[MotownJohnny]

CBT. DBT. EMDR. Etc. Maybe I am just too cynical. All sounds like something Oprah would have gushed over back in the day when she was reinventing herself as America's new age spiritual cheerleader.

Does any of this stuff actually work? Because I am getting sick of throwing time and money down the rabbit hole?

If something can fix me to the point I can be relatively happy on a day by day basis I will do it.

But if it my destiny to walk around unhappy plagued by constant bad memories, dark thoughts, fears, fine, time to accept that and roll with it.

I am like Teacake - coming up on the time of year where anniversary dates of "what happened" really bother me - they certainly did last year.

Two years of struggle upon the heels of a lifetime of struggle - all set in motion before I was ever conceived- perpetual punishment for a crime I didn't even commit.

I am sick of the struggle. Happy or sad, I just want peace and closure. I just want to live in an "ordinary world" that doesn't revolve around doctors and therapists and psychotropic drugs and support or lack thereof and yada yada yada.

Is there any realistic way to achieve that? Are there success stories out there who just don't share their wisdom here very much? People who look back and think "wow, glad I am all done with that!"

[Open Eyes]

Mowtown, I hear DBT helps a real lot, I have been considering that myself. Yes, there are success stories, they move on and engage life again, they don't stop by in these forums much, but it doesn't mean there are no success stories.

Life is a challenge, it just is and you just need to keep working at it everyday and give yourself time off and keep doing self care.

((Hugs))
OE

[JaneC]

I don't know, I am not done yet. I can see good changes already. I just keep holding on to the hope that I will be "done enough" sometime not too far away.

I do believe that if I follow through with this therapy, even though I often don't want to, I will be living a far happier life than I have been and am currently. I refuse any medication because I do not believe that is a solution for me. I need to talk it out, and I hope I will.

I hope you will get to a place that will be good enough, happy enough, for you too Johnny.

[splitimage]

I have found all of CBT, DBT and EMDR helpful, but for different things.

I've used CBT extensively in rehab, and also did a CBT program for social phobia that took me from a state of near agoraphobia to going out comfortably in most social situations. I find CBT really helpful in challenging negative thought patterns. But like anything you really have to work on it.

DBT was also helpful, but it's not designed specifically for PTSD. It was originally developed to treat borderline personality disorder and so is focussed on emotional regulation and stopping self destructive behaviours. It's hard it's intense, it's generally long term - the program I did was 26 weeks, but most programs are at least 6 months, and you really have to work at the homework and practice the skills between sessions to get the most out of it. DBT can also be hard to find.

I did EMDR off and on for about 12 years with a private psychologist. I found it helpful, but I'd offer the observation that it's probably more helpful for single incident trauma rather than chronic.

The two most useful therapies I've found for dealing with PTSD is Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy, and one on one working with a therapist going through a workbook, called "Life after Trauma".

Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy was originally developed for people with multiple episodes of depression and is a really intense 8 or 12 week program that places a heavy emphasis on Mindfulness meditation. That was my introduction to Mindfulness and I now try to use it on a daily basis. It really helps me. If you want a good stating reference, I recommend Jon Kabat-Zin's "Mindfulness for Beginners" It's a very accessible introduction to Mindfulness.

The second thing I mentioned is working through th workbook, "Life after Trauma with a therapist. You do not go back and revisit the trauma. Instead the focus is entirely on the present and how your trauma has affected your life in terms of beliefs about feelings, safety, interpersonal relationships and so on. I'm finding it incredibly helpful.

Finally the thing I'll add that helped me the most, was just making up my mind to let it go. Yes a ton of bad things happenned to me as a child, and I acknowledged then and grieved them, but I had to let go of them, and stop dwelling on them and using them as excuses for not moving on with my life. This is not an overnight progress I had a lot of back and forth movement, but I finally made up my mind that the past was not going to control me any longer.

Yes i still get upset around certain anniversaries, and some times of the year are more difficult than others, but I'd say my PTSD is now largely under control. Except for rare occassions my hypervigilance is now much more manageable. My startle response is a lot lower. I have openned up to friends which was critical and so I have a great support network. I still get nightmares but they're not as bad as they use to be. And I'm starting to remember positive things about my childhood, rather than just being largely dissociated from the whole thing.

So yes I do believe it's possible to recover from PTSD - but you have to be willing to let the past go, and do the work of therapy that helps you address the symptoms until you're able to move on with your life and build a better present.

splitimage

[MotownJohnny]

All of you must be SO sick of me ... I am Broken record - I was writing the same things a year ago.

"Finally the thing I'll add that helped me the most, was just making up my mind to let it go." -SplitImage

How do you actually DO that? Believe me, I don't LIKE thinking about all of this stuff 24/7, it just "pops into my mind" against my will.

[splitimage]

Johnny - believe me, I am not sick of you. I was once where you are. Believe me I've been working on this for a very long time.

If thoughts are as you put it just "popping into your head" I think you'd find CBT helpful. It's all about recognizing distorted and unhelpful thinking, and challenging it. There are a number of tools, but the one I find most helpful is called a thought record. So say you get a negative thought "I'm a loser" you write it down, and write down any feelings you're having that are associated with the throught. Then you write down, as best you can objective evidence for and against the thought. But they have to be facts, they can't be your beliefs.

So for me the facts against the thought "I'm a loser" might look like something like this:

I got my MBA
I got my CPA
I have friends
I play the harp well,
I have an offer of a book deal
I've been told I'm a good writer.

The facts that support the thought for me would be.
I don't have a job, although that's more of a belief since not having a job doesn't necessarily make anyone a loser.
I've had trouble staying sober. Again there's an element of judgement there.

Then you look at all the facts and see if you can come up with a more balanced belief. In my case that might be something like, "While I struggle with some things in life, I have been and am successeful in other things, so I'm not a total loser."

If you want a good book on CBT, get "Mind over Mood" it's what all the CBT programs up here use.

As for letting it go, that took a lot of time and hard work. Now whenever I get a negative thought around my PTSD, usually about how much I've suffered, I jsut go stop - not going there, that was the past, it's no longer true/happening, and I'm ok today. This is where I find mindfulness really helps, both in paying attention to my thought patterns, and staying in the present.

splitimage

CBT, not exclusively, but in conjunction with other therapy techniques, was hugely beneficial for me. I had so many deeply ingrained, mistaken beliefs about myself and the world that drove my emotions and moods. CBT worked well to help me challenge that old, toxic thinking and finally start to move on. But it won't happen overnight. It took me years to get to the state I was in, and it took me years to get through it so I could move forward. You have to have some patience with yourself and the process.

[MotownJohnny]

I wonder if I'm doing the "wrong kind" of therapy. It's just "talk therapy" - no particular method or plan that I see - just going in there every week and talking about "how was your week" or "what happened" and "how do you feel about it" really isn't getting me anywhere. In some ways, it actually reinforces the negative, because it's yet another hour of my life to bring up some past unhappy event and bring that into the present.

Alas, patience is NOT my virtue - I want every done "now, now, now". I guess that was all a part of the pressure put on me as a kid, everything had to be perfect, and with 10,000 things thrown at me all of the time, I had to learn to put out fires on the spot. And alas, none of those 10,000 things were every the things I wanted to do, just the things I felt I had to do, or was made to do. Mostly helping out my poor mom, because of course, she too had to be perfect, or else, whammo. She worked so hard keeping the house perfect, cooking elaborate meals, whatever it took to keep him happy, so I learned early to help her and pick up her slack.

He may be effed up, but hey, at least the boy can cook!

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

I wonder if I'm doing the "wrong kind" of therapy. It's just "talk therapy" - no particular method or plan that I see - just going in there every week and talking about "how was your week" or "what happened" and "how do you feel about it" really isn't getting me anywhere. In some ways, it actually reinforces the negative, because it's yet another hour of my life to bring up some past unhappy event and bring that into the present.

Alas, patience is NOT my virtue - I want every done "now, now, now". I guess that was all a part of the pressure put on me as a kid, everything had to be perfect, and with 10,000 things thrown at me all of the time, I had to learn to put out fires on the spot. And alas, none of those 10,000 things were every the things I wanted to do, just the things I felt I had to do, or was made to do. Mostly helping out my poor mom, because of course, she too had to be perfect, or else, whammo. She worked so hard keeping the house perfect, cooking elaborate meals, whatever it took to keep him happy, so I learned early to help her and pick up her slack.

He may be effed up, but hey, at least the boy can cook!

moTown mental health treatment of any kind is just like medications what helps one person may not help other. its a situation where each person has their own physical and mental "make up" and as a result what can work for some doesnt work for others....

example both my wife and I are bipolar disordered. but we are on completely different medications/ therapy techniques/ treatment plans because one way works for me and another way works for her.

keep working with your treatment providers and sooner or later you and your treatment providers will find that one way or combination of ways that works for you,

[Open Eyes]

Mowtown, you are slowly identifying your set unhealthy patterns. You were pretty much held captive in a situation where you developed ways of thriving in that dysfunction that were not healthy for "you". However, your entire family also had to develop patterns of adjusting to this very dysfunctional man too.

The good news is that you have been slowly able to articulate the pattern of dysfunction and what it meant to you emotionally. So, what you have been doing is identifying an injury that has lead to your troublesome thinking/emotional reactions that became an auto response in you that you were not totally consciously aware of.

Ok, you finally have a chart that explains your challenge much more accurately. In that list you have learned that it is known that you do not "imagine" things, but you have reactions to "real scenarios" instead. The reason you were so "grateful" and relieved is that you got to see it articulated in a way that is how you were "injured" and that yes, you are dealing with an injury instead of a mental illness where you are simply fabricating things that are "not real or fact".

If you have laid out the way you are challenged, you don't have to keep talking about it every week. You are now ready to learn "how" to develop better reactions and as splitimage has mentioned, that can come from DBT, or a therapy that helps you "learn" how to build skills to calm down with reminders instead of feeding into them. You don't want to learn how to feed into "injuries", instead you want to learn to recognize them and not have a big emotional reaction to them. It would be like seeing a math error and then knowing how to fix it so your work balances out right.

OE

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

All of you must be SO sick of me ... I am Broken record - I was writing the same things a year ago.

"Finally the thing I'll add that helped me the most, was just making up my mind to let it go." -SplitImage

How do you actually DO that? Believe me, I don't LIKE thinking about all of this stuff 24/7, it just "pops into my mind" against my will.

Yeah I don't entirely get it either....I mean one of the major issues with PTSD is it is a disorder that hampers your ability to 'let it go'. I have tried a few times to just 'let it go' but it didn't work because of how PTSD has effected my brain.

Also I don't willingly dwell in the past, or see PTSD symptoms as an 'excuse' not to move on in life....I see it as a very real thing that makes it very hard to move on with life and its nothing to do with not trying hard enough to get over it. Not to mention sometimes one can find themselves further traumatized if they delve into it too quick. But honestly if it was as simple as making up ones mind to let it go.....I think I'd be over it, and what is the point of all the therapy/treatment if all you gotta do is make up your mind to let it go?

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

The reason you were so "grateful" and relieved is that you got to see it articulated in a way that is how you were "injured" and that yes, you are dealing with an injury instead of a mental illness where you are simply fabricating things that are "not real or fact".

Alright look, I really don't want to derail this thread or start a conflict. But keep in mind there are people in this section who have mental illnesses since it is possible to have PTSD in combination with other things(though as far as current medical research PTSD is still considered a mental disorder) but the injury vs. illness has validity even if I cannot quite wrap my head around it or why its significant for it to be an injury vs. illness since either way it still effects mental health and functioning.

That said, having a mental illness is not 'simply' fabricating things that are 'not real or fact', so can you please stop with the inaccurate generalizations and information about mental illness?...kind of hurtful to people who struggle with mental illness to be told it comes down to 'simply fabricating things that are not real or fact' not only because it is inaccurate but just furthers the idea we're just crazy degenerates with no valid feelings, thoughts or opinions. Or is it only when a condition effecting the mind/brain is redefined as not being a mental illness that people with such a condition are to be treated with respect and have their struggles validated?

[Open Eyes]

Hellion, I was addressing "Mowtown" and not you in his thread. I understand you have more than just PTSD challenges.

That being said, the problem with PTSD is how hard it is to "just" let it go. My therapist has explained to me that it "is" intrusive because someone struggling "wants to" let it go and move forward, but struggles with unwanted reminders. I struggle that way myself.

The list I provided that helped Mowtown look at it differently talks about the difference between Paranoia and Hyper Vigillance, the difference between Mental Illness and a PTSD injury. Often people with PTSD use the word "paranoia" to describe their challenge, however, as the list of comparison states, there is a difference and it really "is" helpful to understand that difference IMHO.

In the information I provided, is discussed how PTSD is often misdiagnosed as "other" disorders or mental illnesses too. Well, that happened to me, and Mowtown and it happens to others too. That information came about through a tremendous amount of study and quite honestly, it has been extremely helpful and understanding those who struggle with PTSD and what kind of treatment can be "more helpful" instead of the person who is struggling being left in confusion thinking they have a laundry list of disorders that will impede their ever being able to "heal" or better manage their symptoms.

For myself, I wish I had this information from the beginning and had the right treatment as well instead of reaching out for help to only be further traumatized and confused and misunderstood.

I liked Splitimage's input because she discussed the therapies she had tried that were helpful as well a therapy that has helped her learn to better manage her symptoms even more through learning how to calm down and practice that skill so she can actually gradually control the symptoms even more.

I am not "diagnosing you" Hellion, I am just addressing Mowtown who has been working with professionals that have diagnosed him with PTSD. If you have some other challenges along with that, which "can" happen, you may struggle in additional ways aside from PTSD.

OE

[Hellion]

I know you where addressing them, even so the comment about mental illness is offensive and it is a public forum so its not just the person you are addressing who is going to see that comment and potentially be hurt by it.

If I directed a comment to someone about PTSD being 'a case of refusing to get over it' I'd expect others with PTSD who the comment was not directed at would still be offended...of course that would be a very ignorant thing to say.

Also PTSD is still largely viewed as a mental disorder, the illness vs. injury thing seems like a newer alternate way of looking at it...but it seems it gets discussed like its the only way to veiw it, comes off a little pushy but maybe that part is just me being overwhelmed by seeing a lot of it the last couple days and not having a wonderful grasp on it.

[Open Eyes]

Hellion, I understand you, however, as I mentioned, I was referring to the information explaining the difference in the charts provided. It is not about saying one is worse than the other, it is understanding how to differentiate between. And what I did say is "instead of "a" mental illness" where he is fabricating, as there "are" mental illnesses where a person has symptoms that are "different" than PTSD symptoms.

There is a difference between going to a zoo and having and elephant break out of it's pen and chase you, then imagining an elephant is chasing you when that never happened to you.

OE

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Hellion, I understand you, however, as I mentioned, I was referring to the information explaining the difference in the charts provided. It is not about saying one is worse than the other, it is understanding how to differentiate between.

I was talking about the specific comment that mental illness is simply fabricating things that aren't real or factual...I know from experience we aren't fabricating things the anxiety, depression and various symptoms feel very real.

I cannot explain any better why that came off offensive than I already have attempted.

[Open Eyes]

Hellion, I did not say it that way though, but that is how you are taking it to mean. I said
"a" mental illness, I did not specify depression or anxiety that "yes" are real symptoms. I did not even say a mental illness that imagines depression or anxiety either.

There "is" depression with PTSD, however, it is different then chronic depression, that was also explained in that information I posted too.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Hellion, I did not say it that way though, but that is how you are taking it to mean. I said
"a" mental illness, I did not specify depression or anxiety that "yes" are real symptoms. I did not even say a mental illness that imagines depression or anxiety either.

There "is" depression with PTSD, however, it is different then chronic depression, that was also explained in that information I posted too.

Regardless of the mental illness an accurate description is not simply fabricating things that aren't real or factual...because to the individual experiencing it, it is very real.

You could perhaps say the mind fabricates things and convinces the person of it...but its not something the person with mental illness is doing to them-self, and its not very easy to gain much control over your mind going into more irrational thinking hence why mental illnesses are considered medical issues and not character flaw problems.

[MotownJohnny]

I think the entire debate is indicative of one of my key points - mental illness stigmatization is rampant. I admit feeling very relieved to hear PTSD, it seemed a "lesser" diagnosis.

Injury vs illness - a semantic debate which really does diddly squat in the real world. No one should have to feel ashamed or afraid because of a mental health situation. That is where the system has failed us as patients and consumers of their services.

[lizardlady]

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

I wonder if I'm doing the "wrong kind" of therapy. It's just "talk therapy" - no particular method or plan that I see - just going in there every week and talking about "how was your week" or "what happened" and "how do you feel about it" really isn't getting me anywhere. In some ways, it actually reinforces the negative, because it's yet another hour of my life to bring up some past unhappy event and bring that into the present.

Johnny, have you asked your therapist if s/he has any experience doing trauma therapy? It is a specialized field. Plain old "talk therapy" might not do the job.

For what it's worth, there's empirical evidence that CBT is effective. I'm not sure about DBT for PTSD. It was originally developed to treat borderline personality disorder. I know some folks swear by EMDR, but the research into it's effectiveness was flawed.

I'm going to second something Splitimage said. Intrusive thoughts theat "pop into" your head are part of PTSD. CBT treatment can help you learn how to deal with those thoughts.

[Open Eyes]

Mowtown, people give us "what they know".

[Werewoman]

Earlier today I asked my psychiatrist if it was possible for PTSD to be cured. His response was no, but it is possible for it to become a 'scar' as opposed to a gaping, festered wound.

I am one of the folks who swear by EMDR (no offense lizardlady) but I also find it most effective when used with CBT and medications. Each of these three things contributes to my healing in different ways, and my wounds are getting closer and closer to becoming scars every day. I have bad days, and sometimes I have horrific days, but I truly believe the day will come when the bad days are so few and far between, I will no longer feel as though I am mentally ill or handicapped, just slightly damaged. I think that's the best any of us can hope for.

I've been asked many times why I don't just get over it, and my response is a silent prayer, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

[Numbed]

The other month, I read something about combat vets, using nudism to treat PTSD.

I haven't read much into it, wouldn't of thought there would be much on it.
I don't know if would actually work or whether legit.
I don't know would work for C-PTSD

What I DO know though is about facing things, i've done it my whole life as to avoid becoming afraid, or being seen as weak so as to not be try to control or able to be.

As you know I have always gone against what people say, believe and thought my own stuff figuring it out, and now I see the World differently. Make up and fashion I see (or at least belief) how much of a problem they actually are and cause. I know about parenting and that they teach you to not be yourself and be nice, even if lie, I knew about personal growth and did, before I realised all of this stuff, I fixed my mind, my beliefs, like how I feel towards people, I learnt to understand, once you understand, you can accept, I haven' thated my mother in years, and it's how I can still see her, even though She still brings me down with her own stuff, but I don't let it become me.

Knowing and experiencing what I have, and how I see the World for what it really is, and how, because all I used was logic, reason, analysis etc, and emotions so supressed, I am that rare type of individual who could handle making decisions that would affect millions of lives, not many at all can handle that pressure.

Realising i've lived with anxiety whole life only past year say, speaking to Psychiatrist, having to fight against her, with her BS, finally got to point where she said, drugs aren't the treatment for anxiety, (won' tgo into the fact that it is actually her no me who has a problem with medication), she said, going out there and doing it is the treatment.

Ofc knowing this already, and biting my tongue, and then having to repeat myself 3 times, yes but I need help to get me to that place to be able to, exposure therapy,

YES I KNOW WHAT IT IS YOU STUPID *****, I'VE BEEN DOING IT MY WHOLE LIFE... I said to myself.

I know it works, and reading about the nudism and c-ptsd and the many components, I can speak my mind and not be afraid, because I have my integrity.

Wearing different clothes changes how you feel, most people know this, what most people don't realise is it's still a form of covering yourself up, hiding, trying to blend in etc

Our bodies are what most personal to us.

and when I read about that vet with PTSD and nudism, it actually made perfect sense.



Worth an entertaining thought any way Johnny, doing things which don't seem to actually work or take forever, it's time we start trying things which are different from what we've tried, and even if it doesn't work, you start being comfortable with exploring new exciting things and working through problems becomes a lot less, well everything negative experienced with dealing with them especially over a long period.

You want your life to not be about doctors and psychiatrist and problems, well they don't have to be, that's just what the World wants you to be, to never be strong to never be yourself and do it your way, because everyone else is afraid of the same thing.

I don' t know your entire story Johnny, but I know what it's like when people fail you.

[lizardlady]

No offense taken werewoman. I have friends who swear by EMDR. All I was saying is that the empirical evidence isn't there to support that it's effective. If it works for some folks that's great.

[Werewoman]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

No offense taken werewoman. I have friends who swear by EMDR. All I was saying is that the empirical evidence isn't there to support that it's effective. If it works for some folks that's great.

Agreed.