Others want to help, but because they don’t really understand depression, their attempts to cheer us up or nudge us out of our mindset may make us feel invalidated. Can we forgive them, understanding that their failure to support us is rooted more in ignorance about mental illness, rather than, as you stated in your title, "displaying and promoting harmful behaviors?"

As stated before, when the governing body sees the need to make adjustments to conform more closely with the Bible, they often do. Recently, the Watchtower Society has begun giving more consideration to mental health issues in an attempt to encourage those of us who struggle. Just recently at a convention, the speaker told the audience very clearly that depression is not a sign of spiritual weakness, and that sufferers deserve loving support and not criticism. But it is going to take some time for people to learn what depression, anxiety, and PTSD are about, and to change their methods of helping to actions that are more comforting and effective. Can you exercise patience now knowing that things are beginning to change in that direction? Can you forgive others for not supporting you, knowing that it is due to ignorance about mental illness and not because they are unloving people who don’t care about you?

Believe me, I’ve been where you are. I’ve struggled with depression, anxiety, GAD, and PTSD for over 10 years now. I’ve experienced the pain that comes with mental illness, from being misunderstood, sometimes by my closest friends. I’ve experienced the hurt and disappointment from well-meaning but hurtful suggestions to just “pick myself up by the bootstraps” or “study more.” I've had friends question whether I'm turning apostate because I've expressed misgivings with the organization. I’ve often struggled alone.

BUT -- I’ve been able to keep in mind the big picture. I’ve been able to see this as a test of my faith. It’s an opportunity to show Jehovah that I love him, and I am willing to serve Him even when it’s hard, even when I don’t feel understood or supported. It’s an opportunity to learn how to rely on him, rather than on other humans or myself. I trust that if I just keep putting one foot in front of the other, and doing my best to serve Him, it’s going to all work out OK in the end.

I proved to myself the teachings of the Bible years ago. I proved to myself that Jehovah’s organization is the one He is using here on the earth. I proved to myself what God’s will is, what He expects of us, and what the future holds. If I’m having a problem now with mental illness, lack of understanding from the friends, the need for support, etc., then THAT is what I’m going to focus on resolving. I don’t need to go back to the very beginning and start questioning everything all over again. To me, that would equate to “not being able to see the forest but for the trees.” This is a big hurdle on the road to life, but it doesn’t have to be an insurmountable mountain. I can get past this hurdle, and I believe you can too, if that is truly what you want to do.

You know, when Job was struck with terrible boils from head to toe, when he lost his servants, his crops, his children, and his health, that was bad enough. But then his three friends, his “false comforters” showed up, and rather than having empathy and compassion, they told Job that he was suffering because he had sinned and displeased God. They basically told Job that he deserved the bad things that were happening to him. But they were wrong. And eventually, God corrected the wrong viewpoint of Job's three "comforters." Job endured that difficult trial, and in the end he was blessed with so much more than he had before.

Like Job, we may undergo serious illness and trials. Like him, we may not receive the help and comfort we need. Well meaning friends may criticize us because they don't understand the whole situation. Others well meaning ones may try to help us in a way that feels invalidating rather than supportive. But can we believe that Jehovah knows the situation and is there to support us? Can we be patient as Job was, knowing that if we stay faithful to God, He will reward our loyalty, just as he did for Job? It helps too to remember that behind the scenes, Satan was the one bringing trials on Job. We know that he will target us too. But if our faith in God stays strong, He will help us through any trial we face.

Servants of God, both in the past and now, are imperfect, they make mistakes, sometimes big ones. But the true test is when those mistakes or sins affect us personally. Can we forgive others for their lack of understanding and support, just as we hope God will forgive us for our failures?

I don’t know about you, but before I was hit with clinical depression, I didn’t understand what it was all about. I didn’t go out of my way to assist fellow believers who struggled with it. To be honest, I probably didn't notice the ones who were depressed. Depressed ones often don't stick out because they tend to withdraw and not share their inner pain. Also, I didn't know what signs to look for. Because of this, I feel sure that some of my fellow Christians endured emotional and mental anguish without my awareness or my help. But it wasn’t because I didn’t love the friends! It was because I didn’t understand mental illness. I didn't know how to identify it, or how to help those suffering with it. I was not unloving; I was ignorant. I would surely hope that the people I failed to notice or help would forgive me for my lack of support. And for this reason, I am trying my best to process my own disappointment and pain, while forgiving my brothers and sisters for failing me in my time of need.

I could have easily left Jehovah's organization because of what I've gone through. I could have let my disappointment and pain cause me to give up. But instead of leaving Jehovah’s organization because it has disappointed me, my goal is to work on my own recovery, so that in time, I can be somebody in the congregation who DOES notice when a person is depressed, who DOES understand what it’s about, and who DOES offer comfort and support in the way that is needed.

How about you? Your experience can devastate your faith, or it can make you stronger. You can leave Jehovah's organization in disappointment, or you can stay and use your own experience to help others. Because we've suffered the effects of mental and emotional pain, and what it is like to not have support, we may be able to prevent others from experiencing the same sense of discouragement and aloneness we’ve felt. We can overcome our own pain and disappointment and be a catalyst for change in the congregations. We can learn to forgive, as we want to be forgiven. We can show by our example how to be "a true companion" and "a brother born for when there is distress."

My heart and prayers are with you,
Peaches

[peaches100]

Hi Again Freeda,

Another thing I wanted to mention is that when you are undergoing severe mental and emotional strain, it is very hard to think straight. You said that you aren't able to process the "truth" that you knew before, particularly regarding the governing body. Much of this may be due to the anxiety and stress you are under right now.

In my own experience with depression and PTSD, it was impossible for me to fully understand my situation, and make good decisions about what to do do, until I regained a measure of my physical/mental/emotional health. . .until I was able, with both therapy and medication, to settle my mind down. I was not capable of making good decisions when I was in the throes of my anxiety and depression. I wonder if this is true for you also, as your thoughts seem to just keep looping around and around about the same issue. . .and you can't seem to come to an answer or conclusion you feel good about.

You've posted non-stop on Web site after Web site about this. You've taken into consideration dozens of different viewpoints. Has this helped you resolve your doubts and come to a reasonable conclusion about what to do? Or has it caused you more confusion and overstimulation than you need right now?

Can you set this concern aside just temporarily and focus on your healing? Once you are feeling more stable mentally and emotionally, it will be easier for you to reason on this situation and make a good decision. I'm talking about very basic stuff that may not seem so important, but that is vital for your mind and brain to function properly under stress:

Are you getting enough nutritious food to energize your body, and fluids to keep you hydrated?

Are you getting sufficient rest?

Has your therapist taught you ways to stop obsessive thoughts from looping over and over in your mind, either with distraction or containment?

Have you learned relaxation skills, and are you practicing these skills?

Have you discussed with your therapist whether you need medications to bring your depression and PTSD under control?

Do you have self-soothing skills you can implement to soothe yourself when you get overwhelmed with thoughts and emotions?

Can you accept, just for the moment, that you don't have all the answers you need, but that in time, things will become clearer?

I'm in therapy too, but unlike your therapist, mine does not blame JWs for the problems I'm having. She says that the problems stem from very early experiences in my life (childhood) that are unresolved. . .and that the current crisis involving the organization is just a "trigger" for the underlying unresolved issues. So we are working on the underlying issues.