T tonight: Expressing anger, asking T questions, and an unexpected kiss!

I'm not judging Dreamseeker. I'm warning her that her T engaged in a behavior that most T's consider unethical (look it up--non-erotic kissing). What's ethical or not is subjective in the sense that it comes from individual opinion and not everyone agrees on what is or isn't ethical. Some T's think having sex with a patient can be beneficial sometimes. I know I thought it would be at various points with my female T, but it wouldn't have been. Behavior can be unethical in an objective sense in which it is prohibited in some formal code of conduct rules T's are subject to, e.g. having sex with patients. Every code declares it as inappropriate.

Some (very few, but some) T's won't shake hands with patients b/c they think it's unethical. Some T's--a fair proportion--won't hug clients seeing it as unethical. I had one like that. Some T's refuse to give clients a free session or a discount b/c they think it's unethical. Many, many things are viewed as unethical that seem very simple, non-controversial to most of us.

Non-erotic kissing is very uncommon, though seen as ethical by those who do it, but it is more common among one type of T: The kind who end up engaging in a sexual relationship with patients. There are common behavioral patterns amongst those kinds of T's, and those behaviors almost always start off seemingly innocently. Neither T nor patient might be aware of something being amiss and most often patients like it as first. The special attention issue is what's common to this phenomenon. Some T's think holding sessions that run overtime is unethical; it's a common early behavior for relationships that end up going wrong.

What these have in common almost always is clients like it at first--often very pleased with it and excited. The presence of those feelings doesn't indicate that it's necessarily good. Very few T's outright assault patients to start off.

BlueMoon "I wonder, Sunflower, how much information you really have about Dream's relationship with her therapist, just how many posts of Dream's you have actually read over the last 6 months to understand precisely why and what her therapist is showing her, teaching her and giving to her. I think when we read other people's stories and struggles it is up to us to keep our own ethics in check and suspend judgement knowing full well that we could not possibly have all of the information needed to reach such conclusions."

Dreamseeker9: "Again, I appreciate the concern, but what exactly is it a red flag for? Do you think my T is going to seduce me? Hardly! ....Being surprised in the moment is far different than being confused - it can lead to confusion, but it didn't for me. And even though I am vulnerable in therapy, that doesn't mean that I won't stand up for myself if T does something I consider inappropriate. I see no reason to address this one kiss - I know what spirit it was given, and that's all that matters to me."

Bluemoon and Dreamseeker, no Dreamseeker, you do not know what it's all about. You think you know. You might be right, you might be wrong. You don't know what's going on in your T's head (unconscious in particular) or entirely within your own--unconsciously it might mean more to you in ways you don't yet recognize. No one has "all the information" b/c of the unconscious motivations, thoughts, and feelings we have. Maybe the T does have bad intentions. Maybe she's trying to meet needs of her own by doing this, needs that she's not supposed have met by patients. But you can’t know for certain what’s going on in someone else’s head.

Bluemoon: "And above all, that in the end, it is our job to keep the focus on ourselves and our own struggles, without pointing out what we may believe someone else has not seen yet or inferences about protesting too much. How much do you really know about what Dream has seen yet? "

This happens with almost every response to every post. That's what we do here--comment on T's and poster’s behavior, thoughts, and feelings. If we just focused on ourselves, why even come here? We come here to share, which includes—with almost every post—feedback from others.

"Dream- I do hope you will take your responses with a grain of salt and understand that in a public forum like this people may respond out of reflex and ingnorance. Not knowing or understanding a relationship and then giving advice. Relationships, especially therapeutic ones, are more complex than that and I hope you understand that not everyone takes that truth into account when responding. They like to show you that they know better."

It's not ignorance to have great familiarity with codes of ethics and conduct and to have read widely about therapy ethics issues like I have. Not being familiar with those things and not recognizing that a kiss of any sort is a major red flag is ignorance. I'm not trying to show I know better, I'm trying to warn. I don't go as far as suggesting reporting the T because of this--though some people would do so, and I don't see anything wrong with that--but I do think the responsible thing to do for me is to point out how this could indicate major trouble ahead, which of course no one knows what would come of this. Maybe nothing harmful in any way, maybe it's a first step down the road to sexual exploitation of psychological harm for Dreamseeker. Time will tell.

Echoes: "Not every opinion needs to be said out loud. Let's not be kill-joys."

No, but I can't imagine any opinion that should be said out loud more than to point out what fits the patterns of exploitative, inappropriate, unethical behavior by T's, esp. in sexual terms.

How many times have members here offered support to posters who have been exploited in an intimate way, posters who are sufferign greatly? Some of them refuse to acknowledge the problems, say they like, yet most here try to explain to them it's wrong. I’d rather warn early than counsel later, given the choice.

Many members here are aware of possible ethical concerns with sorts of situations like the kiss, and I'm baffled they're not posting.

Dreamseeker, maybe nothing will go wrong with your therapy, but a kiss is very uncommon and commonly thought of as an ethical violation or at least a step down the road of a major one. That's all. We don't know, we just can offer opinions and warnings and I don't feel wrong in doing so.

This is an interesting thread. I see it posted as sharing information on the OP's session with T. The OP was not asking for advice, nor was she concerned about the kiss on her cheek from her T.

Let's please remember that when giving thoughts/advice/concern that it be done respectfully and supportively without judgement and keeping within the guidelines of PC.

Thank you everyone for understanding.

_sabby_

I think this is all a pity. Dreamseeker's post was about a lovely session she had - a special session. Now, I know there are different views about whether physical contact between clients/patients and therapists is ethical or not - what is OK and what is not etc. etc. and I can see that some people would like to point out that in their opinion it's a warning sign if a therapist kisses a client... fine...

but it's really a pity that what started as a thread about a very special exchange between Dreamseeker and her T has been spoiled by the distraction of whether the kiss was acceptable or not. Maybe such a discussion can go elsewhere and in general terms so that Dreamseeker doesn't feel that her relationship with her T is at the centre of it. My feeling is that this relationship is a very special one - I don't get the impression Dreamseeker is in danger. Maybe to some such an action on the part of the T is a step too far (I would find it that way if my male therapist would do that - but if I had a female therapist, I doubt I would feel that way). I think the context is very important - it's New Year - also the special relationship that Dreamseeker has built up with her therapist over many sessions. If you read books by Yalom, for example, maybe you'd also come to the conclusion that he's a 'bad, unethical' therapist - maybe some people think he is (hugging patients, stroking his hand through the hair of a female patient, lying on a bed with a dying female patient, making unexpected home visits...) - however, many people look up to him as one of the very best therapists out there.

Two words - judgement and context - if the T is good, they will make a good judgement about what is and what is not appropriate within the conext, and if the relationship is good, then the client and therapist will be in a position to talk through how they feel about it, if any worries come up.

It's good people feel concern for Dreamseeker but why go and taint her lovely experience with her T and change the direction of the thread - isn't that not a pity?

Onzi

Impatient,
Yours is a most excellent post on the topic.
Thank you for a detailed explaination of the problem stated in a logical manner.

Unfortunately, I'm not baffeled about why people who are aware of the problem aren't posting. It's very plain to see why people would steer clear from this post if they think differently than the "group think" that's going on here.

Just look at the bashing that's gone on for calling attention to a *possible* problem for the OP; to expressions of concern for, and well wishes to the OP; and to what *many* believe to be a very real breach of ethics in a professional setting. Look at the twisting of words, and the misreading of posts that are patently clear to anyone who *wants* to read what's been written and hear what's being said.

And the OP lost out because of the defenses she, and others, put up. The walls.

Cooler heads *may* have led to a more rational discussion of this very serious matter A much more reasonable outcome could have prevailed as a result. Especially for her.
But, that requires the ability to hold back reactions, and objectively access what's being said in a rational manner.
And that was *not* done here at all.

That's the real pity here.
In *my* opinion.

Peace!

At this time, I wish for the team to discuss the actions in this thread. I am going to close the thread while we discuss and come to a decision as to whether or not the thread will remain closed or re-opened/edited or not.

Thank you for your interest in this thread.

sabby

The team has discussed this thread and decided to keep it closed.

A gentle reminder to our members -

Hijacking a member's thread is against guidelines. Once you have posted your thoughts and/or opinions on the OP's post, whether you all agree or not is ok. It is not ok to go back and re-iterate your thoughts at the cost of hijacking the thread or the cost of the OP's intent of their post.

If you wish to discuss a topic such as this in more detail, please feel free to start your own thread for that discussion.

With respect,
sabby