Once you have a personality disorder dx

I love that quote Rap!

> Better, yes. Cured completely??

what on earth does that mean?

there is no non-arbitrary line between being mentally disordered and not being mentally disordered.

because of the behavioural (including verbal behavioural) symptoms you have you are regarded as 'mentally disordered' and they have even given that a little lable. when you don't display those behavioural symptoms so often or in such an extreme a fashion then... you will be cured.

diagnoses...

are things that make psychiatry feel like a 'real science just like medicine'. the diagnostic categories are largely the result of political agenda and non-scientific pressures. there simply aren't these hard and fast divisions between 'mentally ill' and 'not mentally ill' or between 'borderline personality' or 'bipolar' or whaver other 'mental illness' you care to name...

Oh EXCELLENT post, alexandra!!! I so so agree!

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there simply aren't these hard and fast divisions between 'mentally ill' and 'not mentally ill' or between 'borderline personality' or 'bipolar' or whaver other 'mental illness' you care to name...

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I find it much more comfortable to not even think in terms of labels and just think in terms of behaviors and/or thoughts that I would like to work on changing. It's quite easy to get one's mind stuck in referring to one's self as a label-- when-- in actuality, we are all so much more than any label could ever define.

mandy

but... maybe the question is more around 'will i ever feel better'. i mean... i guess i've given up caring whether they dx me with borderline personality disorder or borderline personality traits or post traumatic stress or dissociative identity or whatever...

none of that changes (well, it can make it worse if i internalise those above descriptions) but what dx i have doesn't really change the things that are / were hard for me.

i think that everybody struggles at times and everybody feels a bit of pain at times. those things are a normal part of the human condition. but a lot of pain and struggle can be very hard indeed. it does get better. the pain and struggle does indeed get better over time. will it ever go away completely? well... wouldn't there be something pathological if it did?

Masterson is also a very famous psychoanalyst who is one of the world's best authorities on borderline personality disorder. One of the reasons he is so optimistic, is also the rub. The thought is that all personality disorders do not have these personalities imposed upon their real selves but that these personalities have become part and parcel OF the real self. It is integral, organic to the individual if you will. However, with psychoanalysis and possibly psychoanalytic psychotherapy there is the distinct possiblity that one can rebuild one's personality. I know it sounds awful doesn't it? But that is one true road to go on. The man knows his stuff.

Well, I need to rebuild my personality. I'm not sure whether there is much that is worth saving of the old personality, which can manage to maintain an act and appear competent when necessary, but prefers to just break down and get someone else to take care of me, or just leave me alone and let me self-destruct. I don't know what's even real. Which is me? Most people who want to present an image to the world will create one where everything looks perfect even though it's not. This serves to hide the mess that they have made of their inner lives. But for some reason, to hide my mess, I create a bigger mess. Nothing makes sense. I don't know why I do that. I asked T how to stop it, and she laughed at me and asked if I really expected her to answer that one. But I really want to stop, and I don't know how.

Well... I have a scepticism around the 'mental disorder as disease' model. My scepticism is especially pronounced when it comes to what are known as 'personality disorders'. I don't like these models whereby mental illness is due to a 'deficit'. I quite often think that regarding people to be defective is one of the important causes for their feeling incomplete and defective.

Sometimes... I really think it is about finding out about who you are. Oftentimes we fail to notice things about ourself (like our capacity for kindness and our desire to be a good person) and suchlike. Or if we do notice these things we dismiss them and focus on all these things we take to be defects. I think part of feeling happier as a person is in becoming aware of these things about ourself that leave us feeling happier about ourself. Pleased and proud of our positive qualities as a person. Everyone has things they want to work on. Focusing on them all the time is only going to result in a sense of inadequacy and hopelessness, however.

With respect to 'which is the real me' people are complex. People often have conflicting desires and emotions at times. They have a range of things going on. Being able to present to the world as competent when necessary is a valuable skill. Some people are unable to pull that off. One can even be a bit behaviourist about it and ask: What more to competence is there but acting competently? One can be competent yet at the very same time not FEEL competent. That is another thing about your personality, I guess... That you don't FEEL particularly competent at times. I don't know anyone who feels competent ALL the time. If someone did then I'd figure they weren't a very good assessor of competence. I don't know... Trying to piece the pieces together... Part of it is about being able to focus on strengths and being able to cast the weaknesses in a managable way. In a way where we can either accept them with a shrug and a smile or in a way where we can take some small steps towards altering them.

Sometimes I think people don't feel like they have a sense of self because they can't look to their self. Because they can't face what they see (which IMHO is a function of their not knowing how). Because sometimes people don't look at us charitably. Because they are projecting their fears or whatever. Then we learn to do this to ourselves and before you know it one can't look...

On a related note... Kernberg thinks that explanation of BPD bottoms out at an innate, pathologically intense, agressive drive.

Kohut disagrees. He thinks that agression can be explained as a response to frustration of needs.

Linehan explains BPD with a diathesis - stress model where BPD arises from a combination of innate dispositions to intense emotional responses with slow return to emotional baseline and an invalidating environment where parents aren't adequately nurturing / validating.

Schore explains the diathesis - stress model in a little more detail. Needs can be frustrated because the infants needs exceed the (m)others ability to provide. This could be because of facts about the infant (e.g., sickness so (m)other is unable to soothe effectively) or facts about the (m)other (e.g., finding feeding painful so cringing from baby when it wants to be soothed / fed) or even more likely an unfortunate combination.

There are a lot of explanations out there...

IMHO... Pick one that leads you to feel better about yourself. The truth is likely to be found in some combination but I really do think that some theorists are unnecessarily pathologising. Most often because... They feel powerless / frustrated in their ability to help hence engage in 'blaming the victim'.

I'm in over my head here, but want to tell what I read in I HATE YOU, DON'T LEAVE ME, about BPD: that author didn't provide much hope for therapy to help the sufferer, but did say that people sometimes "mature out" of BPD.

In other words, there may not be much that a therapist can do, but who can say change won't happen, just because of the person's own makeup and experiences, and I suppose, "maturing?"

I agree with Rapunzel in distrust of the professor who would say what she did. Who can say what lots of awareness and plain hard work won't accomplish?
Too bad you don't have a more supportive therapist.

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Rapunzel said:
I asked T how to stop it, and she laughed at me and asked if I really expected her to answer that one.

That's helpful, laughing at you. I had a therapist who used to go through his mail while I was talking, and another who fell aleep on me (sorry, my fault. . .!)

Forgive me for going in this academic discussion I admit is over my head.

I believe too that personality disorders can be cured,as i had APD and i might have PTSD and in one year i done everything that i hadn't done on my own.That mean that for six months,before it hit me again, i was cured,by myself.They may be difficult to cure,but i believe that they can be cured.

BTW,thanks for your support too.

I don't know the answer but there are 2 things to consider, imo.

One is that each individual is .. individual... and has their own set of symptoms and

Two is that each individual is .. individual... and the degree or intensity of their symptoms is individual.

What can you do but keep working at it?

I am reading a very interesting book that is helpful to me at the moment. It's called "Understanding the Borderline Mother", Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship.. by Christine Ann Lawson. It's well-written and easy to read and understand. It's not always easy personally/emotionally because I see my mother, myself as a child, myself as a mother, and my son as a child... but it's very helpful for understanding. My T was excited that i have it.. I took it with me yesterday to my session... and we will talk more about it next week.

I've never been given the diagonsis, but diagnosis doesn't matter to me. The behavior/symptoms fit and that gives me something to work with.

I think the most difficult thing about BPD is getting the person to treatment because they don't see the need. Once there, if willing to explore and with a good therapist, I think great improvements can be made. I thnk this is true with any diagnosis.

ECHOES

> Forgive me for going in this academic discussion I admit is over my head.

if you have questions about what some of the terms mean then google might be able to help you out. alternatively, people are often quite willing to try and explain things more clearly if you ask.

i fail to see how the thread is off topic.

The only thing off topic was my own post. Nothing was wrong with the thread. I used the off topic smiley against myself, and that's all - sorry you interpreted it the way you did. I apologize for being misleading. I will think harder before posting again.

You're fine, Reesie. I understood what you meant, and it didn't bother me that you told about your therapists. It actually didn't bother me that my T laughed at me either, although I wished she would tell me how to change. I guess it just isn't that simple.

There are some subtle nuances to posting on these boards that you will pick up if you hang around for a while (and I hope that you do). I guess some people are easily offended by some of the icons, but those icons are still available so using them is perfectly allowable. We also need to work on being more friendly to new members.

Thanks for lending a sympathetic ear.

Rap

Reesie, you're fine. I understood what you meant, and also had no problem with you sharing about your own therapist. Actually, I didn't have a problem with my T laughing at me. I just wish that she would have told me how to change, but I guess it isn't that simple, huh? And that was her point.

There are subtle nuances to posting on these forum, which you will get to know if you stay around for a while (and I hope that you do). Some members have a hard time with certain icons, for instance. Still, those icons are available for use and we are permitted to use them. We need to be more tolerant and welcoming towards our new members.

Thanks for lending a sympathetic ear.

Rap

Whew, thanks.

hey there.

> I used the off topic smiley against myself

ah... i thought you were using it to refer to the people who were talking about the theorists...

there are often ambiguities in language. quite often people read it one way and don't even see that there is another way to take it until someone else points out that they interpreted / intended it quite differently.

thanks for explaining. that really helped. i most certainly didn't think that your post was off topic. i'm glad you joined in the conversation.

please don't think harder before posting. you didn't say anything wrong. sorry i interpreted your post the way i did. i'm really glad we were able to talk about this and clear it up.

i'm sorry if you felt uncomfortable or anything in response to my post. i really was... just trying to understand. (i was also genuine about people being willing to explain stuff more clearly if you do have trouble understanding aspects of their posts. if you don't understand... guaranteed that there are other people who don't understand either).

take care.

That's weird. I thought my post didn't show up, because it wasn't there, but now there are two of them. Oh well.