[sugahorse1]

Going to try cut a long story short... (haha!)

Saw T today and had some challenging conversations.

We started off with her asking me if I still posted on the internet forum (PC). So I said - Yes. She asked me what I was looking for/hoping to achieve.
So I said I try offer advice and support where I can, and at other times I put up posts asking for help when I'm down and feeling $h*t.
She then asked me how I felt that helped - was I looking for sypmathy or empathy...? Wow - now I actually realised I'm not quite sure I understand the difference between these two words, and I definitely am not sure why it was important to her that I discern between needing sympathy or empathy.
So - that's the first point that confuses me.

Then we carried on discussing the importance of the internet forum (PC) in my life. I said I liked to hear from people who have been through it, who know how things run their course (In my case, the various cycles of bipolar), I like hearing from people that KNOW what to expect...
Then she asked why it was so important that it had to be people that had been through it themselves. Are they the only ones that understand your pain...?
I told her: yes.
So she said: does that then mean that a psychologist does not know what you are going through or what you are feeling, unless they've experienced it too? I kind of agreed with her, but then it became apparent that it was a bit of an absurd statement.

I'm still not sure - can someone know the pain of depression if they've never been there? (Especially if they are a professional, and they should know what you are going through) Do they exercise empathy or sympathy towards you?
How can they understand the various psychiatric disorders without having experienced them?

It almost implies you can understand and learn anything and everything from studying books. Now that makes no sense to me. You cannot expect to be able to drive a car, understand the dynamics of a clutch... by reading a book. Only when you are sitting in the car, does it suddenly make sense.
But our T's read books, and we think they can just understand everything...?

I know I'm mad , but have I really lost the plot?!?

[peaches100]

Sugahorse,

I think the training t's are given equips them with enough information about our disorders/issues that they can offer helpful support and guidance, as well as showing us coping skills. However, i agree that they can't really know "how it feels" to be bipolar. They can read descriptions of how bipolar people feel and react to things, but they can't personally experience in their own minds and bodies the manias and depressions, and other features of bipolar.

It sounds to me like your t might be concerned about you going to PC for advice because she's afraid you will trust the advice of people here, rather than putting your trust in her (the professional). Maybe she's afraid it will affect your therapy negatively (for example, if the advice on PC differs from her advice). Just a guess. . .

I think you should talk to your t more about this. Maybe she will tell you why she is so concerned about it.

[PreacherHeckler]

I think T's can understand our disorders and know how to help us without knowing exactly what it feels like to experience it, just like doctors can understand and treat cancer or heart disease without being afflicted with those illnesses themselves. I think the people who have been through it probably have a much better understanding of the way it feels, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are equipped to treat it.
I see my T as the expert in providing treatment, just as a doctor or dentist is the expert in providing treatment, but sites like this provide the perspectives of people who have lived it, so there are benefits to having both the experts and our peers as part of our healing.

[sugahorse1]

I see the purpose in both the professional and support forums.
I don't think she's concerned (That's not how she came across) but she was interested. I trust her as a professional, and i believe she has the tools through her training.... it still opened a very interesting conversation.
I don't think I'll ever take someone's advice on PC (Sorry to everyone) if it is the complete opposite to what my T says. If I'm unsure, I'd also rather discuss it with my T first - she is the professional after all.

[Travelinglady]

Hi, Sugahorse! I seem to think that somewhere in our message to newbies, we tell them that they aren't to take the advice given here as necessarily totally accurate (or words to that effect.) After all, we do have our biases. I do agree with the other folks that T's are definitely trained to try to understand our ailments. I know they have to work in a mental-health setting for their training, for example. My current T has even worked in a mental hospital.

I think "sympathy" means "feeling sorry for someone" and "empathy" means trying to sort of put yourselves in the person's shoes, to appreciate their feelings. That might be oversimplified, but, anyway, something like that.

I can't say that I want someone to feel sorry for me, but it is nice to have people who have "been there and done that." I prefer seeing women for gynecology and as obstetricians, for example. At least they know what it's like to be a woman! Even I prefer women as regular doctors....My p-doc is a woman. I think I've heard that about half of them in the field now are.

My T thinks it's okay that I'm on PC. She's just concerned that it doesn't envelop my whole life....

[sugahorse1]

"I can't say that I want someone to feel sorry for me, but it is nice to have people who have "been there and done that." "
This is EXACTLY what I was trying to explain to her

My GP is a male, but my T and pdoc are both female. I've never had a male T, but assumed there is more empathy (or sympathy?!?) with a woman, as opposed to a male. And wrt pdoc's, I've had both, but again prefer the more patient and caring approach that females tend to have.

I know they have the training, but they cannot have the experience (And I cannot expect a T to have experienced all the disorders either, lol!). I guess it's neither here nor there, as long as she is helping me.

[Melbadaze]

Originally Posted by sugahorse

I know they have the training, but they cannot have the experience (And I cannot expect a T to have experienced all the disorders either, lol!). I guess it's neither here nor there, as long as she is helping me.

I personally don't believe "disorders" are stand alones, I believe in the human condtion and suffering and some may like to package that up to earn from it and call them "disorders", disorder of the normal state of being is about as close to believing in labels as I get, and I think any human being has experienced that from time to time, we have all experienced loosing a loved one and grief, and we have all experienced terror moments perhaps if only in childhood, yes like myself my ablity to regulate wasn't taught as a baby so lifes circumstances were rather extreme for me, but any human being knows what trauma can do to someone, no need to package it up and have it some seperate entity for drug companys to earn from, and many in the psychiatric field to benefit from. To believe no one can understand us but someone else that has been through what "I" have been through is more about keeping me caught up in it because of fear, a defence, keeps me in victim mode. just my thoughts on "disorders" and "labels".

[sugahorse1]

I don't think it's necessarily around labels - and I'm thinking out aloud now - but more about having been in "that place" and know what it feels like.
As the conversation progressed, I realised that maybe I wasn't that correct in my statement, that it must be possible to learn without experiencing, to guide without experience; the fact that knowledge was the backbone of this process

[Melbadaze]

I think its more about a therapist knowing and understanding her self, this is then applied to clients, and sometimes this means a therapist having gone through the healing process herself or himself, this is where most understanding and real knowledge is obtained, your correct in reading a book just gives one an intellectual slant but knowing oneself is the only way really toward helping someone else.

[Symbiosis]

Sugar,

I really like this question.

In my opinion, the answer is yes and no (great, huh?) I think there is no one better to understand what you are going through than the person who has already walked thousands of miles in the same shoes. On the other hand, I think there are ways that therapists can get a lot closer to understanding than say, your friend or a spouse or Joe Smoe. And within the therapist realm, I think there is a wide range of "getting it" versus just not getting it.

I've worked in human services in a variety of capacities (never as a T). When I started I was very intrigued about schizophrenia and what it felt like. Of course, I couldn't ever know. What I did to try to get more perspective was read everything I could. I was extremely frustrated that I couldn't find any first person accounts (and btw this was long before A Beautiful Mind came out). And I finally, I found one and it was everything I hoped it would be. It described that first break in rich detail from the person who was experiencing schizophrenia's perspective. I really felt like I got somewhere, some kind of enhanced understanding that you don't get from textbook stuff or even a therapist's point of view on the illness. But naturally, I will never understand like another person with schizophrenia can understand (though it is probably a poor example considering the lack of social engagement nature of the illness, but you get the idea.)

[lostyoungling]

I haven't read through all the responses and this is a quick response but a very wise pdoc once told me that most therapists and counselors don't become them because they don't know what it's like. And in my experience that's been true. Almost all of my tdocs have had their own problems and issues. Been through rough times and come out stronger. I've always felt it to give me hope. I also want to be a counselor sometime in life. I want to help people like me and help people like the ones I've known who no one helped at all. I can't make any broad and sweeping statements but I think a lot of tdocs know where we're coming from.

[Melbadaze]

R.D Laing is really interesting to read on schizophrenia, actually demystifies the whole schizophrenia thing, when its understood as a reaction to something rather then something only certain people could ever understand.

[WePow]

This is a good thread. It is interesting to hear how other Ts see PC. My T is happy for me that I have this as an additional support system. He said it counts toward group therapy hours :-) It allows me to process through a lot of stuff and also connect with others. It is a way of seeing my own thought process and at the same time seeing how others think and feel.

My T does have a history of CSA, and I do know it has impacted the way he is with me in therapy. He DOES understand what I am going through. And he is able to give me safely what I could not get from a T who read it or was schooled in it. They might know how to say things that help, but my T looks at me without words - and his eyes tell me that he not only understands what I am going through, but he wishes I didn't feel the way he has felt before. But he also shows me that there is hope on the other side.

It is easy for someone who hasn't been there to read about wellness and tell others how it can be.. and that is fine. But it is hard for someone like me who knows the pain to trust someone who has not been there when they say "You will get over feeling like this." How do they KNOW that? But my T - when he tells me "This will pass" - I know it is truth because he has walked in my shoes. I wish he hadn't. I wish no one had to ever know the pain CSA causes. But he did know it. And well, I look in his eyes and see a warrior who remains standing in spite of everything he went through. And even when things happen still for him, he keeps on being a T for others. I see it. I can see the sessions when he had to force himself to be there when it was hard - because he knew somoene that day needed him.

Just seeing that makes me think that maybe that is how I can be too. Maybe... with some more time and hard work, I can be that type of a person. And that is why I am in therapy anyway. I want to be a person I admire.

So not saying every T has to first hand know every issue clients have. But I do think it is worth the time and energy to find a T who does really understand your issues in a deeper way than book learning or seminars.

[Kacey2]

I had a similar discussion with my t. I was feeling like I needed to test him and see if he would be vulnerable with me before I opened up about all the dark secrets of my past so I asked him to tell me the time that he was the most afraid in his life. I also asked him about the saddest thing that had ever happened to him and he gave me a bogus answer about a time that his son had cut his hand and needed stitches.

Well let's just say in a nutshell he really failed that test. I told him so after the fact as well. It was either he is really not being truthful with me or we come from two different worlds. I told him that and there was no way he could ever understand me. He gave me the whole cancer/doctor metaphor and I was like yah yah. So eventually he challanged me by asking me if it was going to work out for me to have him as my t since he hadn't been abused or ya know... or had any near death experiences and I said I don't know. So he asked me to think about it for a while and this is what I eventually came up with.

He doesn't have any life experiences that even remotely shaddow mine and I still have a strong sense of isolation. I am the only one. However, he is trained to be a helper for me to navigate life. He is sometimes the only stability I have every week. He has empathy and attunement down to an art. Some of it he was taught during his training and others are his God given attributes that come naturally. If he did have a past that mirrored mine he might not be in any shape mentally to provide me the the guidance that I need.

He does recognize the sense of isolation that I have and has been trying to help me find others that I can relate to but we have been having a tough time coming up with something in my county. I went to a sexual abuse survivor group that he recommmended and I was the only one who showed up. Talk about demoralizing.

Interesting debate I agree. Very thought provoking indeed. Good Post!

Originally Posted by Kacey2

He does recognize the sense of isolation that I have and has been trying to help me find others that I can relate to but we have been having a tough time coming up with something in my county.

Ugh, me too. T and I have been looking for years, literally, for a group for me. I feel so ALONE. T told me that if I was in a group, sharing what I share with him, everyone would be nodding along like "me too, yep, that's how it is for me". I NEED that.

I've asked T more than a few times if HE will start a group. Last time I asked him, he said "I'm thinking about it". So, who knows?

It's really really really hard to feel so alone with it.

[looking4polaris]

This is a really great thread. I think there are many ways to have and come to great understanding of a thing and to learn about and experience a thing without having to duplicate another's experience.

My T/Pdoc's experience with caring for me as a bipolar patient is certainly different than the path I've walked as a bipolar patient. For me, whether or not he, with his own unique training/experience (whatever that may be) can really understand and help me depends a great deal on whether or not I believe he can.

[skeksi]

All the things about T that help me feel healed have nothing to do with his personal history: his quiet voice, his stillness when I talk, his ability to feel angry or sad for me, his patience and caring and constant compassion. There are plenty of people, I suspect, who have been through what I have who *couldn't* help me as he has. In some ways I think it's good that he is from a different world, so to speak, because I know he is working hard all the time to try to get where I am coming from and what life is like for me.

[WikidPissah]

Originally Posted by sugahorse

Going to try cut a long story
It almost implies you can understand and learn anything and everything from studying books. Now that makes no sense to me. You cannot expect to be able to drive a car, understand the dynamics of a clutch... by reading a book. Only when you are sitting in the car, does it suddenly make sense.
But our T's read books, and we think they can just understand everything...?

I remember learning to drive a stick, getting used to the feel of where the clutch cuts off and everything. I am good at it, been driving one for more then 20 yrs. But when the transmission breaks, or a new clutch needs to be put in I am clueless. I need a mechanic...one who has experience viewing the system from a totally different angle then me. Knowing how to uses the clutch doesn't equate with knowing how to fix it.

In the many times I have take my car in for repairs I have never asked the mechanic if they knew how to drive a stick, only if they knew how to fix it....because driving it is what I do, and repairing it is what they do.

In the many times I have take my car in for repairs I have never asked the mechanic if they knew how to drive a stick, only if they knew how to fix it....because driving it is what I do, and repairing it is what they do.

this is soooo goood! I love it! thanks

[Travelinglady]

Yeah, I love the car analogy, too!

You know, after reading all of these thoughts, which is really great, I keep coming back to the thought of the shared humanity of us all. I think the best therapists ARE the ones who don't mind sharing their humanity with us. As some of you have suggested, we do just have "labels." All humans have suffered pain of some type, having had some down times in their lives, etc. Like, me, as a bipolar--I have highs and lows--they're just higher and lower than the average person. I know I've had therapists who have suffered loss, serious illness, dysfunctional family problems and so on. My current T and I are at about the same age and stage in life, with both of us having elderly mothers, teenaged children, etc., so I think that happens to be good for me right now. The best therapists can "feel our pain," because they are in touch with their own humanity. Am I sort of summarizing it okay?

[ladyjrnlist]

I believe that bipolar is very unique to each individual and even we bipolars don't know really exactly how the others feel.

[sugahorse1]

Thanks for your thoughts.
I guess the concept of humanity is the one that hits home the most - A T that can be honest and empathetic, and can show caring under "understanding".
And I agree, I appreciate the time i can sit in silence with my T and feel safe, safe enough to share, and hopefully soon - to show emotions.
T helps me see things from a different perspective. But she can only do that if I am 100% honest and also put my thoughts and feelings on the table for her to analyse.