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  #26  
Old Jun 18, 2011, 08:42 AM
Anonymous37798
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Originally Posted by peaches100 View Post
Hi Squiggle,

I'm glad you understand and don't think what I'm wanting is unreasonable. I realize t can't always get back to me immediately. I have no problem waiting a few hours, or even a day or a weekend if i email on a Friday. But if I email a question on Monday morning, and she says she's too busy and will get back to me later, and doesn't do it at all -- then when i go into my session Wednesday at 3 pm, i am going to be upset.

She KNOWS it's a sticky point for me. She KNOWS it triggers me horribly. I just can't understand why she does it. I know she's busy, but it just seems like if she cared about me, knowing what she does about my triggers, then she would be careful not to keep saying that, but make an effort to at least give me a short answer to my question.
Getting settled into email communication did take awhile. I guess some clients email just to 'talk' but don't necessarily need/want a response. If I send an email, I do want a response of some kind. She was not clear on that in the beginning. I guess that goes back to asking for what you need.

I told her that I always want/need a response if I email her. I will tell her if I don't need one, so we are kind of the opposite as most on here. This is so dang confusing at times!!

I still think you are right!! It should be part of their job to return phone calls/emails! If those got excessive from a client, I can see where there needs to be a limit and strict boundaries.

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  #27  
Old Jun 18, 2011, 11:55 PM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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I still think you are right!! It should be part of their job to return phone calls/emails! If those got excessive from a client, I can see where there needs to be a limit and strict boundaries.
Squiggle, I don't know if it's part of a T's job to return phone calls and emails, especially emails. Many don't allow phone calls or emails except for change of appointments. My T thought it would be helpful to respond to all my emails, but then she realized it wasn't working out for her or for me. I'm not sure I totally agree, but I don't have a choice. There are many reasons she doesn't want to answer all of my emails. One is that she does not want to do therapy via email. She wants to do it face to face. Two, she said if she didn't respond in a certain way or answered all of my concerns, I got upset and emailed her again. This could go on endlessly. Three, if there is so much emailing, then I don't have to tell her my feelings in the session. She also said she agonized over every word because she said it was like therapy.

So, every T is different and I also think they struggle with email. In the past, it was just phone calls, and the T could end the call and it's done with. It was easier. Though I have to admit I would call my T back a second time sometimes because I wasn't satisfied with the call.

Peaches, I'm sorry emailing is still such a trigger for you. I think Tay had some good advice about it. I think YOU have to change because your T doesn't seem able to even though she knows your feelings about it. It doesn't mean she doesn't care about you; it just means she's not perfect, or she's doing it because she doesn't want you to expect so much from her. Is that a possibility?
  #28  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 05:51 AM
sittingatwatersedge sittingatwatersedge is offline
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Originally Posted by peaches100 View Post
.....I know i should not take it personally because people DO get busy. But I still hear it as "Everything I am doing from Monday morning until Wednesday afternoon is more important than you and your question. I won't even take 5 minutes of that time to address your concerns." ...........Am I wrong to think this way?
((((((((((( peaches!! )))))))))) I really, really get what you are feeling.

Just a week ago I too would have said, "I know I should not take it personally ".... but..... I called T's voice mail at dawn thirty last Thurs morning and said, about those two extremely upsetting things that I told you will be happening in my workplace today and tomorrow, I don't usually do this but if you have any words of encouragement for me, I could sure use them."
I was in tears when I called. Now we are five days down the road, and I haven't heard from her. Thanks for all the support, T.
The idea of cancelling my Wed appointment keeps coming up; there is just not bloody much she could say that would (in my opinion) justify her getting a phone call from a very upset client looking for reinforcement, and not giving any reply. I have never felt so keenly that I am just a job to her, and I don't want to talk to her about it. Much worse, all the issues we have been working through for all this time suddenly seem very laughable, very pointless. They're my issues, not hers, what on earth am I bothering her for?
Thanks for this!
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  #29  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 06:02 AM
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(((((((((sawe)))))))))))

OH wow, how painful

Remember that there is always the possibility that she didn't get your message for whatever reason, or that she is out of town, or sick, or any number of things. I know once I called my T and left a message and there was something really wrong with his voice mail and he didn't get any messages for 2 days. It stinks, but it happens sometimes.

I can easily see my T not calling back in that situation if he got the message the next day (after the thing that I needed support for was over). And that would make me super angry, actually, and I would tell him.

I'm glad you're going to your session... because that way if she DIDN'T get your message, you'll find out. And if she DID and didn't call, you can tell her how that makes you feel. I know you know it's okay to be angry and hurt, and to TELL her that you are angry and hurt.

Hugs to you, dear (((((((sawe))))))) Waiting for a call and not getting it is just excruciating.
  #30  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 08:28 AM
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peaches100 peaches100 is offline
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Originally Posted by sunrise View Post
Peaches, I think your T should establish better boundaries around her email communication with you as you are getting hurt due to your unfulfilled expectations. The question about disorganized attachment seems like one that could be asked in session, rather than something a person needs to know immediately, but maybe it was indeed critical for you? If so, maybe the urgency of your need to know was not apparent to your T. Also, she may be trying to get you to go with fewer emails between sessions, and so she waits until session for what she judges are not critical needs. If the latter, I think she should communicate to you that this is something she would like you to work toward rather than leave you with expectations that are not met.

This business situation sounds like one where you have a salary and as part of your job, you answer phone calls and emails. You are paid to do this as part of your day. I view my business relationship with T as different. I think of it is fee for service, which is only the minutes we are in session together. I do not expect him to call and email me in between sessions in order to maintain a business relationship with me. He fulfills his responsibility to me in those 50 minutes. He also has a responsibility to have me hospitalized if I should be suicidal. Beyond this, he doesn't have to do anything! Another business model extends the professional relationship outside of your face-to-face time but charges for any time spent on you. For example, my lawyer bills me for every phone call or email. Don't like it, but that's her business model and I can go elsewhere if I want something else. I respect that Ts also get to determine their business model. My T doesn't charge for reading or answering my emails but my messages are only on the topic of reschedulings so take very little of his time and don't require him to do any research or worry about wording and being therapeutic by email. His phone calls are now responded to by a third party. This is his model. My daughter's T has a model that includes charging for any phone call over 10 minutes long. I wonder if there would be fewer misunderstandings and hurt feelings if your T were clearer about her business model?

I know this is a continuing source of discontent for you with your T and I hope you can discuss it and work it out. I really think your T needs to establish clear expectations and then stick to them. I think you may be feeling hurt because she said she would respond to informational emails between sessions and then she didn't. If she says she will, then she should. Otherwise, don't make promises to the client. Or she could say she will respond to informational emails if she has time, but otherwise she'll address it in session. Then you wouldn't be so hurt. Hope you can work it out.


Hi Sunrise,

I understand what you're saying. But I'm not sure that t's job only involves the fee for service 60 minutes. But maybe I am wrong. In my job, i do specific work projects for a specific price. I actually bid on the job based on the work involved and how long it will take me. Then, based on an agreement with my client, exactly that amount of money is budgeted for me to do the work. However, I'm not paid for the time I spend on emails and phone calls with that person related to the work I'm doing. Still, I'm expected to take those email and phone calls and reply to them. Isn't that the same situation with my t?

She's a salaried employee of the hospital she works at. She's not in private practice. So she's paid for the job she does, and some of that job involves work outside the therapy hour. For example, writing up therapy notes, contacting insurance companies to get approval for additional sessions, etc. Wouldn't occasional emails from clients about their therapy apply too? I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to understand why email and phone messages are considered a regular part of my job but not hers.

Right now, I'm leaning on just not emailing anymore at all period.
  #31  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 08:32 AM
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peaches100 peaches100 is offline
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Originally Posted by PreacherHeckler View Post
When my T agreed to allow email he would not promise to read every email or respond every time I asked him to. He said he would read and respond when he had time. For awhile it was very frustrating for me and hard to understand because I was so used to "making time" to meet someone else's needs that I just couldn't see why he was unable to do the same thing. It made me feel like he didn't really care and I wasn't important.
Eventually, though, I realized that just because I always found a way to make time to meet someone else's needs, it wasn't necessarily a healthy thing for me or for the other person. When I looked at it that way I began to see my T's behavior as modeling good boundaries and self-care. He balances his needs with mine -- he never charges extra to read or respond, and like Sunrise said, some T's do charge extra for any kind of between session contact, so now I can appreciate the contact we do have between sessions, because it isn't something he's obligated to do as a T. He chooses to make himself as available as he wants to be, and when he doesn't want to be available to read or respond to email, I can respect that now, and I'm glad he never made promises he would have a hard time keeping.

Preacherheckler,

Hmmm. Well, I guess I could think of my t as modeling self-care. But in a job setting, are we allowed to put our own needs first, ahead of our customers? I've always been taught that the customer should come first. But like I told Sunrise, maybe i am wrong in my thinking. I just am not sure.

I think part of the problem is that for a long, long time, my t always replied to my email messages. For a few years. It has only been in the last year or so that she has started to tell me she doesn't have the time. So it has felt bad having her take away something that I've been used to having from her.
  #32  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 08:39 AM
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venusss venusss is offline
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But peaches... your question was not something only your T and not anybody else could answer... you could easily google it.

if you are in a company and customer comes with a request that they could easily do themselves... should they be put up and others with more important issues come after?

maybe your T is feeling you are getting better and don't need her so much anymore..
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  #33  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 08:41 AM
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peaches100 peaches100 is offline
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I've been trying to think of an illustration to explain how i feel. This may not be a good one, but I'll try . . .

Let's say you have a war vet, and they have PTSD from being shot at in the war. So, every time they hear a sound similar to a gunshot, they go into a full-blown reaction (ducking, covering their head, freaking out). Now let's say they have a next door neighbor that is familiar with their PTSD and how terrifying it is for their trauma to be triggered. Now let's say that neighbor decides to go out and set off fireworks outside, and his neighbor totally panics and freaks out. No, he is not being shot at literally, but it "feels" like it because his trauma has been triggered. Let's say he tells his neighbor how it makes him feel when sudden fireworks are set off. But the neighbor does it again a few days later. And then again 3 weeks later. Then again. . .

Well, my core trauma has to do with feeling unimportant, insignificant, unworthy, and left alone when in danger or unprotected. Nobody being there when i really needed them. I also had instances where i really needed my mom, but would get in trouble for calling her at work when she was busy. My t knows this, and she knows that when i email her at work with a concern and she says she's too busy or doesn't respond, it triggers the old strong pain for me. Yet she still does it. Now just like that war vet, I know that she is not literally rejecting me and saying that I'm insignificant and unimportant and that i don't matter. But it "feels" that way because it triggers my old trauma. Then why keep doing it again and again again? Especially when, instead of saying, "I'm too busy to reply to your concern right now," she could have just typed a short answer to my concern?
  #34  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 08:41 AM
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peaches100 peaches100 is offline
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I don't know. I guess i am just wrong all around.
  #35  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 08:43 AM
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Maybe she is trying to train you for the real world instead of accomodating you in your bad perceptions?

have you been working on the self-worth issue? How?
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  #36  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 09:22 AM
Anonymous29412
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Hmmm. Well, I guess I could think of my t as modeling self-care. But in a job setting, are we allowed to put our own needs first, ahead of our customers? I've always been taught that the customer should come first.
Since she is a therapist, maybe modeling good self-care IS putting the client first.

I know that I don't want my kids to grow up and think that taking care of themselves is unimportant...so part of my job as a parent is modeling good self-care...showing them how I use coping skills to get through hard times, exercising, making time for friends, getting enough rest (well, okay, I don't model that last one very well).

My parents' version of "self-care" was drinking. Watching my T model good boundaries and good self care (and watching him do it without guilt!) has been huge for me in my healing.


I KNOW this is so painful for you, peaches. I think there comes a time when we have to work on our own reactions to things that are out of our control. Maybe you and T could talk about ways you can cope when she is too busy to respond. I have some things that I can do....knit and watch a show on my computer, go for a walk, look for books on amazon that I can get from the library...that can sometimes take my mind out of whatever spiraly loop it's in, at least for a while. But it takes time, and work, and practice, and it's not easy, that's for sure. I am hoping it gets easier with time.
to you
  #37  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 11:13 AM
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darkrunner darkrunner is offline
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Hi Peaches,
I think you have a valid question about what Ts job should include.
I think it must vary depending on where the T works.

My T is in private practice and she doesn't even have a computer in her office, so I know that any time she spends replying to emails is pretty much her own personal time.

If your T is salaried, I guess I would depend on the hospitals policy, and how many clients they put on her weekly schedule and what other things are expected of her in her non-therapy time, like reports, phone calls, etc.

But if you think about it, if a T gets an email from 30 clients a week and takes only 5 minutes to respond, (which is a low estimate) that would add up to 2 and a half hours a week! I think that is a lot of time to spend emailing...
  #38  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:40 PM
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peaches100 peaches100 is offline
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Originally Posted by PTSDlovemycats View Post
I completely understand. I get SO pissed off when I send a text to my T asking her a question and it can take her a whole day to respond. How hard is it to actually type "yes" or "no" ??? It takes SECONDS!! I have NO patience for it. It is my biggest peeve with my T.

Hi PTSDlovemycats,

At least i know i'm not the only one who feels this way. And i agree, typing "yes" or "no" is just as easy (if not quicker) than typing back that she is too busy to reply. That's why it confuses me how she sticks to her guns and refuses. It makes me think that there is more going on than her just not having the time to respond. I think she is trying to lessen my dependence on her. And while i understand that, it still hurts.
  #39  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dizgirl2011 View Post
I also find this extremely frustrating.

I rarely contact my T outside of sessions but twice she didnt reply at all. She almost always takes at least 24 hours or more to repond, unless she wants me - then shes very quick. I think she does it because she wants me to tolerate the feeling of having to wait and any negative feelings that may go along with that. It really annoys me even though really she has every right not to repond. I guess its the oddness of the theraputic relationship, thinking you're close to someone and that, that person would repond the way any other person would do, but they dont.
Hi Dizgirl,

Maybe my t wants that: for me to learn to tolerate having to wait and the negative feelings that come with it. But if that's true, then why doesn't she just tell me that??? Instead of using the "I'm busy."?? In a way, it feels kind of dishonest to use the busy reason if that's not really the reason. But all i can do is take my t at her word, which is that she really "is" too busy. Though, like we said, it doesn't make sense when she could have just responded Yes or No.
  #40  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:45 PM
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Honestly, I think if my therapist didn't reply, it'd be sorta mean.
Mine doesn't have phone communication between sessions, as far as I'm aware.
But she usually replies to my emails. (If it takes her a couple days, she replies with an apology too!)
What happens though, when she's out, the administrator of her organisation emails me and says that she's unavailable until <insert day> and I could talk to another therapist if I wanted to.
I usually say nope.
But when I send an email to her, even if it's a couple lines, she always replies with a couple paragraphs.
sometimes I wish she wouldn't oblige my communications like that, but I'm glad she does.

Hi Crash&Burn,

I'm glad your t responds with a paragraph or two. My t used to do that. That's probably why it hurts so much now that she won't. If you can, try not to get "too" used to her replying, just in case the situation changes someday and she can't continue to give you that same level of support. I would never want you to go through what i am going through.
  #41  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Flooded View Post
My pdoc rarely replies unless I have a specific question or I'm in danger, had a particularly difficult session with her.. Yes it does feel like rejection but I understand my t has two kids, a hubby, extended family that ALL come before me not to mention the 25 or so other private patients she sees weekly or the patients in the public hospital. She simply does not have time to reply ALL the time and I've never been forward enough to question it.
Flooded,

That's nice that you can put yourself in your t's place and respect her time like that. I didn't feel that i was asking tons from her. I don't call or email her when she's at home, at nights, or on weekends. Only a couple of times each week, during her workweek. But i guess that's too much also.
  #42  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:49 PM
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Suratji Suratji is offline
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Originally Posted by peaches100 View Post
Hi Dizgirl,

Maybe my t wants that: for me to learn to tolerate having to wait and the negative feelings that come with it. But if that's true, then why doesn't she just tell me that??? Instead of using the "I'm busy."?? In a way, it feels kind of dishonest to use the busy reason if that's not really the reason. But all i can do is take my t at her word, which is that she really "is" too busy. Though, like we said, it doesn't make sense when she could have just responded Yes or No.
I have to agree with you here. If her intention is for you to learn to tolerate the wait, why doesn't your T tell you that is what she is doing so you know that you're getting a chance to practice it. I guess its her lack of consistency that is crazy-making.
  #43  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin View Post
i think email is a big deal. i think email can cause a lot of harm to clients. that means that i think about my emails. i think about the question and whether i can answer it in email (which doesnt convey body language, tone of voice, etc) or whether it should be addressed in person or even via telephone. the LAST thing i intend to do is just shoot off a thoughtless half-assed email to a client. i value their well-being more than that. i would much rather drop a line saying i dont have a lot of time, but i will get to their question later. and then i make it a point to get to that email later.

also, i dont think the question you asked has a brief response that wouldnt lead to more questions. but maybe im an over-explainer.

Hi Dr. Muffin,

Thanks for explaining your opinion and why you sometimes choose to delay answering an email question. You said the question i asked about disorganized attachment wasn't one that could be quickly answered. So maybe that's why my t didn't want to spend the time on it. But on my next session, she didn't refer to earlier email question or answer it. So it didn't get answered at all. Sorta made me feel that she did view it (and me) as unimportant. I should have brought it up again myself but i just let it go.
  #44  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:54 PM
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why add "and me"? Maybe the question was not that important at the moment as you talked other stuff.

That does not mean she views you as a person unimportant..
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Thanks for this!
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  #45  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 03:56 PM
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Suratji Suratji is offline
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Originally Posted by peaches100 View Post
But on my next session, she didn't refer to earlier email question or answer it. So it didn't get answered at all. Sorta made me feel that she did view it (and me) as unimportant. I should have brought it up again myself but i just let it go.
I think that therapists will often let the client lead the session. Usually what we bring up is what is the most important to us at that time. We need to choose the topics that are bothering us the most. I don't believe that her not addressing something you mentioned in an email is any indication that she thinks you're unimportant. Yes, if it were important to you, you should have brought it up.
Thanks for this!
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  #46  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 04:13 PM
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Peaches: But on my next session, she didn't refer to earlier email question or answer it. So it didn't get answered at all.
Suratji: I think that therapists will often let the client lead the session. Usually what we bring up is what is the most important to us at that time [etc]

I have to say something here, hope that is OK
If a question is asked by the Client (by any method) between sessions, and isn't answered by the T before the next sessoin, I have to think that a response is due to the client. Yes n next session Client can and should bring up what may be pressing, whether that or something else, but somewhere (IMO) the T is obliged to acknowledge that a question was asked, and at least find out whether Client still considers it important enough to include in the session. If no, fine. But if the answer is yes, then T should have had enough time by now to put some thought into an answer.
Think about yr business contacts IRL. If you called or emailed with a question and never heard one word, you'd feel you due a response in a reasonable amount of time. Unusual circumstances are just that; but nonresponsiveness is unprofessional; and unfortunately one's silence can be interpreted by the other person in just about any way. The best thing is for T to inquire, and not hang everything on the client.

there now I will stop (or maybe it's ) either way I know you're glad!!
Thanks for this!
Suratji
  #47  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 07:09 PM
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BlessedRhiannon BlessedRhiannon is offline
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Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge
If a question is asked by the Client (by any method) between sessions, and isn't answered by the T before the next sessoin, I have to think that a response is due to the client. Yes n next session Client can and should bring up what may be pressing, whether that or something else, but somewhere (IMO) the T is obliged to acknowledge that a question was asked, and at least find out whether Client still considers it important enough to include in the session. If no, fine. But if the answer is yes, then T should have had enough time by now to put some thought into an answer.
I completely agree. My T is actually really good about this. If I email her between sessions, and it's not something she feels she can respond to in an email, or she wants to wait until the next session to talk about it, she tells me that in an email. Then, the next session, once we're both settled in her office, she starts with "let's discuss the email you sent" or some other prompt about the email, so that we can talk about it. I'm always very grateful that she does that. Even if what I've sent is no longer an issue, she always addresses it, and wants to know why it's not an issue any longer.
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Last edited by BlessedRhiannon; Jun 20, 2011 at 09:38 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag
Thanks for this!
Flooded, sittingatwatersedge, Suratji
  #48  
Old Jun 20, 2011, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by peaches100 View Post
Flooded,

That's nice that you can put yourself in your t's place and respect her time like that. I didn't feel that i was asking tons from her. I don't call or email her when she's at home, at nights, or on weekends. Only a couple of times each week, during her workweek. But i guess that's too much also.

Believe me, it took a mammoth amount of work on my part to get to "that place".
I had bombarded my previous t every day for 2 yrs before she had a breakdown and terminated our therapeutic relationship.
  #49  
Old Jun 21, 2011, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by peaches100 View Post
I'm expected to take those email and phone calls and reply to them. Isn't that the same situation with my t?
Great question for your T! I think if you can get this kind of question clearly answered by her, it will be easier for you. You may find, though, that her idea of her business model does not match your idea of what it is (or should be), so be prepared!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peaches100
Just trying to understand why email and phone messages are considered a regular part of my job but not hers.
If she has adequate paid time to answer emails and phone calls, then this sounds like it might be part of her business model. Best thing, though, is to check with her on how your and her jobs are similar and different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peaches100
Right now, I'm leaning on just not emailing anymore at all period.
I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, especially if you can't get things cleared up with your T. I basically NEVER call my T because he often won't answer and it hurts. I just send a brief email occasionally about scheduling. There is no hurt. I consider this to be looking out for myself. Since you are very triggered when your T doesn't respond to your emails, the way to take this into your own hands and solve this is to not email, because you can't force her to answer you. She is the service provider and she gets to determine the business model. You are the customer and you can pay for what she offers or take your business elsewhere. You can also ask her to change, which you have, and she hasn't. So you have the power to solve this, Peaches, as you have already seen. If you stop emailing her, there is no problem, there is no hurt. Yes, there are other ways to solve this, such as continued discussion, but I sense you may have had enough of that! Your "no email" plan solves things immediately.

I do think it is not the T's role to avoid our triggers, but yet I do understand the pain you feel when your T repeatedly does this thing that triggers you. As I've written about here on PC, my T began sitting in session with his laptop open next to him and sometimes looking at it while we are in the middle of talking. Sometimes he typed on it. I am very triggered by this and have spoken to him about it. After discussing several times, he has finally begun to consistently leave his laptop closed and out of our therapy area when I am there. I am very grateful that he has accommodated my wishes on this! I'm trying to think, well what's so different about Peaches' situation, and I think for me, it comes down to that you are asking her to do something outside of session whereas I am asking T to do something during our session (our paid time together). That's what's different to me. For example, if you got frustrated with T because during your session you asked her several questions and she didn't answer, then I think yes you should bring it up and she should try to accommodate your wish not to be ignored.
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Thanks for this!
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  #50  
Old Jun 21, 2011, 09:10 AM
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peaches100 peaches100 is offline
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I'm starting to wonder if i should get a new t. Not because my t is doing anything wrong. But maybe I've gotten too attached to her, and it's making things hard for me, such as not being able to accept her email boundaries. We've worked together a long time. Maybe i need a different sort of therapy to move forward.
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