Aversion to pharmaceuticals?

I have chosen to take meds for the last twenty years. I also journal alot, meditate alot, get alot of exercise, diet not so much, when I am feeling good. I have also been to 1000's of AA meetings, Alanon Meetings, Therapy, Group Therapy, self help books, St. Johns Wort, Fish Oil, Vitamin D, L Methyl Folate, and on and on.

None of these things has ever stopped me from going into cyclical deep depressions. They have gotten much worse and lasted much longer as I have gotten older.

When in mild depression which is just about 90% of my life (it is my normal) I do these things automatically. I want to do them.

When in moderate depression I force myself to do these things and it helps and sometimes keeps me from going into a deep one.

When in a deep depression the only thing I do is take my meds and keep a mood log. I can't get out of bed and sleep all the time. I have 0 energy, and 0 motivation and all the other symptoms. I am not capable of doing those other things.

What am I to do? The deep depression have always come three times a year and lasted about three weeks. I was able to work and barely manage my life. Now the last one lasted six months. And the current one, which is much more moderate than the last one, I have been in since Oct. I spent many years working through all my childhood issues and situational issues. I believe at this point it is purely biological and genetic. Situational triggers and stress sometimes play a role but often times not. What am I to do?

I certainly would be open to "alternative treatments" so that I could get off my meds.
I would like to learn more about these alternative treatments, so do you have any recommendations or advice on how to go about finding information on these treatments ?

The problem is... meds don't always make life better. And more meds doesn't make it more better, but yet doctors just keep throwing more and more meds on many people, seing side effects as symptoms.

I would not tell a person for whom meds work well to drop them. But if it's clearly not working for them and only reason they keep taking them is cause doctor said they need them.... then trying other way might be also something to think about.


well, the pro-med posts and reactions sound judgemental too. We are either delusional or "not that bad". We are kindling our way to suicide that is bound to happen.

If you made an informed decision, than you are not victim of Pharma. However, there are people who are taking drugs without knowing what they are (for example, quite a few people think that Seroquel is a sleep aid and don't know it's actually an AP). There are many people speak about how "doctor told me I have chemical imbalance and i will need to be on meds for life" and they just don't question it cause doctor said it. Worst, some people are complaint with their prescription and doom-and-gloom predictions of not having worthy life.

Yeah, one should do all they can. And drop what doesn't work for them.....

MENTAL HEALTH IS NOT A PISSING CONTEST.

Look, somebody spoke of aninamte objects looking real. I deal with talking to things, with death hallucinations, with intrusive thoughts, with flashvisions... I wanna die at times, or I feel I need to run far from here. My mind never shuts up and sometimes is very bizzare.

Venus this is the start of your post, anyone that reads this would think you are in bad need of medication, talking to death , hallucinations ,that will be the herbs you keep sticking down your throat, flash visions, and you want to die at times. in England you would be sectioned you are very unwell .

Yes I agree that if meds make you feel worse then you need to talk to your pdoc. Some posts seem to suggest that nutrition and other alternatives are a cure for issues. Clearly they are not if you still have symptoms. After you explained further that is clearly not the case with you. You still have symptoms but feel the meds don't help or make you feel worse. That clarifies things quite a bit. You sound pretty self aware, so if it is a better alternative for you and how you want to live your life, there is no harm.

Serequel is often used off label as a sleep aid even though its an atypical AP and is quite helpful. Same for trazedone, which is an AD but nowadays is prescribed mainly as a sleep aid (I use it sometimes). A lot of ADs are used off lable for different symptoms, and are often the most effective for those off lable uses (SSRIs, especially Prozac, are used off label to help those on the autism spectrum and can be very helpful). Doctors should explain but they often dont, probably so they don't scare patients away from using them. But it is easy enough to google a med and find out all you need to know even if your pdoc doesn't help. Its true that certain generations of people dont ask many questions, but that is a choice - the information is out there and not at all hard to find.

Good thing I am not in England, right?

I am not hurting anybody, I my taxes and bills (mostly) on time. Some would think I am in need of meds, others realize it's not black and white issue and it comes down to life quality and how much it bothers me. And honestly, some of it is scary..... but some I don't mind. And hypersensitivity towards the world around me... feel great at times. I am a strange person, but I can live it it... and most of the times, live well.

It's about how you chose cope. Would I be happier on meds? More at peace? Or would it just bring additional issues?

Right now something I am not willing to gamble on. I worked too hard for my balance and acceptance of self... maybe I would hate my normal self. Who knows...

Once again you interpret what I write through your filtered lenses. It has NEVER been presented as a one size fits all approach not a cure for everybody. But holistic approaches HAVE been successful for some people. Some of them consider themselves recovered. HAS worked for people that are THAT bad. Factual statement.

Now that paragraph... Says NOTHING negative or positive about the use or effectiveness of meds. Why is it necessary to validate meds in every single conversation?


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Observation: Every time this subject comes up I notice anybody taking an approach outside of the status quo approach has to justify it to no end.

http://www.thejoshuawalters.com/

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The problem I have is not being made to feel great by pharmacuticals, if I found one that made me feel better or helped I wouldn't be opposed to taking it. But many I've tried just make me feel worse and I don't want to take drugs that make me feel worse or that don't do much of anything.

Actually it is working. I have upped my intake of certain foods but a lot. I avoid naming them because you'll just be rude about that too. It was not easy while depressed at all (and have never claimed it was) l but incremental steps helped. Every step makes the next one easier. I am only at the beginning of the corner.

I have finished two pieces I have have in progress for a long time (they went on hold several months ago). I have also taken time to work on experimental pieces. This is a true indication I am getting better because experimentation requires thought and creativity. I know now from past experience and recent reflection that going into a creative sprint is part of my pattern.

Before I was failing technical interviews left and right. Having reduced the meds (and still working on it) I had two job offers in one day. The one I declined upped the offer three times before finally accepting my no. I started my new job this week. The job I chose is a complete shift for me. The job I declined is one I would have absolutely drooled for a couple years ago but like meds and SAD...not all that good for me. I won't bother trying to explain it to you but it shows I am looking long term, beyond my current career and aligning my actions with what really matters most to me. Before I would follow mainstream values. I would also be chronically late and increasingly slow and with a worsening attitude. That has changed. I just have to remind myself of that from time to time.

Had I taken your advice I would be stuck in a far darker place.



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The most common-
Eating a healthy diet
Getting alot of exercise
Journaling
Meditation
Mindfulness
Socializing
Therapy (there are many types)
Group Therapy
Support from family and friends
Supplements( fish oil, vitamin D, L-Trytophan, 5-HTP, L-Methyl Folate)
ECT
TMS

I am sure Michanne has more and am surprised he didn't reply since you show an interest. He is to busy arguing though. j/k

I haven't given you advice, you just come on the med board and rubbish everyone that takes them. I don't go on the alterative board mouthing off crap, and post stupid internet ramblings of alternative screwballs you happen to come across in the mad has a frog section

This thread is very interesting, a worthwhile and thoughtful debate on the various possible ways to treat mental health disorders.

As for alternative (or supplemental) treatments I'll add B vitamins and folic acid (iron) to the list above.

I still stand by my assertion that as far as those who opt out of meds I have generally found there are two groups. One is the type who has mild to moderate symptoms. For those people, the side effects are not worth remaining on meds. For example, they have "blue days" and "normal days", and are able to function quite well in general.

The other type is the people who are in denial about their disorder/s and don't realize that their lives are (possibly severely) affected by their aversion to medication. I've seen some of the people in this group self-medicate with street drugs /alcohol, others keep insisting that they, for example, have a physical problem (such as suspected cardiac issues) and that pysch meds are not what will help them. The truth is, these people would so benefit from at least a term of meds.

Emotional freedom technique is another promising technique and can be easily learned (but you have to be able to word your feelings... biggest hurdle for me in this technique).

Bach essencies are very useful, because you can customize your needed "remedy". They are homeopathic-like essences that target particular negative energies.

Moodfoods. 11 foods to boost your mood - NetDoctor.co.uk - The UK's leading independent health website that's just the basics.

Searching your spirituality. Or existentialism if you insist on being atheist

aren't you bit judgemental?

Seriously you think you can lump people and their motives into two groups?

I think you would greatly benefit reading through Icarus Project publications and forums. It's pretty insightful. Note that some people of Icarus still take these psychdrugs.. and still criticize them at the same time.

Personally I have tried about 20 meds (maybe more) to help with anxiety/MDD/insomnia, but I have found that the side effects have only made me feel much worse...and I have no such thing as just "good or bad days." All of them are terrible! The meds I have tried have caused hallucinations, heart palpitations, nightmares, debilitating upset stomach, etc. My psychiatrist is trying me on a few of the last things he can think of, but after that he doesn't believe that meds can be helpful to me (at least, any of them that are on the market as of now).
For those people (such as yourself) that meds do help I truly do believe they can be a godsend, but I don't think it's as simple as the two groups of people you mention.

Zinco...She. There is so much put down for anything holistic that I refrained but I did see this. Just about anything I say here will be met with criticism.

Zinco gave you a pretty good list. Here are some resources that have worked well for me. They aren't "how to" as much as educational... Allowing you to make up your own mind. My advice would be to mix knowledge, common sense with your own likes and tolerances.

The things that appear the most promising nutritionally are strategies that target cleaning and maintaining your intestinal system. There is a thought process that problems in the gut are common to the MI even before they are diagnosed. This is certainly true for me. Beyondmeds.com has several articles on this.

Lifespa.com has a cleanse that really worked for me. It is Ayurvedic mixed with western nutrition. (Not a starvation.) It is hard and expensive if you do the whole two week deal but you can still follow the seasonal nutritional guides he has posted. Btw, he actually doesn't like the whole probiotic as supplement movement.

I recommend this more general book:
http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Health...Haas+nutrition
It is a great resource if you want to understand how nutrients work and have something to refer to. The only thing I would stay away from is the lemonade cleanse. People who are healthy might do well on this but I think it is not good for for people with mood disorders. I think it is too stressful. I tried it once for a couple days and didn't do well. That was before I discovered lifespa.

Westonprice.org is another good resource. I also like nourishingtraditions.com. Search the site for bipolar. Her husband is a success story. She also has meal plans with shopping lists you can subscribe to. Unfortunately they are geared to families and not very scalable so not so good for me. A lot of her recipes are way too time consuming for me too. I look at the core advice. Of course you might have time. I'm just saying I don't ignore the entire site as worthless based on that criteria. (Yep, deliberate passive aggressiveness)

Brenė Brown certified programs and therapists. I went through a weekend intensive and it was profoundly helpful. This is not your typical self help guru. The programs and considered psycho educational which means they are only trying to educate not change your thinking or routine. You can find a ton of her talks online and books but if you are serious I would recommend the workshop which is either a class or an intensive.

Mindfulness actually encompasses meditation. There are as many ways to practice sat there are people. I would recommend reading about this and trying different methods until you find the one or (most likely) several that work for you. Zentangle has been extremely successful for people who can't normally concentrate all that well. I don't like meditation that much but even I have found buddify to be helpful. It is a mediation aid for iphone but you can also download the mp3s on their website. I got it for free or I would not have tried it and surprised myself.

I am reading this right now. I recommend it because I feel that identifying your gifts is key to designing a solution. I have been able to identify trends in my depression that make handing the depression much easier. I think that it would be helpful for somebody deciding which meds to take. I believe that if I were to dull my emotions to flat I would loose the energy I get afterwards. That is just me. It is not a self help book. The first part defines neurodiversity.
http://www.amazon.com/Neurodiversity...omas+armstrong

If you want an introduction the first link is an excerpt froma different book he wrote. The second brings in some additional observations:

http://www.aletmanski.com/al-etmansk...est-brain.html

OMG! They changed the name of the magazine and deleted the article! I looked it up within the last month. My life is over! Why didn't I clip it to Evernote? Well the article above has part of it. Going to write to the publisher.

If you are ready to really exit meds I recommend dr Breggin. Warning: he is radical and people here would say pseudo science without ever reading his books. But he is a dr with decades of research and practicing experience. He has testified many times in court and been a key part of winning cases against big pharma. As with anything I take the advice that is logical to me. I'm sure I will refer back to his withdrawal book over the years.

And of course exercise. That it helps heal is considered a fact unlike med treatment (and a lot of nutritional advice for that matter.) I am referring to healing in a general sense which can only help in the MI sense. Just stay open to what is enjoyable to you and don't beat yourself up if you can't do it for a while. Exercise is completely forgiving. Even a walk will help. I love taking pictures so if I am struggling (or not) I take my iphone for a walk or take a detour when I am on my way somewhere. That way I am at least walking without really thinking about it as a chore . When I am really down I can't even do that so just doing something like knitting is enough because at least it is mindful.

These two books are targeting creativity and artists. The second is specific to mood disorders.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Creative-H...ds=twyla+tharp
http://www.amazon.com/Standing-Water...water%27s+edge




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I'll give you credit for consistency: rude.

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Thank you. And will hall, who wrote many of those publications, has published a lot of stuff since then. He is really starting to be an influence.

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My post about groups of people who have mental health challenges might not be PC, but it is also not intended to be judgmental. I'm not claiming to be "right", I am I am simply sharing what I have experienced in my life.

Michanne, it seems to me that you are awfully hyper-sensitive to perceived criticism. Just my observance.

Itš not about being PC. It's about seeing the broader picture and not simplifying what shouldn't be simplified.

If somebody said "there's two groups of people who take meds, those who are lazy to do anything beyond taking pill and those that are stupid to handle their lives......", it would raise a hell.

For purposes of good discussion that brings something good, we be open minded in how we see others and their motives.

I'd also add sprouted foods and fermented foods. You used to have to grow your own but around here anyway, you can now buy sprouted breads and cereals among other foods that make it easier. Caveat is there is not a lot of research yet on the prepared stuff. I will definitely be watching though.

Quote:
"Foods to avoid
Caffeine: avoid drinks that contain caffeine. They may make you feel better at first, but they cause dehydration and can leave you feeling irritable, jumpy and prone to withdrawal headaches.

Sugar: the secret is to avoid sugary foods that give an instant pick-me-up. This will be followed by a sudden slump and your energy levels will crash, along with your mood, and you’ll find yourself reaching for the biscuit tin again.

Alcohol: although alcohol can briefly produce a pleasant and relaxed state of the mind, it will make you feel worse the next day, such as irritability, low mood and anxiety."

I reduced all three within the last three months. I'm addicted to sugar and I won't abandon my regular coffee but I switched to a latte with milk. Espresso is less coffee and caffeine (unless you do a double which I don't). When I froth the milk it has a natural sweetness that makes sugar unnecessary. Lately I started almond milk but I need something sweet in it.

I would have added caffeinated soda to the list. I don't know about Europe but Americans now get more caffeine and sugar from soda than coffee.

I actually learned to kill the alcohol when I get depressed a while ago. I do have wine from time to time but not even that when I am super down.

Here is the latest conclusion about vitamin supplements. The whole movement smacks of the chemical imbalance myth.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...earch/4042037/

Foods are much more complex than supplements. It is quite possible that there are additional substances in food that help absorption or add to their effectiveness. So take them if there is no alternative for you (such as getting the energy to make a meal... Been there) but know that they probably work like a placebo.

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It isn't perceived. This is directly insulting and critical. AND WRONG.

"I haven't given you advice, you just come on the med board and rubbish everyone that takes them. I don't go on the alterative board mouthing off crap, and post stupid internet ramblings of alternative screwballs you happen to come across in the mad has a frog section "

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While I will acknowledge that my posts are on the pro medication side, I think I've been pretty clear in also acknowledging that there are people who've had success with holistic approaches alone. Maybe there are sentences woven throughout that could have been worded better, but is that not the same for you or anyone else?

You seem to perceive differing opinions as criticism when thats not the case. I'm not saying anything bad about holistic approaches at all and in fact use many of them myself. I am defending those that choose meds because it isn't anyone else s place to make judgments on why or for how long they take them. I get more opinionated when perhaps non functioning parents of children are refusing to take meds when they should. The same can be said for OVER medicated parents too. So again, theres nothing black and white here. Its just a debate, which is what I thought the op intended with this question?

GOOD, now go and have a lie down you must be worn out, you haven't stopped ranting all day ,nobody is listening.