[sun_flower]

I've seen at least 6 therapists, and I can't say that any of them really helped me.
My last therapist made me feel uncomfortable to return to her after an email I received from her after I cancelled an appointment more than 24 hours prior.
I've never had a dr. or therapist ask why I was canceling.

I feel so broken, like I surely need help but I don't know where to find the help that I need. Am I sick or is life just too hard for me to cope with? I can't answer that myself.

[WePow]

Never stop fighting for yourself. That is the key.
It may not be that you have found the right connection with a T.
But nothing else in this life for you is more important - you have to take care of who you are.

[pachyderm]

For me, a really major problem is that "psychotherapy" is undefined. The word tells you nothing about what actually happens in therapy, does not distinguish what makes a successful therapy as opposed to an unsuccessful one. I think this is a fault of mental health professionals: they have not really determined what works and why -- and they do not admit this.

[ECHOES]

Oh gosh, yes it would be something some therapists would ask, because everything is important and because there are so many reasons a person might cancel that they need help with. Such as a fear or worry about the therapist, financial issues. Cancelling or not wanting to return also might indicate that the pace of therapy is too fast. Or too slow.

I don't think you heard it as a question, though, I think you heard some kind of criticism. It might be interesting to go back to that therapist and resume therapy after talking about the worry you had about T's interest in why you cancelled.

[pondbc]

It is only effective if you have a good therapist. I have had one brilliant one and two useless ones.
Have you investigated support groups like DBSA or NAMI? I have found my best therapy comes from listening to the stories of others and connecting with them.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by harrietgate

It is only effective if you have a good therapist. I have had one brilliant one and two useless ones.

What made one brilliant and the others useless?

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by sun_flower

I've seen at least 6 therapists, and I can't say that any of them really helped me.
My last therapist made me feel uncomfortable to return to her after an email I received from her after I cancelled an appointment more than 24 hours prior.

sun_flower, aside from this question from your therapist, did you like her otherwise? I remember an earlier thread from you where you were worried about her question to you. Did you ever see her again to sort things out? Maybe it was a misunderstanding and she didn't mean anything bad by it at all. If you liked her otherwise, could you give her another chance? I think I remember you had only seen her once? Maybe she didn't really get a chance to show you she could help you. Those early communications can be hard and prone to misunderstanding when you don't really know each other.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by sun_flower

Do you think that psychotherapy really helps?

I think it depends on the client, the therapist (and his/her skill level), and the problems the client is seeking help for. There is no one answer. I think therapists can be really helpful for learning better communication skills and ways of relating to people. I think they can help heal old wounds and help us learn to avoid getting new ones. I think just having someone listen to you, make you the center of their attention, and understand you can be healing. I also think there are some mental health challenges which it is hard for psychotherapy to help, or at least hard for psychotherapy alone to help. Do you get a sense that what you are seeking help for can be helped by psychotherapy? Have you heard of others with a similar problem being helped by therapy? If so, that is reason to hope.

For me, I too had to go through about six t's before i found one that really worked and i connected too. And actually my son's pediatrician recommended him.. I personally think you gotta have some sort of connection somehow in order for you to progress or even want to continue to try. Current t (ten years) and i have a connection; at least in my mind. He has said to me alot " I like you and I care about you" and all i could think was that is because you don't know me yet... and now years, later.. he is still my t AND sometimes i still have a hard time believing him when he says stuff like that last session he told me i was "worthwhile" i have been hanging on to that for months now!

[jexa]

To answer your question, yes. Yes I think therapy works. It is important that you find a therapist with experience treating your specific concerns. It is also important that you are as honest as you can be with your therapist. And, that you don't give up on therapy before it has a chance to work. However, some psychotherapy may not work at all. As pachyderm said, "psychotherapy" is undefined. Many people don't treat problems in a way that works. Some people are not really good at this job. Keep looking until you find someone who sits right with you. Then, work your butt off and see what happens.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

For me, a really major problem is that "psychotherapy" is undefined. The word tells you nothing about what actually happens in therapy, does not distinguish what makes a successful therapy as opposed to an unsuccessful one. I think this is a fault of mental health professionals: they have not really determined what works and why -- and they do not admit this.

It is true that many do not. But there is a large subset of somewhat "subversive" research psychologists who are seeking out "process variables" - what are the mechanisms of change in therapy? They admit we don't know why what works, works. And I plan to join them in seeking out these answers. I want to be a clinical research psychologist. I want to help find a way to measure the therapeutic process in a valid way. I want to improve the way therapy is done in the community. I want people to get help that WORKS. So, I want to know HOW it works! This is my dream.. I will do everything I can to achieve this. One of the reasons I love PC is that there is so much process data here. Knowing how others experience therapy.. this will give me great insight when I am attempting to quantify the therapeutic process. It is quite a daunting task.

Here's the thing: no one wants to fund research on process variables. It's not the fault of mental health professionals. This is the fault of funding agencies who just won't fund this research!

Originally Posted by sun_flower

I've seen at least 6 therapists, and I can't say that any of them really helped me.
My last therapist made me feel uncomfortable to return to her after an email I received from her after I cancelled an appointment more than 24 hours prior.
I've never had a dr. or therapist ask why I was canceling.

I feel so broken, like I surely need help but I don't know where to find the help that I need. Am I sick or is life just too hard for me to cope with? I can't answer that myself.

I would see an email inquiring as to why I cancelled as a note of concern from my t. I would be tickled pink if my t checked on me that way. I think you took it as a criticism, and it really didn't seem like that was at all what your t was doing.

No. i am beginning to think it does more harm than good.

[sun_flower]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Oh gosh, yes it would be something some therapists would ask, because everything is important and because there are so many reasons a person might cancel that they need help with. Such as a fear or worry about the therapist, financial issues. Cancelling or not wanting to return also might indicate that the pace of therapy is too fast. Or too slow.

I don't think you heard it as a question, though, I think you heard some kind of criticism. It might be interesting to go back to that therapist and resume therapy after talking about the worry you had about T's interest in why you cancelled.

That is a very good point. I did hear it as a type of criticism. But I did detect a bit of a tone with her.
I haven't given up on the idea of therapy, I just need to find a good T and stay with them.

Thanks for your comment.

[sun_flower]

Originally Posted by harrietgate

It is only effective if you have a good therapist. I have had one brilliant one and two useless ones.
Have you investigated support groups like DBSA or NAMI? I have found my best therapy comes from listening to the stories of others and connecting with them.

I will look into those support groups. Thank you.

[sun_flower]

Originally Posted by Solarwind

No. i am beginning to think it does more harm than good.

I am sorry. Maybe you need to find a different therapist?
Good luck.

I'm not giving up on finding a good one, I know I need some kind of help.

[sun_flower]

Originally Posted by jbmomg

For me, I too had to go through about six t's before i found one that really worked and i connected too. And actually my son's pediatrician recommended him.. I personally think you gotta have some sort of connection somehow in order for you to progress or even want to continue to try. Current t (ten years) and i have a connection; at least in my mind. He has said to me alot " I like you and I care about you" and all i could think was that is because you don't know me yet... and now years, later.. he is still my t AND sometimes i still have a hard time believing him when he says stuff like that last session he told me i was "worthwhile" i have been hanging on to that for months now!

I'm glad that you have a good therapist. Keep him!
I would love to find one that I would have a connection with.

[sun_flower]

Originally Posted by sunrise

sun_flower, aside from this question from your therapist, did you like her otherwise? I remember an earlier thread from you where you were worried about her question to you. Did you ever see her again to sort things out? Maybe it was a misunderstanding and she didn't mean anything bad by it at all. If you liked her otherwise, could you give her another chance? I think I remember you had only seen her once? Maybe she didn't really get a chance to show you she could help you. Those early communications can be hard and prone to misunderstanding when you don't really know each other.

How nice that you remembered my other post.
I only saw her one time, and I did like her, and was looking forward to my next visit. Then I canceled, but wanted an appt. for the next week, and she seemed snippy about giving me another appt. because I canceled one.

But you see, getting my feelings hurt from something like this is one of my problems. I am SO sensitive to looks, and comments from people.
I read things one way, and that's my way.

I should probably email her for another appt. but at this point, I'm far too embarrassed to.

Thanks for your comment.

[pondbc]

Don't be embarrassed, Sunflower. Go ahead and do what you feel is right for you.
Oh, I so understand about being oversensitive. If I detect anything ambivalent in the other person I start thinking, "What have I done?" Never that they are preoccupied, upset for whatever reason.

Pachyderm, the magnificent therapist was warm, kind, funny, self-deprecating and told me that he had exchanged a prestigious job in a major city to start a therapy practice in our small town. This was to reduce stress on him and his family. That admission of fallibility endeared him to me instantly. I jotted down quite a few things he said to me and have reviewed them frequently. I would walk out of the sessions feeling like a $million. If had told me dandelions would make me better, I would have eaten them and they would have worked.

As for the other two (rotten ones)
#1 was a pompous twit who lectured me on mental illness like it was a course for simpletons. He stood up and wrote on his chalkboard and I sat dutifully watching.
#2 was a woman who started name dropping people in our community and making personal comments about them and asking if I knew them. Next she told me her life story. I listened dutifully.
I could make no connection with these two. You have to feel that the therapist cares and wants to help.

There are many people here that I feel a connection with even though we are just typing words to each other and have never met.

My greatest belief is that in therapy a therapeutic relationship/atmosphere is created so that we can heal ourselves.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by jexa

... there is a large subset of somewhat "subversive" research psychologists who are seeking out "process variables" - what are the mechanisms of change in therapy? They admit we don't know why what works, works. And I plan to join them in seeking out these answers. I want to be a clinical research psychologist. I want to help find a way to measure the therapeutic process in a valid way. I want to improve the way therapy is done in the community. I want people to get help that WORKS. So, I want to know HOW it works! This is my dream.. I will do everything I can to achieve this. One of the reasons I love PC is that there is so much process data here. Knowing how others experience therapy.. this will give me great insight when I am attempting to quantify the therapeutic process. It is quite a daunting task.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be an impossible task. Measuring anything about the process would mean focusing on the observable behavior of the participants but as far as I can tell, what makes the difference between good and bad therapy is their experience of what's going on.

50 years ago Carl Rogers wrote in some detail about his "process conception of psychotherapy" (Chapter 7 of On Becoming a Person -- excerpt here). I happen to think he put his finger on, or very near to, how therapy works (when it works). Unfortunately for any attempt to measure how it works, though, it seems to work not because of what we can measure but in spite of it.

I once had friends who used to bat around "imponderable" questions such as, "Is the perfect imitation of love the same as love, or not?" At the time, I didn't have an answer but now I'd say: clearly not! In one case you have the experience of loving; in the other case, of imitating. If the person who's the object of your attention isn't able to tell the difference (at first, anyway), that still doesn't change anything.

If you should someday want to quantify the seven stages of therapy that Rogers describes -- how would you go about it?

i have found the 12-step program adult children of alcoholics (and i'm not even from an alcoholic family) to be much more helpful than therapy. i think therapy is too unstructured for me and i have never really figured out how to do it. i can talk talk talk but it doesn't seem to change anything.

[dfh932]

Hi Sunflower,

I think it most definitely helps. But I've been where you are right now, scared to face another person and all their potential moods, attitudes, feelings, what-have-you...and that intense *focus* that is nice sometimes, but unnerving others.

So I suffered for a long time b/c it was just too unbearable to imagine sitting face-to-face with another person for an hour a week, not to mention the other, more subtle things like, would T be irritated if I did this (cancelled), or i wonder what she REALLY thinks...and every little nuance about a T could drive me crazy...

So i know it takes a lot of courage to go and to find someone, and to keep going to them...and especially to address things that happen within your T relationship that are upsetting...
But also, it doesn't have to happen all at once, thats one thing i like. If you take things real slow and you have a good T and can express to them things like, I had this feeling about this email we corresponded over...then it just takes a long long time, but those little baby steps build up to something really big. They build up to trust and stability eventually.

I don't know i feel like i'm not making sense ? But I just wanted you to know that i have felt so so so so broken, but psychotherapy is helping me, and i think it works with the right person.

[dfh932]

Oh yeah and the unstructured thing can drive me batty too.
But what i do is (and i don't even want to think about what T thinks about this, lol...maybe that i'm a control freak) almost every week, I bring in a list of concerns that i print out off the computer ...
Usually it's stuff that i've been writing about or thinking bout all week (im just no good at the spontaneous talking), and we go through the list. Each little problem (mad at H, made a bad grade, had this or that FEELING that i can't handle, don't understand this person/situation, etc.) spins off to other important things.
I'm still unpacking a lot of crap, and this process of list-making and thinking and talking with T helps me to know what to expect and makes me feel like each time i'm really, like...involved in the process, and like it's mine and T's ....not just T or not just me.

[jexa]

Originally Posted by Fool Zero

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be an impossible task. Measuring anything about the process would mean focusing on the observable behavior of the participants but as far as I can tell, what makes the difference between good and bad therapy is their experience of what's going on.

50 years ago Carl Rogers wrote in some detail about his "process conception of psychotherapy" (Chapter 7 of On Becoming a Person -- excerpt here). I happen to think he put his finger on, or very near to, how therapy works (when it works). Unfortunately for any attempt to measure how it works, though, it seems to work not because of what we can measure but in spite of it.

I once had friends who used to bat around "imponderable" questions such as, "Is the perfect imitation of love the same as love, or not?" At the time, I didn't have an answer but now I'd say: clearly not! In one case you have the experience of loving; in the other case, of imitating. If the person who's the object of your attention isn't able to tell the difference (at first, anyway), that still doesn't change anything.

If you should someday want to quantify the seven stages of therapy that Rogers describes -- how would you go about it?

And this is assuming that Rogers' conceptualization of the therapeutic process is the most valuable theory and the one that we would spend time attempting to quantify... while a majority of major research psychologists these days are more behavioral and scoff at Rogerian methods... My idea is that therapy should rely on a set of at least somewhat observable processes.

This is why. Therapy can be somewhat of an art. But we need to make it a science and something we can rely on because people's lives are at stake. I know it's nice to think of it as an art, and that making people's psyches into a science is nebulous and tricky and cannot possibly consider every minute detail because it is so vast and people are infinitely complex.. but we need to somehow make sure it works. Somehow we need to make therapy something we can truly depend on. So we need it to be a science. Somehow. So we may not be able to take into consideration every minute variable that may influence treatment. But we may be able to conceptualize some kind of formula which seems to explain the majority of successful treatment cases so that we can quantify the major mechanisms of change in therapy. Obviously there are going to be things we miss. But if we are mostly on target then it will improve the practice of therapy.

Now, some people are naturally good therapists. They just have a knack for it. They have high verbal ability and processing power and an ear for the truth and a sense for people. But this is not everyone who practices in mental health. But they are still out there practicing. We need this algorithm for those therapists. The ones who don't naturally have a knack for it but took the classes and did the work and have licenses. Making therapy a quantifiable, observable process (at least loosely, at least mostly) saves people from these kinds of therapists who may not be "naturals."

But I haven't even begun to get my brain around this, truly... I need to read and think.

[dfh932]

Hello,
Just to add some more confusion to the confusion and because i need a break from my mountain of homework.....one of my professors this morning said a main issue with with medical science is that the medical model is symptom-based.

He said that docs start with the symptoms, and assign treatments based on those. But as the patient progresses, many treatments (ie meds, surgery, diet, etc...depending on the severity of condition) may worsen the condition, or improve it, and lead to the unmasking of other, hidden symptoms ...sometimes alluding to a whole new possible diagnosis.

It reminded me so much of the therapeutic process...how we go in, tell the doc our problems/pain, and it pretty much starts from there and goes "inward."
Then most Ts will 'try on' different diagnoses and treatment plans to see what works and makes us feel better, while continuously upgrading and revising the original problem spectrum, and oftentimes revealing new and hidden causes of pain or etiologies.

So it's like we can't go in and get hooked up to a machine and the T is like, oh, I see you are bipolar with ocd, and this or that therapy/meds will work for you. It's more like, we go in...reveal a fraction of the problem, and the T works with what is given, and we work on it too...but it's this whole evolving process b/c just like we can't SEE what's going on inside our physical bodies all the time (internal organs, for example), we also don't know what unconscious processes we've internalized or what we don't realize we know...if that makes sense.

hope this doesn't sound crazy ha!

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by jexa

some people are naturally good therapists. They just have a knack for it. They have high verbal ability and processing power and an ear for the truth and a sense for people.

When people are applying to graduate programs to be therapists, is there any sort of assessment or demonstration they have to provide that they have these qualities? Or some potential for developing them? When a person applies to grad school in math or english or science, etc., they have to provide some demonstration of achievement, aptitude, or potential in their field (more than just interest). Are the students accepted into grad school to become therapists the ones who score highest in "high verbal ability and processing power and an ear for the truth and a sense for people"?

I know that's off topic, but what jexa wrote seemed like a list of possible screening criteria for becoming a therapist. I have recently had contact with a number of grad students in clinical psychology at a university. (Some may intend to practice, some do research only, some do both.) In general, my perceived "quality" of the grad students was rather uneven. Several, in fact, seemed to have no great interpersonal skills or ability to connect with people beyond average. One guy was outstanding, and would definitely be high in everything on jexa's list. Maybe the others had good potential as researchers. I'm just not sure how these people are chosen. The guy I felt was outstanding told me he loves teaching so might want to stay in academia. No, no, I wanted to say. You need to get out there and practice! The world needs therapists like you! (He did say maybe he would do a mix.)