Aversion to pharmaceuticals?

I said "directly fixing the brain". Everything talks to the brain so it stands to reason what food you take in will at some point affect the brain but I don't claim to know how. I believe any nutritional scientist would not make the same sort of claims or dumb downs the psychiatric community does. They say the science is about 100 years old and they don't know much at all. That said the people who have done well have changed their diet and exercise in significant ways. Emphasis on significant. Not your standard add fish oil and eat more veggies but dumping the SAD diet and concentrating on whole foods and cleaning the gut. And not just riding a stationary bike but getting outside passionately or yoga and a variety. That kind of exercise does act in Neuroplastic ways.

I am very aware of plasticity and how powerful it is. I used to teach a form of mindfulness. I also know that neurodiversity is important to understanding your MI. Understanding that would help you design mind exercise specific to you. Very powerful

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I first began meditation when I was seventeen years old. That was in 1978. I've been meditating since. TM, zazen, vipassana, etc. I spent 6 years in my 20's avidly studying Buddhism in a Zen monastery. I bought and read Jon Kabat Zinn's book on mindfulness literally the first week it was available in book stores. My wonderful therapist back in the early '90's was one of the first of a small group of people who trained with Francine Smith in San Francisco to do EMDR with their patients. CBT...I learned and began practicing it in 1990. I've attended workshops taught by Stan Grof in Larkspur, California. That was back when he published "Spiritual Emergency". So, you get my point.

Now. If I am meditating and hear voices in my head saying frightening things, I become unable to meditate because the experience is terrifying. When inanimate objects begin to "look alive" to me I'm in trouble. All the mindfulness practice, exercise, and healthy eating in the world will not take away the terror, anxiety, fear, and worry that I'm am physically and emotionally experiencing. And so on. If, however, I am on the proper meds my mind is calmer and more clear and I AM able to use the tools I have learned and practiced for several decades. Without the medications I will have to check myself into the psych hospital because I will be severely depressed, anxious, agitated, hypomanic, and absolutely terrified of life, including objects, people, beings, etc.

For me, medication is a miracle.

This is it, exactly. If something other than medication is is going to seriously help a person with this history, I'd like to see it. I don't think this is the case the majority of the time. It is often medication that gives people the ability to return to their lives and gain control. To say that a patient is not trying hard enough because they are taking a pill is an insult. This is a type of case where diet, exercise, meditation etc., may surely help but alone is likely not nearly enough. This is very serious. Like marmaduke's example with diabetes, the same can be said for cholesterol. Medication doesn't cure it, but it does lower cholesterol. Without it it goes right back up. How can we make judgment calls like this about people who are suffering?

The statement that "someone who refuses isn't doing that badly" and " give meds a chance" is a blanket statement. As patients I think we of all people should be advocating personal choice whenever possible.

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That theory means everyone who eats in burger king and Macdonalds every night and never exercise must be complete mental cases. no 1 not everybody wants to eat like a veggy sparrow , and run 15 miles a night or sit in a room chanting and meditating like a ninja, We want food we like ,exercise when we want and meditate never, your way of treating mental illness would get me reaching for the shotgun. Plus I don't want to read internet crap books . I am already miserable why would I want to be brainwashed

I am not saying in any way that all of things don't work for many people. But again it is an oversimplification in relation to how this lifestyle can be a fit for all people. If you have the luxury and the time that is great. But most people don't - they have jobs, children, school, parents. Some have two jobs and other responsibilities. If I get on the treadmill 4 times a week I'm doing well. We try to eat as well as we can but its not nearly perfect. I love yoga and try to practice when I can, but its not possible to always be consistent.

If you are able to practice such a lifestyle and it works for you, great. But many people just don't have the time or resources, and some are just plain tired. Its not as easy to implement into real life as it sounds. Maybe 50% of the time, but not 100%.

I meant I wrote "outside of directly "fixing the brain"". Not that food has a direct impact (good or bad) on the brain.

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Actually "everyone who eats in burger king and Macdonalds every night and never exercise" are affected emotionally. Fat satiates but when over done acts like a depressant drug. Again, I am not trying to explain it. Just saying if you do A, B happens.

You actually haven't read any of the diets or books I have referred to so I can't really address your criticism. Plus it's a rude comment. But as I said to sister rags we should be advocating patient choice. I merely said the people I have met who are successful without meds use good diets and exercise as part of their solution . Take it or leave it.

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I didn't say you should go out and do it. The point originally had more to do with >how< we think about the effectiveness of one treatment over another. You said there is good evidence for meds fixing stuff (being overly general) and I am using nutrition as an example of something that we don't try to readily explain like drs and marketing people do with meds. If you do A, B happens. I think that applies to meds that we only know for sure treats symptoms too. My comment had nothing to do with what you should or shouldn't do.

Honestly this should be a really good reason to put more money into studying. A treatment that helps your whole body, does not require an rx and doesn't have horrible side effects? Then maybe you would find it accessible. And it isn't easy for me either, btw.

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I think most of the population is just stupid. If you take caffeine for example, so many people drink coffee every hour of the day. Why? Because they have built a tolerance so they take it not to feel more alert than normal, but to feel normal.

And that stupid mentality is why people get addicted to benzos. Because they are dependent on them.

I'm speaking for a lot of others other than myself. there are so many patients that have little time for even therapy or don't have the money to pay for it. So getting better on a holistic level might be pretty overwhelming and not an option for a lot of people.

I think its important to take into consideration is that if these alternatives work, then your mental health may not be THAT bad. Not that it doesn't exist, but not at a dire level. Think for a minute about what is involved in holistic treatment: discipline, motivation, clear/ organized thinking to some extent. When you suffer from a very serious MI, these are the qualities that are missing. Just getting showered and dressed is an accomplishment for a lot of people. So for moderate or mild depression where the functioning is fairly high, holistic and natural approaches are probably very effective. But for the most seriously effected patients, at least initially, this will not cut it. As an add on and for maintenance it could be something to look into. But for the psychotic, it doesn't make sense to me. Not as a first line of treatment.

ADHD is a neurologically based disorder and is also hereditary, as are autism spectrum disorders. I know you didn't mention autism, but they are in the same category. Diet and nutrition does help with the behavioral for both, but it is not a cure for either. They are pervasive and continue across the life span.

Not every one who takes benzos get addicted. And everyone drinks, eats, does or takes something to feel better sometimes, unless they are saints. People get addicted to working out too.

Thank you Michane. I love the way you get your point across. Very clear and easy to understand at the same time

Marmaduke, you sure your mother is not my mother? My mother will swear to the last breath that she was a good caring mother. If being overprotective and oppressive means good and caring, I'd like to check her dictionary.

UOTE=marmaduke;3639356]live2ski66
Do you believe in the theory of chemical imbalance with neurotransmitters?

I do. I (guess) it works like this, if you watch a normal loving mother she will be bonded with her baby, she will make eye contact, give cuddles, loving touch. This gives the baby a feeling of security, comfort, pleasure 'happy', chemicals are released serotonin/oxytocin/dopamine/endorphins. Well worn pathways are established in the brain.

Take a cold mother, a refrigerator mother, a self absorbed narcissist unable to feel genuine love or empathy (like my mother)
I do not remember any cuddles, hugs, kisses or kind words. I remember feeling lonely, frightened, sad. What then?
'Sad' chemicals are released like cortisol, well worn pathways are made, but this time they are for sad chemicals.

Unsurprisingly neglected & abused children have a high chance of suffering depression and anxiety.

Anti depressants replace the lack of happy chemicals. They are not a cure, but then injections of insulin do not cure diabetes they just provide whats missing.
For me depression was environmental, and meds do help.
I know they do not help everyone, a minority seem to be resistant.[/QUOTE]

Lauliza, well said. That is what I try to tell people who question why I crashed so hard. I view it as a bunch of spinning plates on a scaffold type arrangement. If one of the plates loses balance it starts a chain reaction. It took a combination of efforts to keep each plate spinning. As each plate falls, the burden on your system increases. When meditation and journaling I might have kept one plate up, it may require a pharmaceutical to quiet the brain when two plates fall, so now I have a pill, meditation, and journaling. At some point, at least with me, I run out of coping methods and meds and revert to day one. In my case that becomes "you hurt me, on purpose in my mind, I'm not letting you get away with hurting me. If I go down, you are going down with me." Not the healthiest way to live, but that pattern was the first I learned and it is ingrained in my brain. With therapy, meds and alternative therapies I learned to control that reaction and choose a healthier option.


QUOTE=Lauliza;3639634]I'm speaking for a lot of others other than myself. there are so many patients that have little time for even therapy or don't have the money to pay for it. So getting better on a holistic level might be pretty overwhelming and not an option for a lot of people.

I think its important to take into consideration is that if these alternatives work, then your mental health may not be THAT bad. Not that it doesn't exist, but not at a dire level. Think for a minute about what is involved in holistic treatment: discipline, motivation, clear/ organized thinking to some extent. When you suffer from a very serious MI, these are the qualities that are missing. Just getting showered and dressed is an accomplishment for a lot of people. So for moderate or mild depression where the functioning is fairly high, holistic and natural approaches are probably very effective. But for the most seriously effected patients, at least initially, this will not cut it. As an add on and for maintenance it could be something to look into. But for the psychotic, it doesn't make sense to me. Not as a first line of treatment.

ADHD is a neurologically based disorder and is also hereditary, as are autism spectrum disorders. I know you didn't mention autism, but they are in the same category. Diet and nutrition does help with the behavioral for both, but it is not a cure for either. They are pervasive and continue across the life span.[/QUOTE]

Honestly I am not going to get into a big debate over this. I do not believe you absorbed much of what I wrote or I am a bad writer. I have used some variation of the phrases "patient choice when possible", "it isn't easy", "I am not telling anybody what they should do", "meds are the best choice for some people or people in certain situations" so many times and I am really tired of it. You want recovery stories? See the link below. Also read the about page for the director's story. They have developed a whole recovery model too. And by the way? They don't completely dismiss meds in all situations either. Better yet go visit. They are in Lawrence and if the Murphy bill does end up passing it will be gone.

http://www.power2u.org/recovery-stories.html

I do respect people who make the choice to take meds for the rest of their life. Please respect my frustration over being told time and time again I am wrong for seeking alternatives to taking meds for the rest of my life.

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When thoughts, moods, feelings and emotions are something someone can live with, function with, hold a job, have good relationships, I'd say those people would be good candidates for solely alternative treatments. If, however, the symptoms interfere with one's day-to-day functioning...ask the people around that person...chances are they'll tell you that person is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to live with - let alone work with or even spend time with. That is the person who, in my experience, needs psychiatric medication.

I'm sorry but there are people that would disagree with you. It is a very narrow and judgement filled view.

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Michanne, I completely respect the choices you've made regarding your own treatment. If you are doing well then that is great, I wouldn't argue against anything you've chosen. I am in no position to disagree with what you do, especially if it works. I dont think Ive seen posts criticizing your choices.

What I have seen are objections to posts that come across as judgmental against those who feel alternative treatments wouldn't be enough to trear severe mental illness. I think people have a lot of reasons for taking meds, many of them very valid reasons. Most do not want a quick fix, the side effects just aren't worth it. There are just some cases where you have to treat the symptoms or that person isn't going to make it in society. We can argue the point of what the definition of normal is forever, but the basics are activities of daily living. If a patient isn't accomplishing those, then there is a problem and they need help. But you cant force it, a patient or caretaker needs to weigh the risk with the benefit and go from there.

But really, who is anyone else to say that one treatment is superior to another? This issue is way too complex to reduce certain treatments to simply being good or bad. There is loads of research out there,.you could find an article written about most anything. More often than not, many successes are from a combo of multiple treatment approaches. There is no one size fits all treatment, that's all I'm trying to say.

Well stated, Lauliza.

You are absolutely right... You can not force somebody to read if they don't want to.

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Exactly.

But you are on meds and I was not rude . You don't practice what you preach its all quotes from a book , you still posting on hear so what ever your doing is not working so why would anyone listen .Most posting are out at work something they could not do without there meds , when levelled out and feeling cool the can intergrate with people and join the human race again, then do meditating squash, running ect ect plus have a nice steak now an then, Michanne you don't even go out .

MENTAL HEALTH IS NOT A PISSING CONTEST.

Look, somebody spoke of aninamte objects looking real. I deal with talking to things, with death hallucinations, with intrusive thoughts, with flashvisions... I wanna die at times, or I feel I need to run far from here. My mind never shuts up and sometimes is very bizzare.

Yet, I chose not to take pharmaceuticals. I believe some people who take em have much lesser symptoms. If it works for them, than great. If not, yet they are being convinced that they need them because they are "ill", it's a problem.

It's not about less of mess = doesn't take meds, more of a mess = absolutely needs meds for LIFE! It's not so simple.

And as for symptoms intefering with your life... one can also learn distress tolerance. Sure it doesn't happen overnight, but it can be done. And it's absolutelly needed. Meds sometimes "stop working" or life stress gets too much. You cannot be at mercy of chemical cushioning to keep you from the worst. One has to do much more.

Getting holistic not realistic? I mean, wouldn't person that bad do anything? Meds will not take you as far as getting holistic will. In worst case you will have lot of pills to OD on laying around and nothing to stop you from taking them when things get bad.

As for cure for ADHD, meds don't cure it either.

You're right Venus, MH is not a pissing contest, nor is ot a contest of who is "stronger" and will lead a better life becaue because they chose a different treatment path. I'm sorry about my quote regarding "dire" situations, since it did suggest that and was an overgeneralization.

My point is always in relation to daily functioning and quality of life and I know this is different for everyone. I think most treating doctors would feel that if your quality of life is poor, and especially if other key people people are directly impacted (I tend to think of only children here) then med treatment is something to give serious thought to.

You say you suffer from hallucinations and intrusive thoughts, which must be difficult for you. But if you have found a way to handle this and your life is filled with more positives than negatives, then you've made the choice that work best for you.

There are strong reactions in this thread because those who've chosen med treatment may feel invalidated by some of the posts on alternative treatments. Even with the disclaimers that they are not judging anyone, that's not how some posts read. Some give an impression that medicated patients dont know what's best for them or that they are victims af pharma co.'s. To someone who's been working hard to get their life together and need medication to help, that is a dismissive stance to take.

Regarding ADD, there is no cure. But medication helps many people live to their potential. Its not for everyone. I know behavioral techniques are very effective for a lot of people. But for others they need the meds to enable them to make changes. Its different for everyone.