[Chopin99]

Here is what I have processed related to T telling me she is uncomfortable with my clingy-ness so far:

Why T stating her boundary regarding touch triggers feelings of rejection:

My mother was not affectionate. I was bottle-fed and most pictures of me show Mom holding me at an arm's distance. I believe young children need physical affection from their mothers to feel safe, wanted, loved. As a child, I don't particularly remember feeling safe except when I was with my maternal grandparents. They showered me with affection. I still wanted Mom to love me that way, but she could not and I have forgiven her for that. That doesn't make the craving go away.

In school, from sixth grade until graduation, I was considered the "ugly girl". Made fun of. Barked at (that was the worst). I was untouchable. If someone touched me by accident, they would say, "oh, gross," and wipe off whatever body part was affected. My schoolmates and I were rather socially immature. We were treated as children from kindergarten (when we deserved it) through graduation day (when we did not). Our diplomas were not in the folders we received during the ceremony. If anyone "tried anything" during the ceremony, they would not receive their diploma (in the mail).

Being socially immature and not really learning basic social skills due to isolation by my parents and school has caused me a lot of problems in life. I have a tendency to be aloof with the world at large which turns people off. I have a tendency to be clingy with people I allow to get to know me which usually makes them run away. I don't want to be aloof or clingy. I'd love to find a happy medium, but I don't know how.

I am bi, but it is not a sexual affection I crave; it is anything but...I want a woman, older than I, to love me that way. To just hold me for more than a few seconds. To let me rest my head on their shoulder for a few minutes. I receive affection from H and have received affection from other men. That does not satisfy the craving at all. It is unreasonable to believe that my craving will ever be considered, much less satisfied. I don't know too many people who wouldn't think it's weird or gross. I feel great shame in desiring this from anyone. I feel embarrassed and ashamed that T tried to fulfill it to some extent, but was uncomfortable the whole time. I thought it was okay because I figured if it wasn't, she'd be honest and tell me. The fact that she thought it was in my best interest at the time is only mildly comforting; that she was willing to make that sacrifice for my sake, but simultaneously struggle with the fact that I love her and doing something for my sake made someone I love uncomfortable. I don't feel that I or that craving is worthy of that sacrifice.

I realize that it is not all my fault. T chose not to state the parameter in the beginning. She said she feels she was wrong to have allowed it to happen. She took responsibility for that. That is an adult reaction.

It still hurts on a lot of levels. It triggers Mom's physical rejection, which made me feel unwanted, unloved, and unsafe. It triggers being untouchable, which made me feel unworthy, unwanted, and unloved. It triggers fears of homophobia, which made me feel like something was wrong with me.

I feel shame, rejection, fear, anger, anxiety, loneliness, and doubt.

[CantExplain]

Heartbreaking.

Your T is wonderful in many ways, but I do feel she overemphasises her boundaries.

My T is never going to adopt me, but she can be my mother for an hour a week. Or she can be my lover or whatever else I need her to be.

I guess I used to crash against her boundaries quite a lot in the early days. Difficult to remember that now.

[Perna]

I sometimes think I get so caught up in my feelings that I forget they are just information, not actions, and I become rather like my two cats who, when you point to what you want them to look at, they look at the end of your finger instead of the object you're pointing at.

"I feel great shame in desiring this. . .". Do you feel shame in desiring to be rich and happy? Perhaps that's not a "true" desire of yours. How about when you are cold and wet, have come inside after being out in a cold, winter rain. Do you feel shame in desiring to be warm and dry?

I remember when I was 5 or 6 and almost every night I would get out of the bathtub and immediately huddle down next to the toilet, naked, with only a towel covering my shoulders and back. I'd be "stuck" like that, shivering for many minutes, unable to get myself to stand up and truly experience the chill, dry off completely and run into the bedroom and get into my warm, flannel pajamas. Often my stepmother would come in and either (a) chivvy me along in an irritated, frustrated, distracted manner to "quit fooling around" and dry off and get in my pajamas; sometimes it was worse and she'd mention my position, huddled against the toilet in a disapproving way, or (b) lift me up herself, dry me off, quickly, "warmly" and well, get me into my pj's and into bed where she'd start massaging my back and use the bed's good box springs to bounce me up and down in a pleasant, "fun" manner.

Neither way my stepmother used to get me from tub to bed was "right" or "wrong" and what I learned from that (the possibility of "(b)" being so pleasant it was worth huddling and living through "(a)" when it happened but "(a)" happened enough that I learned it was "odd" to huddle against toilets after one's bath, that is not a "normal" behavior other children had and my stepmother thought it "bad"/"wrong"), just more or less pleasant for me.

As I grew older, (a) happened more often than (b) so I learned to associate huddling against toilets after baths with something one did not do and (b) was pretty much extinguished and, by degree of negativity expressed, I knew my stepmother associated such behavior right up there with defecating in my pants (I had an "issue" when I was 7 which resulted in encopresis) and, not having any other "authority" to base my facts on (this is 1957 so no Google yet :-) I too decided it must bad, wrong, shameful, you-name-it and, since I was the doer, I must be bad, wrong, shameful too.

Do I have a point here? I'm not 7 anymore an my stepmother is dead. I still do not like being cold after I have had a bath/shower and would love to have my stepmother back to dry me off warmly, cuddle me, and massage my back. However, I now see that huddling against the toilet did not "cause" my stepmother's behavior. If my stepmother had only ever done (a), I would still not like being cold after I have had a bath/shower and would love my stepmother to dry me off warmly, cuddle me, and massage my back. I do not feel ashamed of that desire; it would be wonderful! But it is not practical for my adult life.

Wanting to be held by a mother-figure because you did not get all that you wanted as a child (any!) is not a shameful desire. It's not an any judgement desire, it just is. But what use is it other than as a comforting thought/desire or information to let you know you should look for some way to comfort yourself. Children cry themselves to sleep while they are learning to self-soothe themselves to sleep. If they aren't allowed to be unhappy and learn to self-soothe, they have that tough task to learn later. You now have the task of learning to love yourself in such a way that you are not ashamed of your feelings, to love yourself in such a way that you figure out how to soothe your desires (somewhat) rather than to be soothed by another. That takes a period of "crying yourself to sleep".

[SpiritRunner]

your post is so real to me. not just because you write similar to the way I write (long, flowery, etc etc ) but because I relate on an intensely personal level to both the feelings/needs you expressed and the hurt of T's boundary emphasis - both the original extension of them and then the tightening of them....because this happened with my 1st T.
she didn't usually hug her clients very often and we hadn't even discussed that at the beginning of my therapy, but it began to matter to me after about 3 months, so she began to hug me after session was over.....it was nearly every week, though I didn't always ask or feel the need. but she said later it was something she did because she felt it was important for me to learn to ask for what I needed - but then after she took away the hugs after 3 months (which was really the advice of her supervisor, the woman I never met but felt this toward because a few times my therapy took an abrupt course change after T talked to her) she told me that if she had realized the extent of my thoughts regarding touch (like equating touch/tears/comfort, feeling like I needed to be held to cry, because no one ever held me like that as a child really, and I felt like I could only let go of the tears if I was held by someone who knew all my inmost darkness/pain/shame and still loved me.....and I thought T did) or the intensity of my attachment or the sexual feelings/fantasies I struggled with regarding her (I am also bi, but really didn't want sex with her, just emotional intimacy/affection), she never would have hugged me at all. she had never done anything like that with anyone before......she really did have firm, strict boundaries which for some reason she let slip for me and then tightened them strictly. it was intensely painful....the session she told me there would be never be physical contact again was really one of the worst moments of emotional pain I remember in my life (there's a whole big fat long thread from a year ago where I worked through that pain and people on PC were SO helpful and loving)......so, talk about feeling untouchable/unlovable after that - especially when T's message had just the week before been, even though I expressed honestly the thoughts/feelings I was having that I was still lovable/touchable and she wouldn't stop hugging me. it hurt (well, still sorta does.....sigh). anyway, all this blabber of my story just to tell you that this >>>>>>It still hurts on a lot of levels. It triggers Mom's physical rejection, which made me feel unwanted, unloved, and unsafe. It triggers being untouchable, which made me feel unworthy, unwanted, and unloved. It triggers fears of homophobia, which made me feel like something was wrong with me.
I feel shame, rejection, fear, anger, anxiety, loneliness, and doubt.<<<< < resonates on a very deep deep level with me. I know that pain......and my heart aches for you.
I do like what Perna wrote though......it's not a shameful desire; now we need to learn to love/soothe/nurture ourselves. T told me this quite often after our rupture at that time.....she tried to help me learn how to do that....but I'd have to say T2 did a better job of it all, because her boundaries were clear and firm, she never touched anyone at all, from the beginning.....yet her nurturing was very real, her positive regard for me as a person worthy of nurturing was very real, and sunk into me and helped me learn somehow to begin to love/nurture myself more now......even if I still feel that old longing, which may never leave me, but feels more bearable to me at least....

[Chopin99]

Perna, your post has helped me feel much better about my desire. Thank you for being so open about your experience. It helped me!

SpiritRunner, my heart breaks that you had to go through that with your first T. I guess I can be grateful that T expressed that she still wants to hug me; she just feels the therapeutic relationship is not the place for long embraces. She might be right.

I know I need to learn how to love myself, but that's what I was hoping T would help me with. However, it is probably like my second T told me, "You are going to do all the work. I am going to support you while you do that work." Sometimes I do miss T2; she was a sweetheart, but I need a different kind of therapy than what she practices.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Perna

Children cry themselves to sleep while they are learning to self-soothe themselves to sleep. If they aren't allowed to be unhappy and learn to self-soothe, they have that tough task to learn later. You now have the task of learning to love yourself in such a way that you are not ashamed of your feelings, to love yourself in such a way that you figure out how to soothe your desires (somewhat) rather than to be soothed by another. That takes a period of "crying yourself to sleep".

There is a school of thought that children should not be left to cry themselves to sleep.

This may be "normal" in our society, but mothers from Africa and Asia are horrified that we can let this happen.

Western Civilisation leads the world in many areas, but probably not in the quality of our child-rearing.