Question

Ok - so we go to therapy because we have an issue or issues causing us to act in ways general society finds inappropriate or otherwise "odd".

We are then taught ways to view things differently and\or behave differently. After a time, generally when we start showing we behave in the same general manner as the rest of society, we are told we no longer require therapy.

So - here is my question:
Do you truly think that means our illness or disorder has "gone away" or have we simply been taught how to mask it - or is it possible that humankind simply cannot deal with people who think or act differently than others so they simply decide what the best method of thought n behavior is n try to bed everyone to that method n those who do not conform are given the label of being mentally ill or having a mental disorder?

Just a random thought but I thought interesting too ..

In my own experience, therapy was about the giving of and learning of tools and resources to cope with the difficulties (I am bipolar). In both cases a plan of action was drawn up before therapy actually took place. We set targets, discussed how we would reach them, what attaining them would look like, and a suitable time frame to work within.

My illness certainly hasn't gone away. I still am ruled by anxiety and fear but at least I can function through most situations. So yes, therapy improved my condition.

At the end of the day however, I have indeed learned to mask my difficulties.

The fields of psychology and psychiatry keep asking the same questions - what is normal anyway? Is the client in distress due to an inner problem, or is some situation or social dynamic understandably driving them off the deep end? Is it both? How do you effectively help people with that? All good questions.

I understand that - its how most counseling is conducted and the overall feeling of any "successful" therapy. I just have to wonder if "therapy" is really a kind of "programming" for lack of better terminology - to get everyone to think N act basically the same, like you would expect drones to do .. unless they were "malfunctioning" in their "circuitry"..

Like I said though - just random thinking last night.

Very good question. And probably depends on the kind of "mental illness" one has?

When I first went to therapy 55 years ago I conformed pretty well to what society expected, including skinnier females than I was at 14. So I went on a diet, but then got skinnier and skinnier and my parents got worried. They took me to an internist, who referred me to a psychiatrist, who said I had "anorexia nervosa". It used to be that the mortality rate was about 10%. So, yeah, people found that odd -- and dangerous for my physical survival.

This kind of thing was looked on as a "mental illness" back then. Still is, but increasingly what you see being offered is "behavioral health" services. Which is kind of like "why can't you behave better?" More degrading, to me, than "mental health". More focused on the society and what they want, rather than the client or patient and the problems they may be having.

In lots of cases what people are choosing to do, that other people find "odd", is not dangerous to themselves or others but simply makes other people uncomfortable. And so then they tend to judge or avoid or reject us, which makes life not so great for us.

When I started therapy, I was "overcontrolled", so therapists told me to get in touch with and express my emotions. I worked very hard at doing that -- and then the last therapist terminated me because "she didn't have the emotional resources" to continue therapy with me.

Huh?

At least I have a pretty good off/on switch and can still keep the problematic emotions largely turned off when I'm with other people. It means I'm kind of stiff and it requires a lot of energy and hypervigilance and so I don't really enjoy being with other people much, either. That's looked on as "odd", too, of course.

Guess I'm just still a little malfunctioning in my circuitry? Maybe I should stop looking down on myself about that, though? Even if society does.

That's the problem - why should we need an on/off switch? Why not just be us? Yes we need laws. Like "do not kill" but - can't we react to things differently? Think differently? Behave differently? What's the deal with that? What makes it "wrong"?

Hi Crypts, if you don't mind I will consider your challenges which is Borderline and Complex PTSD. I have a feeling the latter is more likely.

The purpose of your seeking therapy is to slowly figure out your personal experiences that caused you to have these issues. All you really did was you developed ways to deal with some kind of neglect/dysfunction/ and abandonment or even abuse and probably things that traumatized you too. So, a part of you did not know "how" to feel safe and you did your best to interact in ways where you felt you were safer.

You most likely have symptoms from these challenges too, and you will need to sit with a therapist where you can both slowly identify these symptoms. The goal is to help YOU better manage these symptoms and also learn how to establish better boundaries with others that can work better and to also understand you have a right to set these boundaries as well. It does take time but the goal is for you to gain new skills that can work better for you, it's not meant to change you to conform, but instead to help you learn better ways to interact in our overall human society where you feel safer and more confident in yourself. This is not even meant for you to wear a mask either, instead it's meant to help you be yourself with more confidence. Also to become more self aware so you can learn how to manage the symptoms that typically present with these challenges.

Because what we do when certain response-systems are on "hurt" other people. Sometimes really physically hurt people. But let's say that's​ not an issue, what we say or do can "hurt" other people's feelings. And so they object.

I tend to think more like you, why can't people accept each other and communicate when they have a problem and people can work it out? But the drones seem to prefer if everybody just behaves the same and follows the same rules. It's kind of simpler for the drones. It was like that in the 1950's, when I learned to "behave" and be a "good girl", and lose the real me in the process. That caused problems, like the one I had. Then came the 1960's and things were "get real" but that was too much for other people and now the pendulum has swung back -- so far back that it may change again. But, for now, it looks pretty grim.

This is why I say we need laws. As far as hurting people's feelings and such - that's always going to happen - unless its "on purpose" but that's abuse, which would fall under "the need for laws".

Exactly what I was getting at, thanks

Actually I was looking for an answer in general terms not about me personally. But if you want to know all my dx I will tell you.

Psychotic depression
General Anxiety Disorder
PTSD
Borderline Personality Disorder

I understand completely the things therapists tell you the differing therapies are for. I am just looking at the overall effect. For instance, take people with bipolar. They are given medication and therapy. That is bc it is both physical n psychological. However, medications are supposedly behavior modifying too - and if you are correcting a malfunctioning part of the brain would you not in effect be correcting the malfunctioning part of the person's behavior (or the part of cognition guiding behavior)? So then - why are both needed unless it is to conform a person to a set standard, and why must we fit into a standard when we are all designed to be individuals?

Also, Open Eyes, I don't know if I sounded harsh in that response - if I did I am sorry. Its one of those days my mind is not picking out words well so I am falling back on the first or second selection I can think of which isn't always the best.

Therapy is supposed to help you understand your own challenges and learn ways to improve yourself, not to conform. It's more about learning skills with help so that you can be you but more effectively.

Yes I know what its supposed to do - the question is, is that what it really does?

Kind of like when people tell someone "hey why don't you come out to the party with us tonight? It will be fun. You will have a blast. You need a change of pace anyway, right?" So the person thinks it over n thinks - well, his/her friends will be there, most likely some music, maybe some food, people laughing n talking - why not? So says "sure, why not?" Get there - turns out the others only wanted him/her there to be the "safe driver" bc they planned on getting drunk and knew he/she didn't drink - so the others wander off leaving him/her alone. So - what was "supposed to be" a fun evening out with friends for a change of pace just became an evening of feeling like a third wheel being drug around N brought out only when useful.

Sometimes what is touted is not what is. So the question is ...is therapy really what its supposed to be or is it just a method to get us to conform

I don't think it's a method for us to conform. Just speaking from my personal experience, I sought therapy not because I was having trouble conforming with society but because the problems I was having were becoming a problem in my life - like affecting my work and relationships and my ability to function. I am considered disabled because of my depression, PTSD, and GAD. I see a therapist to learn coping skills so that I can function. I have no illusion about ever being normal, but I do know that I can learn healthy ways to deal with my feelings and stress so that I can effectively function in the world and, eventually, be happy.

I don't feel anything about my therapy is about getting me to conform. I feel it's about giving me ways to communicate with people that don't create hostility or confrontation and ways to understand people without being paranoid that they are judging me. My therapy has very little, if anything, to do with society, but rather harnessing my own thoughts and brain so they don't make me miserable for the rest of my life.

I do think for some disorders, yes, therapy will help someone conform to society. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. If someone has Asperger's and very poor people skills because of it, therapy will help them learn to communicate more effectively with people and not do things that would normally be considered inappropriate. This will help them function in the workplace so that they can be self-sufficient.

So, yes, there are societal norms that everyone conforms to. You can choose not to conform to those norms, and it may or may not cause you distress in life. People usually seek therapy when their behavior is causing them problems, not just because they don't fit in.

Seesaw

Thank you SeeSaw for your response.

I do agree with the reasons people seek counseling. I just question if the whole reason "our behaviors" cause us problems is because society does not allow for our differing ways of thinking. But I do understand your thoughts.

Hi Crypts -- there are certain ways of behaving in society that are acceptable and unacceptable. We DO need to conform to societal standards. Everyone does, or else we won't be accepted, liked, have friendships or relationships. There's no way around that.

But I don't think that therapy is intended for us to conform or mask ourselves. It is to develop stronger coping mechanisms and behaviors that will help us to manage our mental health issues and relationships more effectively. It is designed so that we can be productive, successful, happy and effective people in life.

That does not mean that we need to stamp out our individuality. People can conform to behaviors that are acceptable and still be individuals. But if you do or say something that is unacceptable, you will feel the repercussions through rejection. Like exploding on people out of anger, for example, or telling off your boss.

Learning coping and management skills is a way to become a member of society in a way that IS acceptable, yes, but that doesn't have to mean total conformity. You can still be unique and march to the beat of your own drum, yet also behave in ways that are generally acceptable by societal standards.

I understand what you're asking. As a defiant person, I hate conformity. It's an insult to who I am and what I want for myself as far as a comfortable life style and acceptable future. I know that none of this will ever *truly* come to pass because life isn't a bed of roses for anyone even if it seems like it is sometimes for some people. I know that I will always struggle with certain things and that really sucks too but, it doesn't have to defeat me unless I let it.
As pointed out by others, therapy is to coax us out of our shells and share our fears, insecurities and doubts so that we can better be understood and to help us to heal as well as to teach us how to function on or near the same level as most others who aren't hindered by the same kind of problems as us so, that we can integrate into society to become a part of it for ourselves and to help sustain it that it may grow into something more than what it already is. It's to help us to prosper in society and to become a working part of it as well. Therapy is about helping to repair a damaged part (the damaged person) of society so that they can return to society as a functioning part. It's not so much about fitting into society as it is about becoming something that will benefit society and help it to prosper but, first and foremost it is about helping the wounded or damaged individual to heal so, that they can have peace and comfort and confidence so that they too can get some happiness out of life and want to stay a part of it and not give up. It really is about compassion for those of us who have been hurt really bad or born with something bad that we haven't been taught how to deal with.
Does this help any? I hope that your depression lifts soon. A little vitamin D will help that or some fish may help to sooth it away. I hope you get to feeling better.

Ok, if you were to share the example experience that you wrote out here in this post a therapist would listen and validate that what you experienced was not nice, these friends were just being selfish and there actions showed you they are not really very good friends and that you now know not to fall into this trap again. So learning from this experience the next time you are asked out like this make it a point to say you want to make sure you are not going to be depended on to drive others and be put in a situation where they only plan on getting drunk and could possibly ignore you.

Unfortunately, we come across people during our lives that behave badly, don't respect others and use. We cannot change other people who behave badly, but we can change how we handle situations so we set healthier boundaries for ourselves.

This is not some method to get YOU to conform, but to learn from experiences so you can be better prepared so you don't experience this again.

My example was meant to show how one can be deceived if they listen to what they are told a situation is for. If I go to a therapist and ask "is therapy meant to help me conform?" they would naturally be more apt to deny that (even if it were true) than to say it were true - same as if I were to go to that make believe friend and say "You just wanted me there so you could get home, didn't you?" they would be more apt to say something along the lines of "no, I thought you would have fun. You need to get out more." than they would be to admit it. The way to find the truth is to talk to someone who is a knowledgeable 3rd party and face the one you are "accusing" with "a list" of facts. Then they have enough explaining to do that either they will just go away or will find a way to defend themselves - defenses are easy to tell as truth or fiction usually.

That's what I was getting at.

I don't know.

To me, therapy also does depend on the condition. The therapy I do because I have autism is different than it is for depression. The former therapy for sure is about conforming. If I don't do this, then this may make be not have friends, being able to get a job, and live how "normal" people live. It's to teach me what is and isn't appropriate and to change my thinking into how "normal" people think. I think very literally. I am apparently not suppose to think very literally since most people don't.

My therapy for MDD, on the other hand, is so I can function better too, but also so I can cope with myself. If I didn't do therapy for autism, I would still be fine with myself. But if I don't have therapy for depression, I can't deal with myself. I have a lot of self hatred. I just want to do nothing all day. But when I am not depressed, I am relatively fine with myself. I still have good and bad days (just how "normal" people are suppose to), just not as many bad days as I do when I am in a depressive episode.

Some aspects, sure, may be to conform to society's standards of getting/having friends, having a relationship with someone to eventually marry them and have sexual relations with, getting a job or career, and live without relying on someone else to pay for myself. But currently, this is the only system that is considered "normal". People judge abnormal people most of the time.

So, if, theoretically speaking, everyone didn't work to get money, we were just given everything for free, so people would just relax with people they care for (since this is a biological feature of humans), then maybe I wouldn't have to worry as much about therapy. But if you feel different from your own "normal" mood, if that person ever had a positive mood to begin with, then they may seek out treatment. Drugs can not change how you fully think. Sure, some people react to anti-depressants and become manic, which would change how they think. But this change is directly linked to a change in your biochemistry; your neurotransmitters that are needed in our bodies to correct send messages to brains.

I feel this issue is quite complex. I possibly can't explain everything.

For me, I want and need therapy. I want therapy because I would like to be part of society's norms of working, having relationships (both friendships and intimate), but also because I need it, or else I can not deal with myself and my own emotions.

Not everything people do/say is about manipulation though crypts. But a person can get to thinking that way "if" they have been around too many dysfunctional people that constantly manipulate and lie in order to get things to always go the way THEY want.

I didn't say "everything". I asked about one thing and used one descriptive example that would be easy to visualize.

Well that's a long question.
Mental illnesses are defined and generalized through a list of symptoms. Once you go to therapy for some time, you will no longer show those symptoms. Whether you still feel mentally ill or not is up to you. If mental illnesses are masked and never gone, then it would mean leaving therapy could make them return at some point, regardless of the circumstances, because our brain is also subconscious.
For example, if we need a source to show up positive ways to view life in order to lift up the Depression mental illness, leaving therapy could leave us exposed to the usual negative world views and projections around us. We could deal with it with the tools learned, but we could also end up with either worn out, weak or old-fashioned tools in need of renewal. This is when the mental illness would return.
As for being fit to society, I'll tell you this. There is no "fit in and life is great", or "outcast and done for". In short, no black and white. And it doesn't even have to be a spectrum. Again, mental illnesses are titles given to a list of symptoms. Even if you do "fit in", there could come a point where you'd ask yourself "what's the point?". Well, I'm at least talking about myself in this, through my observations and some of my experiences. And specifically, I'm talking about various types of people and groups.
I think the thing with mental illnesses is, is not that they are "bad for society", it's just that they are patterns shown on a statistical level to be a sign of dysfunction. Like when a depressed person can be mostly at home, or an anxious person avoiding many things which could help him in the future.
BUT - with that I will say that mental illnesses could be a sign of lack of chemistry with some environmental factors. For example, university could cause depression, but being outside of it makes the depression fade away.

I may have repeated some things you said or pointed out. I am in a state of recovery, so it may be a contributor.

Your answered seemed more focused on the mental illness itself, than on the actual reason for therapy (not the one people think they go for - but the one that it is truly designed for)

Thank you though for your thoughts. I do appreciate it.

Honestly - I don't know if I misworded this somehow or if the concept is hard to understand but I truly feel like most of the people responding are missing my intent. I don't know how to word it differently. I am not upset at anyone and I appreciate everyone's time and effort in communicating their views.

Personally though, I think I am going to disconnect from responding here even though I originally started it.