Emotional problem is not an insult...

P.S. I never said they were never suffering either.

3) I never said it's no big deal, I just choose to have faith in anyone who's ever suffered (and humans in general) that they have the power within to choose how they respond, think, act and ultimately, live, rather than be told that they're helpless to their brain.

I never use the words "broken brain" myself Dragon, I have used that term here in response to others using it, but I don't tell people that "their brains are broken". I don't believe in that.

You and I can believe what we want to believe, but neither of us have the right or qualifications to tell other PTSD patients here at PC that the information out there about the pathology of PTSD is "false or wrong".

And if you read my "supportive" posts, I am always encouraging others to "acknowlege" how they struggle and to work on ways to "overcome" these PTSD challenges. I am a strong believer in having the capacity to "heal" and "learn" and "develope new coping methods".

I, myself am not on any drugs. I was put on Klonopin for a while and instructed to take it three times per day, well, I don't know how others function like that, it just made me very sleepy and it "did" affect my short term memory. But for someone else, they may struggle so bad they need it, so I don't play doctor and tell them not to take it, but I do express my own challenges with it.

You may be at a point in "your recovery work" Dragon where you are noticing some "gains" and may even be noticing that you are "managing the anger and other symptoms much better", but if you "were" severe at one time, you may not have been able to control it like you do now. I know for myself, I didn't have contol over it. I know for myself, that having people tell me things like "it's no big deal" didn't help at all.

I think it is wonderful that you are determined to "overcome it" and I don't doubt that you "do" think about how we often "design our realities" in a way, I agree with that, and have talked about it in other ways, constantly.

And I don't post alot of the "pathology" that I read about because I don't want to encourage others to determine they "can't get better" somehow because of the pathology discribed by studies.

I have talked about raising a daughter with dislexia and how I learned how her brain is different, she was a part of the years of study done by Yale. And, they have just put out a documentary about the findings of that study. My daughter "did" learn differently than other children. I had to learn about how she learned and where her problem areas were. I believed she could overcome it and I really did support her with it and she kept going to Yale for more studies and they saw her last around age 22 or 24 to see how she progressed and learned around this disability. Now she was not dumb, infact she has a high IQ. They were very impressed at how well she compensated for this disablity. They were very interested in what she did and she did tell them how I helped her learn how to study and learn differently. I was paying attention to everything they told me in that study and I spent alot of time figuring out how I could help her learn around her limitiations.

I talk about that because I do want others to consider working around their challenges, not just determining they "can't" or "are broken".

For myself, and being challenged with PTSD, I did have some very angry reactions to things and it just came out of me. I never had that happen before, it was like I didn't have control, it just came out without my even thinking. I had to learn "backwards" in a way with this disorder. I was lucky that my therapist sat with my husband and explained it, because he finally realized that I just spouted anger and he had to let me think about it "after" it came out. It was alot of work for me too, and I didn't know "why" Dragon. Then I finally read what was not fuctioning right in my brain that made that happen. However, with time and what I feel is "learning backwards" I was gaining "more control over it". So, I am "healing something", but it "is" alot of work, and it does take "time".

I have sometimes shared how I have gained on anger and other things with others who battle PTSD. But "others" are not always receptive, and sometimes they get angry and insist they are doomed or can't somehow. Well, perhaps they are not ready, yet, maybe they struggle "more" than I do. Then sometimes I meet up with these people later on and they are doing better and can now see how they were not receptive back then. And I honestly "understand" that now, because I remember when I wasn't doing so well myself.

I "do" see what you are trying to say Dragon, but what I am telling you is "be careful" because how receptive someone is going to be depends on where they are with PTSD. And you may be smarter and more determined than someone else, so what "you" gain, may not be the way someone else may gain.

By your earlier post, yes, I have thought about just that. I have thought "in great depth" actually about "individual realities" and how people tend to "restrict themselves unknowingly". I have even alluded to that in some of my posts too. Oh, I do see alot, so I understand what you are saying. However, depending on how severely someone has PTSD, "they may not" or "looking at things that way" may be too upsetting for them where they are in their challenge. Remember, there is a little bit of "parinoid" there with PTSD sometimes.

Sometimes I don't want to think about the "pathology" that is discussed when I read about "what is happening in the brain" with PTSD. But when I struggle, I also don't want to think I have failed, because I do work hard at it. And I have yet to meet someone who has told me, they are all better, that they don't still struggle with it.
And I don't like to hear "PTSD has no cure" either, because I want to keep "trying to keep gaining on it". No, I don't want to "restrict" myself to "my brain is forever just broken".

I dunno I like to think of it as a journey rather than an illness or a problem. I think of it as an oppurtunity. I've grown in more ways than I could have ever imagined before. I see things differently, I am more aware of how my actions and my words affect others, I feel more enlightened to my surroundings.

I think everyone goes through SOMETHING for growth and perspective.

As for combat PTSD... I find it offensive to say these people are "ill" because they are affected. That's ****ING NORMAL REACTION TO a ****ED UP SITUATION and I would more worry if somebody came back from hell and be perfectly chill about that. THAT is pathology. (it's not just an academic subject to me either).

Again, why does it have to be considered "illness" to be considered serious? If one loses spouse or family member and is devasted, they are "ill"? If somebody is not flegmatic and whatever-dude to what is happening to them, they are ill?

Btw, I never used the term "dramatic". It's been thrown around by proponents of "illness" model. Why is it that you are either "ill" or "dramatic"... what about a human? Somebody encountering life difficulties?

Maybe it's a self-perception of those who really struggle... maybe "ill" is better then dramatic (but then again "dramatic" is also self perception, and many people don't see it that way). But "ill" creates lot of self-imposed limits. Creates false expections of self and others.

PTSD is not physical brain injury in the usual sense, but... there must be some alteration to the brain -- assuming you believe that the mind is derived from the brain. So it could be considered to be a brain injury, I think. Everything one learns must mean a change in the brain, or else there would be no learning at all.

I think I understand what you are saying, but don't entirely agree with you. It is possible for some people to "come back from hell" and to have coped with it in a pretty healthy and constructive way. The experience does not totally determine how someone reacts; it is a combination of the experience and how capable they are of dealing with it. Not the same as being "perfectly chill", but it can be done, and if it is really done, it is not pathology. And I think that it is not incorrect to say that people who have not dealt with stress adequately may become "ill". Ill in the sense that their ability to cope with stress has been impaired.

I am not saying that war, or any similar situation, is "good" -- I am saying that it is possible to go through situations that most people would consider unbearably stressful and succeed in doing so, and come out "ahead", to master the situation, to do "good" in spite of it all. Again, this is not to say we should celebrate war or other pathological events, but that we may sometimes overcome even that as individuals.

This thread is a good example of what many with mental disorders experience. What is insulting is how aggressively some promote their views at the expense of those who might disagree.

In my view, aggressive, personal responses to the views of others have no place here.

I still think it takes some transitional period for 99%. I knew few war children from ex-Yugoslav countries and they seem pretty composed (but looking closely, there are some patterns that may not be considered "normal"... but I consider it "understandable"). And I think that calling person "ill" for not coping is akin to "get over it". I read few articles on how Pentagon is thinking of taking the "disorder" out of the name.

Yes,some people come out stronger... but I think many can do so... overcome. I read a study (sciency schmaiency study!) that showed PTSD is milder in those who can lean on meaningful relationship after experiencing trauma.

I don't see any "agression". Or if I equal not backing out to agression, then it's on both sides.

but then again, since it can be undone (neuroplasticity) by the way you think and act...

it cannot be really compared to "illness like any other".



although there are people who believe any illness has emotional base. Even physical illnesses and for it to heal, you have to get that sphere right first (I don't agree fully, but i grew up around such people).

What I'd love to see is for there to be more focus on post traumatic growth, instead of the focus and energy that's put into confirming a disorder/illness. It's not just PTSD, but the view of looking and moving forward instead of back.

them alternatives say that every illness or setback is omen for you to think and change your ways.

It might be worth considering as well.

I'm not offended by that comment, "emotional problems" if taken in the right light and taken serously. All of my "problems" are emotional in nature, having been constantly invalidated when young and having very little control over what I feel sometimes.

Not necessarily so, Venus. That is what you see, what you think others mean, but it is not what I mean. Some mean that, but not everyone who uses the term means what you think they mean here.

That is one complicated construct

I guess I am pretty set on knowing "yes, your feelings are valid". "it's you illness talking" seems the be the top one offensive. I'd rather admit to be emocore drama queen.

You are probably right about that!

That is what makes it so confusing (at least to me): the exact words that people use, or the tone of voice -- all the cues, or clues, that distinguish between one meaning and another.

As an example: "it's your illness talking" could be either:

1. a simple statement of what the speaker thinks is the truth;

or

2. an attempt to discredit what you are saying, because the speaker is upset by it.

You have to use other clues (because it could be the exact same words) to tell which is the case.

Or it might be something else...

Hey Venus I was just wondering: you say that these problems arise from traumatic experiences.... But what do you think about the disorders that do not occur because of a situational thing? For instance, my schizoaffective disorder. What about the hallucinations I have experienced? I know there are some emotional aspects of any disorder. I see that people are getting upset over the blame game. Because if its not a brain thing it must be our fault. I just think that is what people are so nervous about. But for me I know some things aren't my fault. But I will do everything I can in order to have a better life without the symptoms. Or try to lessen them at least. Anyway, just wanted to know what you think about that.

Actually I am not so sure it can be un-done by the way you think and act, it interferes with those things the whole issue with PTSD is it's not something you can just think and behave your way out of. And while I don't totally deny neuroplasticity, I question how effective it would be and doubt it could totally un-do the PTSD damage or whatever damage the long term depression has caused.

Of course it is not an illness like any other, much worse(well maybe not, guess it would depend on the illness it's being compared to) and incurable.

I don't know while I see how this veiw point could be beneficial to some, it seems to kinda lean towards 'if I can do it anyone can' sort of thinking. I mean if you have PTSD and feel as though you can do 'just that' whatever it is but its extremely hard then maybe that's more motivating. However in my experiance I've tried and tried as hard as I can to do many things only to burn myself out more and cause further problems so from my perspective the PTSD has prevented me from doing some things...So I suppose I just couldn't apply that thinking to my life.

I say, fault-shmault I think some get stuck on the blame game and who's fault... that they die with not-my-fault. Ideally. But I think after some time, it's waste of time. Even if it's not your fault, you have to learn to live with it. And if you drove yourself cray cray with some unfortunate choices (or made yourself worse)... you have to learn to live with it...

So to me, fault doesn't matter.

As for hallucinations? What I think about them? That seeing shadows, predator drones and other things sucks? But most of my hallucinations do make "sense" in a way (I never seen anything that could not be relatable)... so maybe if I could get some label for it... but meh. It's part of my life experience. "Not my fault" will not take it away. Illness label would make me feel even more out of it. Grounding, self-comfort and finding inner streght helps there.

Btw, don't you have some trauma in the past as well? I think it would be hard to find somebody who has "emotional problems" out of nowhere. (and often what is consider perfect life on the outside can be more complicated and problematic when you look closer).

Growth has to come from "self awareness" first. And for self awareness to happen, a person needs to look back and learn how their "subconsious mind" developed. We are all born with pretty much a clean slate when it comes to the subconscious, and as we grow and are exposed to our world and others around us, we begin to develope our subconscious minds.

While we can "clone" someone, it will not produce the exact same person. For example, if we found a way to "clone" Einstein, it will not mean that the clone of Einstien would necessarily become the Einstein we all know. Who we become, or are, depends on all the things we have experienced as well as what kind of societal messages we receive as to what is "good and bad" etc.

Earlier when you talked about "individual realities" and how someone can be "skewed" and not realize it, but can come to realize it through learning and being exposed to new messages etc. Yes, you are right and all we have to do is look at "human history" to see it.

The other strong "human and mammel" trait is "imprinting". And this is something I have seen many, many times in my dealings with countless children over 20+ years. I have even talked about an example of it with one of my students who's mother raised her dealing with breast cancer and treatment that made her tired alot. This child adapted that same behavior pattern where she was constantly taking breaks and saying she was tired. This child did not even realize that what she was doing and believing about herself, was simply due to growing up observing a mother's constant visual and verbal display of "lathargy and depressive states". The mother, was completely oblivious to this, and told me how her child is not very athletic and can be lazy. However, under my instruction (private instruction) which worked against this, I did find this child could be "quite athletic" and "very capable".

I have also talked about an unpleasant experience I had in what I call a "yuppie" neighborhood that I built a house in. Young couples late 20's early 30's, college grads, who felt they were "all that" because they were educatated, had jobs and built homes wanting to express their "successes". Wow, what an eye opener that was. All I can say is that I did move away from that "fish bowl" of "all that attitude" and later on got to see these people, divorced, confused, with very confused and troubled children with very mixed up priorities. And in that atmosphere one 14 year old boy commited suicide because he was crying for attention and was simply ignored. And one young mother of twins commited suicide. It is actually pretty creepy looking back at all of that.

When I talk to people who struggle as adults from neglect and abusive and disfunctional family environments, I encourage them to look "beyond the abusive person" to see what that person came from that contributed to their "lack".

A big part of gaining on PTSD that can stem from a childhood is not just seeing and feeling the trama itself. It is also working on finding a way to finally "answer the trama with a solution, or resolve". Our brains are designed to "want to problem solve" so that we feel we can "thrive". Many use the term "closure" to describe that moment where something very troubling is finally "addressed" and validated in some way to where we finally gain a sense of relief.

One of the new therapies used for our "veterans" is "operation proper exit" where veterans are brought back to where they were suddenly injured badly and quickly removed, so they can see what happened to the place, and the others they suddenly "left behind". It is also done so they might see that what they were fighting for, did happen in someway.

I am focusing on PTSD because that is what I have been battling myself. And in my journey to understand it and find my way to function better, part of that is about becoming more "self aware" first. And on that journey I am learning to see myself in a very different light. And yes Dragon, I do understand what you are saying about "individual realities" and how often the problem can be due to "skewed thinking or believing" and it doesn't have to stay that way.

However, it takes "time" to slowly understand that, and it also often needs to be "validated' by someone who can understand how a patient struggles and what they need to slowly learn to understand to make gains.

I actually understand what you and Venus are trying to express. There are lots of times where I do agree with both of you, yes I see it. But how "receptive" someone is going to be to what "you" are seeing and questioning, will depend on the severity of their challenge and what kind of help they are getting, as well as what kind of "disfunctional atmosphere" they are living in.

Personally, I don't agree with all these "medications" that are quickly prescibed to patients as "answers to help them cope somehow". And that too, can be seen as a kind of "imprinting", and we have a name for that, "placebo effect". And I really question if we know enough about the brain to even know if these medications "help" or "do they cause more imbalance". I am not very well "liked" because I have questioned that either, especially by psychiatrists who's job is all about prescribing "drug treatments" for patients. However, there are patients that swear by their medications and it is a godscent to them.
So, I reserve my opinions to myself and am waiting for "science and research" to finally get to a point where it is better known "if" drug treatment actually helps.

I do believe, however, that when people experience trama and abuse or neglect or bullying or constant "judgements that are negetive", it can cause them so much stress and duress to where they produce too many chemicals in their brains that can cause damage to the sensitive brain tissues that can lead to them experiencing very "real" challenges with mood, and capacity to think and function in healthy ways.

When I discribe "backwards thinking and healing" what I mean by that is "observing how I react to situations" where I may not be functioning with the same control I used to have, because I have recognized that, and so do many others who struggle with PTSD. My idea is that if I cannot do it "foward" because of possible cell damage due to experiencing too many chemicals from stress and anxiety etc in my brain. My thinking is that "if" I may be able to allow these areas to regenerate and heal by slowly learning how to "control" the volume of emotional chemicals I am unknowingly producing I can make "gains".

If someone considers "broken brain" as meaning they have no choice but to accept whatever they are struggling with as "final" or that "they are just doomed and broken", they can be doing themselves an injustice. I am considering that we "can" "learn" and develope ways in our brains that can help to "overcome" or "work around" our challenges. This is slowly being "recognized" and we now talk about the "plasticity" of the brain.

Well, I have a blood disorder called MTHFR, don't ask me what it stands for! But one of the characteristics of it are mental disorders such as schizophrenia. So I was born with the potential for it. I'm sure my experiences exacerbated it. Yes I do have trauma in my past.

Saying PTSD is a normal reaction is like saying it is normal to get bones broken if you get hit by a car. Of course it is "normal". That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt and cause you problems to be hit by that car.

LOL, I had that a lot, people telling me that I need to scrutinize my childhood because it is so to blame and it can't be perfect.

Eh. No one has a perfect childhood. I didn't either. My parents had both good and bad influence. At the end my parents had an unhappy marriage. I was trusted early to take care of myself. For good and bad. We had stressful family situations. I had two harsh years at school where I was friends with someone who was very bullied. When I was a teen I argued a lot with my mom, she was overly stressed by work, education and family life. I had cool grandparents. I always had at least one friend.

Life is complex. There is good and bad. Most of the bad I actually dealt with while it happened. Some people have extreme abuse in their life. So I'm not going to dig up every little negativity in my life and try to blame my issues on that. Because everyone has bad times. If I felt they had a lot to do with my current situation it would be different. But I don't feel that and I feel it because it is true for me.

What is true for others is true to them.

I don't use any game to blame genes or whatever. I mean I have a physical illness that is part genetic part triggered. I don't blame the genes, I don't blame the trigger. It doesn't make it someone else's deal. It will always be my deal to live with the illness for as long as I live. Thinking I know a little about the causes I don't shift responsibility over to anyone else. It's not "unfair" either. Some days it really sux, and that is life. But if I want to say it sux doesn't mean someone else will come running and take over my issues for me.

I don't think people realize just how true the physical illness analogy is.

Having physical aspects to a disorder still does not dismiss responsibility. People who do not take care of their physical health are far more likely to develop a physical disease. People who do not take actions to improve their health once they have an illness will not become better. Medicating a physical disease may be necessary but it will not substitute positive actions towards physical health.

Physical diseases can be genetically influenced. They can occur to healthy individuals. This is also much like mental illnesses. But you still have a responsibility to take care of yourself.

I know two sisters in their 20's who are very obese. I know that they seem to have a genetic predisposition to their problems. One I know has heart issues abound, sleep apnea, and had ovarian cysts. She posts about these all the time on Facebook. Whether or not these are a result of their weight or a causitive factor I do not know. However, I also know from their facebook posts that they continually fail at taking control of their physical health habits. They can't stick to a diet or a health regimen. I know that their condition represents a struggle that I could not imagine, and if taking care of their health was as easy as it was for most others then they would never have reached the state they were in.

I hate saying all that because I know that one of the sisters is a sweet heart who I simply can't bear saying anything rude about. However, the husband of that sister has joined a medieval reenactment group that I am apart of, and he has used his activity in this society as a motivation and means to lose a lot of weight. We participate in a form of unchoreographed 'fighting' involving armor and heavy hitting with rattan. It is physically intense. He used to pant, heave, and often quit earlier than the rest of us during fight practices. His diabetes and asthma made the physical effort more strenuous than for the rest of us. YET, he returned every weekend! He has also been regularly walking. He has lost weight and seems to be doing better. He has continually been replacing his armor kit for a newer, slimmer one.

We can't hammer the blame for our illnesses on ourselves, but our responsibility can always help alleviate the conditions. Being a 'physical' illness doesn't excuse everyone.