[NuckingFutz]

I do not talk about this much but was wondering if there were any 2nd generation survivors of the Shoah here to talk to? Thanks!

the only stupid question is the one not asked--okay, i give up- what is "the Shoah"?
so i'm stupid-okay?

[NuckingFutz]

Sorry... Shoah is The Holocaust. 2nd generation...the children of the survivors. PTSD touched us even though we were not there. Having trouble staying grounded.

[Hunny]

NuckingFutz,

Although I am not I have a couple friend who are and she definately is affected. She has her Master's in Counselling Psych so I expect part of obtaining that degree was to also help herself and then others in the same situation.

I hope you will find more people to share and be comforted by in the days to come. In the meantime gentle hugs.

My Dad served in WW2 and I know he had issues.

Hunny

Originally Posted by NuckingFutz

Sorry... Shoah is The Holocaust. 2nd generation...the children of the survivors. PTSD touched us even though we were not there. Having trouble staying grounded.

[Gabi925]

Originally Posted by NuckingFutz

Sorry... Shoah is The Holocaust. 2nd generation...the children of the survivors. PTSD touched us even though we were not there. Having trouble staying grounded.

These days I received an email from my friends and I sent it further about a German woman who saved some (I think even one and it's important) children during the war - if interested I could send you personal the email. She was proposed but didn't received Nobel prize for Peace and now she died.

I have many Jewish friends - some in Israeli, U.S., etc - we were together in high-school and still talk because somehow they are the closest friends. When I asked how they find time I get this: " to save a man means to save a world"

Still, sometimes I am telling them that Israeli behave like a PTSD affected nation (hypervigilance) ... like other nations or populations that encountered genocide.

I always wonder if it deserves to live, while being tortured by memories, no matter they made us a great service surviving and teaching us what happened and to do not repeat the history. Unfortunately I think that few parents really show books and read and talk with children about (I do!) and "why?", "how was possible" and the effects... so no wonder here, On the North American continent, Frederick Nietzsche is celebrated for "What didn't kill you make you stronger" adopted by Hitler as a doctrine in Mein Kampf! Tell that to a Holocaust's survivor or the people close to each who suffered for them.

I am against bullying as I have read so much about wars and effects... but I wonder how is to be a Shoah?

Where you abused by the one who had PTSD how people around believe? (sincerely I can't imagine that!)

Could you write what means to be a Shoah?

[NuckingFutz]

I am second generation actually. My grandfather's town had 2,500 Jewish men, women and children. Then the Einstatzgrouppen came and changed the count to zero. My grandfather was sent away 2 weeks prior. He was sent to a farm. He was young, small and gentle. He ran messages outside from a work camp to the resistance with lots of help from resistance fighters. His mother use to dress up as a boy so the soldiers would not assault her. What they learned was to do what you can to survive. This was where they learned to be quiet or die, hide or die, save your rations and eat small meals. Be afraid of dogs. So the war ended. My grandfather met my grandmother who actually survived a work camp. They met in a center to be united in marriage after the war. The most important goal was to repopulate the Jewish people. They could not return home as there was no more home. They came to America and had 2 kids. These children were raised with the parenting skills their parents had (this is where the PTSD comes in). NEXT POST

[NuckingFutz]

Most marriages were not based on love. That is the first problem. My mom learned (and she will tell me to this day "whats love got to do with it") when it comes to love in marriage. Sick stuff I tell you. My mother was treated like a house maid. No love there. She grew up poor but tight knit community. I guess my mom wanted to get away from small Jewish communities. She went to college, acted like a snob and I think she resented being Jewish on one hand and acts like the last Holocaust survivor. Taught me "people will be nice to your face and turn around and call you a dirty Jew". Maybe she believes this because her house is immaculate and she is usually chasing invisible dirt. When a serious religious ceremony is about to take place, it is "too Jewish". Go figure! If it is a Jewish social occasion, hey, she's right there with the best dress, silver candle sticks. She hates any kind of open flame because my grand mother use to tell her how important fire was to cook and keep warm. CONTINUED

[NuckingFutz]

This too was something she hated. My mom lacked a lot of basic parenting skills. It has leaked through the family. My grandfather, he needed love and found it with a woman at work. Good for him. My grandmother found love through her grandchildren. Basically, they told their children marry Jewish and propegate the faith. As much as my mom tried to run from the past, she unwittingly recreated what she ran from. My family would populate a small villiage. Many of my nephews and neices are quite observant when it comes to the Jewish faith. So I hear "that is too Jewish" phrase. All my brothers and sisters work hard to put love back in the family (except for my brother who justs puts money back into his. I left out the nightmares, zoned out looks, the anxiety meeting new people and the graphic part of my history. The point was how it affected me. Mom taught me not to trust (even her). Now that I am adult, she wants me to trust her (no way, she got it right the first time. She is not worthy of my trust). CONTINUED

[NuckingFutz]

They say "never again, never forget". Also, "those who forget the past are condemed to repeat it". I agree with the second quote. My mom recreated the past she ran from. As far as the first quote, not forgetting tie past wasn't the answer, that just reinforced PTSD. One can never just not forget. You have to do something...like tell and tell somemore. Also help eachother heal. If we don't, we will be faced with people like Pol Pot and his killing fields, Unit 741 in Japan, Darfur, Saddam Hussein, Stalin and his Gulags, Abu Gahrab, Guantanimo Bay, and one other place that is so inportant but cannot think of because my mind is blanking out. I think the message of the Holocaust entirely. Ask yourselves, what is the one thing that God can't do that only man can? The answer is simple but the task is a constant struggle. The answer is... All creatures must find a way to get along.

[Typo]

(((((((((((((((NuckingFutz))))))))))))

[NuckingFutz]

Thank you for reading this. I was not in the Holocaust, but still as a human, Jew and someone who has a mental illness, the task now falls to us. To remember, to study and to learn. And then pass the message on to remember, to learn and most importantly to tell. What is my task here? To tell what happened to all those people long ago and pass the message on. It is a little closer to us here than some of us might know these are the people to whom I am speaking. What happened to the mentally ill? I will tell because they do not seem to have a voice when it comes to this dark period of human history. POSSIBLE TRIGGER FOR THE ULTHMATE ABUSE. So the mentally ill came to the attention of the Nazi killing machine. Being efficient, the Nazi's figured that they could not use the mentally ill for their purposes or any purpose at all. Yet they still had to be housed, clothed, cared for. Caring for them costs money. Now if there were no mentally ill people, that money could be used for the war effort. CONTINUED

[NuckingFutz]

These people were now called "life unworthy of life". This made it more "acceptable for the T-4 Nazi program to be accepted. The T-4 program turned asylum shower rooms into gas chambers, vans into mobile death machines, and doctors into murderers. The T-4 program stopped as word leaked out, but the killing never stopped. They stopped using gas and just injected cyanide directly into their hearts. Not many speak for them, but I will. Thanks for reading.

My dad fought in the second world war, he was not Jewish however he wished he was .....

He went to Israel during the war and returned many times after the war. He cried when telling some of his stories. He was a man who did not cry but he cried none the less.

I grew up in east London where many many Jews came to reside. There was a museum as school children we was taken to just off a st called Whitechappel st by the London Hospitial. It was a very sombre visit, even as children we knew/was told what had gone on. Nothing was held back.

For this I am thankful.

Thank you Nutz please continue.

[NuckingFutz]

I am glad someone read this. I am glad you responded. I was just told that the help I offer on here is bs when I was in chat! Was oh so close...damn, I never cry, and hear I am crying. When the anniversary of the Holocaust comes up, I am going to do everything I can to give a voice to those mentally ill people who never had a voice. At least those ghosts won't tell me my attempts to help people are bs. WTF?! Is that like why chat seems like a different world?

[Gabi925]

I am interested of more. could you write together or record them or it's still hard for you?

Chat can be a different world, I rather like it however there are some very rude people who behind their screens and just type some really rude stuff.

I wouldn't let it get to you ! I know its hard but grow a thicker skin.

I value what you have to say in fact on here I find you one of the funniest ones lmao....

I love your off the cuff remarks they are really cool.

Keep posting keep going into chat don't let some rude person (which they are) rule your life.

[NuckingFutz]

Thanks! Someone caught me with my boxer shorts in a wad and helped me out to see the situation for what it was. I feel peaceful now. Thanks for catching that. And again thanks for reading this. It is very healing to write this out. Believe it or not, 95% of my posts and responses are posted on a cell phone. That includes this thread. So my stop gaps are two fold...one being I run out of room and the second it gives both me and you a break to process this heavy stuff. So now I will break hear and share more below. CONTINUES BELOW

[NuckingFutz]

So can you imagine. You have your mental illnesses. But you say, if I had the mental illness I do now but I live in Europe and the year is 1942. You gasp and say but I am not mentally ill enough to be sent to an institution! Why I would be able to take my meds at home and with the support and understanding of my family! No way that would end up murdered because of that! That is because you have to remember the year was in the early forties. Thorozine had not been invented yet let alone all the other wonderful drugs some of us complain we have to take. And the DSM IV? There wasn't even a DSM! So, here we are without meds, without the research we have today. No patients bill of rights, no support groups of any kind. Still think you would be cared for at home instead of being sent to an asylum? Go ahead and close your eyes and imagine how your particular issues manifest themselves without out any kind of treatment. Still think your safe. I know I would be considered "life unworthy of life". BREAK

[NuckingFutz]

Before killing the mentally ill was accepted, I need to mention here that sterelizing was a precautionary measure so we could not breed...too risky. A mentally ill child could be conceived. We are talking forced sterelization. It wasn't up to the patient. Oh, almost forgot. Someone decided that this population would be great to determine the fastest most cost efficent way to do this. This involved shortcuts like not having a clean germ free environment (took too long). Why clean the tools? Waste of time (yes there were many deaths as a result and antibiotics, well there was hardly enough for the soldiers. And then, they even tried non surgical procedures which were even faster. One method was chemical castration using all different types of caustic toxic chemicals. Most got sick and died. Then some doctor came up with killing the reproductive organs with massive amounts of radiation. This would burn the ovaries and testies until they were no longer viable. CONTINUED

[NuckingFutz]

Sigh. This is hard. Please excuse the misspellings and the gaps and stuff. Gabi's right. This needs to go in a blog once I polish it up. I will still continue with this thread. It will be my way of honoring those mentally ill people who died. This included children as well. Wanna know a rough estimate of the deaths? At least 200,000 in Germany and Austria. They deserve to be honor and remembered and given a voice. I will continue tomorrow.

[paddym22]

This is a very good thread NF and thanks for starting it. I am very interested in what you have to say as I am heavily influenced by the holocaust in my life now. My partner is Jewish and his extended family dissappeared in Auschwitz. Luckily his mother only a young child during the war survived as she and her mother were living in hiding in an annexxe to a house here in Holland. My partner like many suffers greatly from the terrors and memories and what if's that took place during the holocaust. He was diagnosed at the age of 13 with a type of PTSD related to the holocaust, I cant translate it into english but he is unable to process what happened as it is too traumatic, eventhough he was not in it. We cannot watch any movie related to the holocaust as it is too close to comfort for him and he gets extremely distressed. We have been on several occassions to the holocaust memorial in Berlin and again it is very distressing.

Indeed you are right people with mental health issues suffered greatly also during the war alongside Jews, Homosexuals and Gypsies from central europe.

Thank you for remembering those.

[NuckingFutz]

Your welcome. Your yourself would have 2 strikes against you. Doesn't that suck. Not being able to revisit this is PTSD. Many who survived the camps themselves say they became emotionally numb while there. Probably the only way to survive. Thanks for sharing Paddy!

[(JD)]

Without my faith I would be very afraid at the present goals of the current administration of the USA. I don't wish a political discussion, but the one of "social justice" that is pressed is directly from the Nazi camp. When I heard a speech last year about old people needing to quit expecting medical care and realize when it was time to go home and die... I cringed. Then when I read what many of the current selected "czars" have said and written about not just the elderly, but the disabled, I cringe.

That there are people in the world today who do not appreciate life, and the lives of everyone - not just able bodied /minded people - is very sad, and scary. That these types of thinkers are in power anywhere in the world is massively concerning to me.

Yes, without a study of the history of the world, the ignorant might allow it again ... and without enough people who understand, who dare to stand up and shout (or post) when they see it on the horizon again ( or in 3rd world countries) they might not garner enough support to keep such atrocities from occurring again.

Not only have those with tatoo'd numbers on their forearms lived with PTSD (even though it began long before there was a word for it) and have not only continued the illness through parenting without healing, it has been perpetrated onto the families though the repeating of the horrible stories and the seriousness of feeling and experiencing the horrors. I believe never forget, but remembering and being mentally affected are two different things to me. There must be a safe way to remember, I think.

[NuckingFutz]

Nope. Not an easier way. Like anything else, the only way out is through. There are large memorials, memberance days. American and Soviet veterans who are bearing whtness and giving testimony to what they experienced as they liberated the camps. There are survivors all over the world some who have gad their testimonials video recorded. There are some survivors that have been traumatized so badly, that although they are being well cared for today, yet in their minds, they still live in the Holocaust which was 65 years ago.

[Elysium]

Originally Posted by (JD)

Without my faith I would be very afraid at the present goals of the current administration of the USA. I don't wish a political discussion, but the one of "social justice" that is pressed is directly from the Nazi camp. When I heard a speech last year about old people needing to quit expecting medical care and realize when it was time to go home and die... I cringed. Then when I read what many of the current selected "czars" have said and written about not just the elderly, but the disabled, I cringe.

That there are people in the world today who do not appreciate life, and the lives of everyone - not just able bodied /minded people - is very sad, and scary. That these types of thinkers are in power anywhere in the world is massively concerning to me.

Yes, without a study of the history of the world, the ignorant might allow it again ... and without enough people who understand, who dare to stand up and shout (or post) when they see it on the horizon again ( or in 3rd world countries) they might not garner enough support to keep such atrocities from occurring again.

Not only have those with tatoo'd numbers on their forearms lived with PTSD (even though it began long before there was a word for it) and have not only continued the illness through parenting without healing, it has been perpetrated onto the families though the repeating of the horrible stories and the seriousness of feeling and experiencing the horrors. I believe never forget, but remembering and being mentally affected are two different things to me. There must be a safe way to remember, I think.

_Sky....

I mean....(JD)....

Thank you for your opinion.