[EliApple]

See below.

[kim_johnson]

Is your google broken?

[kaliope]

im a little confused as to what you are asking for. i know that it is one of the criteria for borderline to have issues with identity but i wouldnt call identity issues themself a disorder unless you are addressing dissociative identity disorder. it would be difficult to answer what you have asked without having full knowledge of the dsm i think. hopefully you can get answers one by one.

[shortandcute]

Originally Posted by kim_johnson

Is your google broken?

Hey, no need to get nasty?

[kim_johnson]

I'm not being nasty. I'm genuinely curious. You want me to google that for you? What is wrong with your google?

[EliApple]

Originally Posted by kim_johnson

I'm not being nasty. I'm genuinely curious. You want me to google that for you? What is wrong with your google?

I guess I probably look like I'm being lazy/dependent. I'm sorry! The reason I posted here is I figured there are people who might have had some sort of education on this type of stuff and I'd like to be able to have conversations with people if they've had any personal experiences with it. I've tried searching for it in the past, a lot, but I generally don't get any helpful results and at this point I wouldn't really know what to search for. Thanks anyways for the offer

To be more specific, I was molested when I was little and I think that's related to this problem, although I don't really know how realistic that is. As far as I can remember, I've always pretended in my mind that I'm other people and I've never had an identity of my own, except for an idealized or diminished version of myself.

I sort of feel like I'm not my natural self and I don't really know what a natural self would look like. I'm very curious how other's self perception is and would really appreciate it if someone decided to elaborate a little bit on how they perceive themselves, or how a healthy individual should normally perceive themselves.

As I said earlier, I have very high ideals for myself and always seem to find something about myself I'd like to work on to help better myself, even if it's becoming more naturally me. I have a weird level of confidence, in that I normally think really highly of myself when I look in the mirror or look at a piece of artwork I've created, but I don't normally feel like I'm really as special as I originally see myself and feel like there's always something wrong with me.

My initial reaction upon hearing about a mental problem, or an undesirable attribute, or a disease, would be to assume that I have that problem until I can prove to myself otherwise. I also have genetic OCD, so it could be related to that. But is it normal for people to have that reaction? I don't see most people reacting that way.

I think the best problem summary I've been able to come up with is that I have a very static view of myself, whereas most people seem to have a more dynamic and reasonable ego. I'll look at myself in a moment and that opinion that I form in that moment is constantly changing. When other people seem to think about their self image it doesn't seem to change this rapidly. So I suppose what I would like to know is, does this sound like any particular disorder? Or could it be how I naturally am?

[kim_johnson]

Hi,

Sorry if I sounded unsympathetic... Your explanation helps a lot

I think you will find a lot of people here who can relate to various aspects of it

A lot of work has been done in psychology over the years on identity / the notion of the self etc. I studied it for a while because... I was very curious about what the self was supposed to be, too.

We used to think of the self as something fixed or static. Fairly unchanging throughout the lifespan. Some people... Think that personality disorders are like this... Disorders of the unchanging self. That is what can be so horrible about being dx'd with a personality disorder. To think that ones self is somehow broken or defective and always will be...

Then we started to think of the self as being something that was changing depending on environment / context. For example, the self that people display when they are in church with their grandparents is different from the self that people display when they are in the pub with their drunken mates is different from the self that people display when they are giving their work presentation and so on... The self that executes Jews on command is not the same self who plays with their kids and so on... The self that helps others when there is the scent of vanilla in the air is not the same self as the one that ignores kitty genovese being murdered...

Sometimes people think that the second line of thinking encourages us to believe that people don't really have selves. Or there is no fixed identity, or something like that. I prefer to think that it shows us that... This idea of the fixed Cartesian ego (or immortal unchanging soul) or whatever... Is a bit of a myth. Most people are a lot less integrated than we typically think people are. Most people are unaware of driving between points A and B (they were devoting their cognitive resources to other things). Most people lose conscious awareness every night when they go to sleep... We aren't typically aware of the discontinuity we all experience every day between sleeping and waking... Or leaving for work and arriving...

Most people aren't very reflective. But those who do reflect... Become aware of apparent inconsistencies or conflicts or discrepancies etc...

[kim_johnson]

So... 'Who am I really?' is partly answered by 'What kind of a person do I want to be?' To think about... What it is that you value. Lets say that what you most want is to be... A kind person. Then think about what kindness means to you... What sorts of things do you think it is that kind people do... Then do them. Or... If you are having trouble 'being authentic' (doing what you believe to be good for yourself) then to figure out why / what is stopping you.

At least... This is what self discovery / self improvement / authenticity means to me.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by EliApple

I guess I probably look like I'm being lazy/dependent. I'm sorry! The reason I posted here is I figured there are people who might have had some sort of education on this type of stuff and I'd like to be able to have conversations with people if they've had any personal experiences with it. I've tried searching for it in the past, a lot, but I generally don't get any helpful results and at this point I wouldn't really know what to search for. Thanks anyways for the offer

To be more specific, I was molested when I was little and I think that's related to this problem, although I don't really know how realistic that is. As far as I can remember, I've always pretended in my mind that I'm other people and I've never had an identity of my own, except for an idealized or diminished version of myself.

I sort of feel like I'm not my natural self and I don't really know what a natural self would look like. I'm very curious how other's self perception is and would really appreciate it if someone decided to elaborate a little bit on how they perceive themselves, or how a healthy individual should normally perceive themselves.

As I said earlier, I have very high ideals for myself and always seem to find something about myself I'd like to work on to help better myself, even if it's becoming more naturally me. I have a weird level of confidence, in that I normally think really highly of myself when I look in the mirror or look at a piece of artwork I've created, but I don't normally feel like I'm really as special as I originally see myself and feel like there's always something wrong with me.

My initial reaction upon hearing about a mental problem, or an undesirable attribute, or a disease, would be to assume that I have that problem until I can prove to myself otherwise. I also have genetic OCD, so it could be related to that. But is it normal for people to have that reaction? I don't see most people reacting that way.

I think the best problem summary I've been able to come up with is that I have a very static view of myself, whereas most people seem to have a more dynamic and reasonable ego. I'll look at myself in a moment and that opinion that I form in that moment is constantly changing. When other people seem to think about their self image it doesn't seem to change this rapidly. So I suppose what I would like to know is, does this sound like any particular disorder? Or could it be how I naturally am?

just to be clear.Im not making a diagnosis. we can not diagnose (tell each other what their problems are called with in them) but going on what you posted....

Originally Posted by EliApple

I've always pretended in my mind that I'm other people and I've never had an identity of my own, except for an idealized or diminished version of myself.

this statement knocks out the diagnosis of DID and OSDD (dissociative disorders that include alternate personalites/identitie) due to the diagnostic criteria states the problems can not be because of fantasy play (pretending/wanting/wishing to be someone else)

that said it is fairly common for human being to have identity problems like wondering who they are/ wanting to be someone else, pretending to be someone else...

this can also be any number of mental or physical problems depending upon other accompanying symptoms..

my suggestion talk with your treatment providers they will be able to explain to you why you are diagnosed with what you are and how to get more testing done if you dont agree with those diagnosis's

[kim_johnson]

With respect to disorders... It depends on what you take to be fundamental to identity.

What used to be called axis II were thought to be more to do with identity insofar as they were unchanging through the lifespan. Personality disorders, as I mentioned before. Mental retardation. Think also of acquired. So... Personality changes or whatever resulting from an almighty whack to the head. Pole through the frontal lobes. Lobotomy.

Then think about memory... Memory used to be thought of as the crucial strand tying together self to self into the past... So interruptions to memory count as interruptions to the self. Think of how people fear Alzeheimers / dementia as a loss of themself... Then think of whacks to the head again... States of unconsciousness... Coma... And of course we have dissociative disorders and amnesia disorders in their various forms.

Depression... Loss of self? All the meaninful and valuable things... The love of life. The expression of self...

Mania... Not happiness... Extacy... Extreme emotions quite divorced from the rational self...

Schizophrenia used to be known as 'split personality'. Not a vertical split of different alters (contextual selves) but a vertical split of thought vs feeling vs behaviour. Disintegration between these parts of self...

*edit -- one of the above is regarded as 'vertical split' the other 'horizontal' i can't remember which way around or who made up that metaphor

Basically... Arguably... Every single item in the DSM could be construed as a disorder of the mind / self.

And... A whole bunch that are excluded due to being the result of substance or organic process, too...

[EliApple]

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate your taking the time to answer.

I've been considering going in for more counseling and it's probably what I'll end up doing. My latest counselor suggested that I go in for some psychiatric testing, so I suppose there was a reason she suggested that. I guess it's what I'll plan on now.

It's really nice knowing that I don't have DID/OSDD, at least not all is wrong. Hopefully it will get better.

@kim_johnson do you know if there is a specific medical field for studying identity and all that it encompasses? If so, would it be an active field and would it be something I could look into for a career possibility?

[kim_johnson]

Psychiatry would be the specific medical field, but that probably isn't what you mean.

Abnormal / Clinical Psychology.

I guess counselling...

The usual suspects...

I came at this by way of philosophy. Personal identity is a known area over there. Lots of that was about continuity more generally, though. So... The ship of Thesus has many repairs done over the years so that not a single nail is left from the original... But the ship of Theses persists. As do we. Despite every single cell in the body being replaced after however many years.

So then I looked at the notion of a 'self' and what a 'self' was supposed to be in philosophy / psychology. The idea of 'multiple selves' and how a self was supposed to be different from an alter (e.g., why dissociative identity disorder rather than multiple personality disorder? what is the difference supposed to be? what is a self / personality / identity?).

I developed a bit of a hobby interest in 'self psychology' which is a school of psychoanalytic thought founded in the work of Kohut... I liked what he had to say about the self... About disorders of the self...

I don't know what you mean about fields of study... You could study this sort of thing from within psychology or philosophy... Counselling... Education... You probably don't want to go do medical school... But maybe you do...

[EliApple]

Thanks for the helpful response, again! I'm a junior in high school so I'm at the age where I'm trying to decided what I'd like to do with my life and am very interested in learning more about the whole concept of 'self' and 'ego' so I figured I might as well ask.

By fields of study I guess I basically mean, for careers, are there jobs that are actively looking to integrate 'self-conceptual' findings or ideas into helpful medical treatment plans? I've been in and out of counseling several times now, and every single time I never really felt like I was getting anywhere or found it very helpful. One thing I would be interested in doing with my life is some sort of 'self-help' research that will help to improve counseling so that when counselors have clients like me, they won't feel like they have no idea what to do with them. (I assume my counselors felt like they probably understood how to help me, but to me as a struggling teenager, I really didn't find it helpful at all... That's why I'd like to make it easier for other people who are in similar positions).

[-jimi-]

I have no idea what makes up an identity. I feel I both have an identity less me which is a weird, raw state, and too much identity which brings confusion but at least it's not emptiness.

I notice psychiatry pretty much skips over this matter. If you don't have dissociation or BPD and you still have identity issues that are troublesome, what "are" you then? Nothing, is my answer, no one cares about that symptom.

I do not have any history of abuse. Yet I had so many personalities it's crazy. And no, to me it is not normal. It's not something everyone goes through. People seem to have a CORE. When I am stripped to the core, there are NO identifiers left!

I realize I will just have to live like this. Psychiatry is not interested even discussing it with me. Books say it doesn't exist. It's fine. I'll continue living. But it makes life choices hard, I don't know which one of me I should listen to.

[EliApple]

@-jimi- Exactly! I feel the same way. I want to figure out what it is and maybe help change the medical community so that this will no longer be a problem.

I've been looking into personality theories for the last several years and have found a lot of helpful answers. It's unsettling though, because it took me several years to figure out what types I was in all these various batteries, and in all the dichotomies I only have slight preferences for the most part... That's why I think there's probably some sort of identity disorder that people know very little about or at least aren't widely discussing.

Have you taken a Myers-Briggs test? It could be related to personality. I'd be really interested in knowing your results, since you sound quite a bit like me. I'm an INFJ and they have an apparent ability to blend into their surroundings and lose touch with their subjective identities quite frequently, as they generally are able to blend into their surroundings quite well. Here's a description that you might relate to: INFJ | arendeepsyche.com

The thing is, I've learned all I can really learn about personalities and egos, and it still feels like there's something a little bit off with my own self-perception. That's why I'd like to figure out what's going on and how to possibly better the counseling/psychiatric community.

[-jimi-]

I am an INTJ the last 5 years. In a way I do believe it could be the true me, but... I have also before tested ISTJ and INTP. The variables that change the least are the introversion and thinking. Right now I identify A LOT with being an INTJ but if I look back, the INTP me stands there in the past, pointing a finger at me, laughing. Well not really, but that is how I feel.

[kim_johnson]

There are lots of theories about personality etc. You probably will find most of what you are looking for within abnormal psychology / counseling.

You might find it interesting to read about the history of psychiatry. There are a lot of weighty tomes, I'm afraid... You might find that early psychiatrists like Freud and Jung are interesting. Psychiatry started out more as you say but it is largely about prescribing drugs these days. Clinical psychology can vary a bit... You might not like cognitive behaviour therapy / behaviour therapy... Finding it too... Soulless... Or... Something...

There are a number of interesting people... Kohut. Klein. Winnicott... You might like psychodynamic / analytic theory.

With respect to a future career there are a lot of people wanting to do this kind of thing... But someone has got to do it. And everything is competitive these days. So...

[EliApple]

@-jimi- I strongly suggest you look into Cognitive Functions and also (especially) Socionics, as they're a lot more accurate and MBTI's basically a load of silly stereotypes :P I only asked you about it because I figured you've probably heard of it since it's a lot more popular than the other two.

@kim_johnson I've read a little bit about Jung and I would love learning more about the actual history behind it all. Thanks for giving me a sort of place to start looking. It's really sad how people are unable to do anything to help actually better things.. I wouldn't even know where to start if I tried to help change things. I suppose I would just start by exploring works that have already been published? If I did that, would I be able to go to college for medical/psychiatric research and then be able to further develop the system? Or would it all just end up not really doing anything because then counselors wouldn't end up making enough money?? :P Terrible how it works. Maybe we could develop some sort of alter self help program in America to help people by giving them helpful information.. I suppose we already have the internet, but I've really had to explore a lot and dig deep in order to find helpful resources. Maybe if there were an easier way to discover problems? Or if they were more widely known? I don't know...

[(JD)]

I was really shocked to not find the DES in DocJohn's quizzes! Here's a link to a free one : Dissociative Experiences Scale

No one can be perfectly diagnosed, especially online, but you can take quizzes to see not only if your symptoms fit into a category, but also to see what is best for you in regards of treatment.

Feeling like you were many and not identifying with any one "personality" of yours can very much be an indicator of DID. But I wouldn't be afraid of any DX because the DX doesn't change who you are, it only gives you a direction for healing.

[amandalouise]

EliApple............I was just rereading this thread and noticed something that may have gotten skimmed over and not taken into consideration.......

one of your posts states you are in high school. thats a tough age bracket and its very common for teen agers (grades 9-12) to question their identity and feel like they have no identity. not only are teen agers your age trying to figure out who they are, build self esteme, build their own self identity theres peer pressure, and a heck of a lot more that goes into what a persons self identity is and feeling like one has their own identity...

heres some links, that the crisis center where I work often uses as a way to help teen agers (grades 9-12) depending upon their level of comprehension, to understand what having a sense of identity is, what Identity is, and in general how it is completely normal for teens, young adults to have issues with questioning their identity and how to learn what their own identity is... Again please dont take these as a diagnosis of what is going on with in you. only a mental health treatment provider in your off line location can diagnose mental disorders in you.

adolescent identity issues counseling
Borderline Personality Disorder and Question of Who Am I
Identity Issues
Self Identity Problems - Online Self-Help Book for Mental Health, Mental Illness

they do not contain and quizzes nor tests. Many teens that come to the crisis center balk and steer clear of such things, and anything found online right now in the way of quizzes and tests are no longer used and lack key questions, not to mention most if not all online tests are manipulated to tell people who take them that they have that problem even if they dont, which can be a bit scary for a teen ager still in junior high with identity issues, so my work place doesnt supply websites with tests and quizzes to teen agers.

[kim_johnson]

Are you really only a junior in High School? You seem very well read and reflective, if so.

Historal stuff is likely to be more accessible. Current research is published in books or journals but some of that stuff can be hard to get hold of even with a University Library subscription. E.g.,:

Psychoanalytic Electronic Publishing

Most clients aren't so well read and aren't so keen to research out what is going on... Most people don't get behind catchy headlines and overly simplistic checklists... Most people mistake a redescription of symptoms for an explanation... Most people... Could well have benefited a great deal from the clinicians you saw... But they were not the best fit for you.

Over the years... Mostly I've been forced to try and work with people who I wasn't suited to at all -- or I got no help at all. On a few occasions I have been lucky enough to have been able to work with clinicians who were reflective and responsive to me... I don't think these clinicians would have been so very useful to a bunch of other clients out there, though...

I think most people (clinicians especially) are drawn to the field because of part of... Something about being the helper they wish they had. It places them well to work with people who are like them in certain relevant respects...

Something I've learned over the years is that great anything is pretty great... But **** anything is pretty ****. What I mean is... There is a lot of great to be found in psychology and counselling and education and psychiatry and... But there is also a lot of **** to be waded through...

I'd imagine you could find what you are looking for / create what you are looking for / contribute towards making things better for some group of people... From any of those... From a bunch of other places besides... But you will have to put up with a lot of crap along the way. Such is life.

[EliApple]

Thank you @amandalouise I'll check out your link. Actually, I think I'll find it helpful because I've been homeschooled my whole life and feel like I've never really had much of an idea of what it looks like to develop identity. Combine lack of conceptualization with anxiety and genetic OCD and it could all add up to this. Maybe it sounds silly but I think there's some truth to it.

@kim_johnson I've really appreciate all the helpful information you've provided! It's been very helpful. I'm excited to feel like I'm able to go somewhere with all this, since I sort of felt like I was "stuck" when I made this post. I don't know if that makes sense, but either way I'm really thankful for all the time you've put into helping me.

[-jimi-]

I took an online socionics test and I was LII, which seem the same as INTJ.

[-jimi-]

I scored 24 on the test but it says Below 30, Lower Association With DID. Does that mean it is possible you have DID if you score above 30? I don't get what they are saying.

[-jimi-]

I would surely not dismiss anyone because their age, sure we are more malleable when we are younger, but when I look back my first memory of questioning my identity I was only 8 years old. So if you would have asked me at 14 (if I had dared answering honestly), I would have been able to say I had these thoughts I was different from others for 6 years.