[Chopin99]

Boundary Problems:
I am compliant, especially at work. I have a hard time saying no when asked to do something, even if I know I cannot do it.
I am also avoidant to some extent. I tend to shy away from other people helping me.
I am also a manipulative controller. Sometimes I give love to get love and get angry when it is not returned.

Phases of Boundary Development:
Bonding phase:
I never felt secure attachment with Mom. I believe I was fed and changed, but not cuddled or held often. If Mom was depressed when I was an infant, she was probably doing just enough to get by. I have been told I slept all the time, around 20-22 hours per day. However, I believe I received enough attention from my grandparents to help me be somewhat secure.
Separation and individuation phase:
I have been told I was a happy toddler without too many tantrums. I talked early and have heard myself on a recording at age 2.5 sounding as if I was 5. I was also learning to read at the same time. I don't know if my advanced verbal and reading skills had anything to do with my issues or how my parents treated me. My other milestones were normal.
1. Hatching
I don't know if Mom was saddened or okay with me exploring the world. I know she was afraid something would happen to me because she said I was a gregarious child who trusted everyone. Mom was very shy.
2. Practicing
I don't know how much I was encouraged to explore. Considering Mom's tendency to be overprotective and depressed, I don't know if she took much delight in my attempts to explore. My grandparents probably encouraged it, though.
Rapproachment phase:
I was told I was "fearless" until the day I started school, so I was not anxious at this age. I did not interact with other children until school age also, so everything was "mine". I owned it all. Apparently at this age, when told to clean my playroom by Mom, I replied, "No, that's your job." I did not know the word no from other people. Whatever I wanted materially, if I asked, I received. That's why I had two closets full of clothes, two rooms of my very own full of toys.

Boundary Injuries:
Withdrawal:
Throughout childhood and adolescence, I would experience withdrawal from Mom and teachers when I misbehaved. At school, we were TOLD God didn't love us and turned away from us when we misbehaved. I was told by Mom and Dad that it hurt them when I misbehaved, so I thought I was responsible for their moods. Because Mom was depressed, I thought it was my fault and tried to do anything to make her feel better, until I became resentful and hid in my room. Since isolation and abandonment occurred so often in my life, I fear it to this day.
Hostility against boundaries:
The #1 reason given when I was told no my Mom or Dad was, "Because I said so." Mom was a "fusser". She liked to yell when things went bad. I was never given choices. All I heard at school was about the angry, vengeful God.
Overcontrol:
I was basically not allowed to do much of anything when I was young. I was never allowed to have friends over. I still don't know why. I could play with a couple of neighborhood kids...at THEIR house. I was probably allowed to attend 3 birthday parties in elementary school. The first time I was allowed to sleep over at a friend's house, I was almost 17. I did stay overnight with friends out of town with the volleyball team, but that was highly chaperoned by the school, so my parents didn't worry so much. I spent WAY more time alone than with other people my age, almost exclusively at school.
Inconsistent limits:
There were other times my parents were lax. I would do something, get grounded for a week, then it would be lifted after three days. I almost never completed a full punishment sequence. Mom was extremely inconsistent in my adolescence because she entered menopause when I was 11. She went crazy. Add crippling anxiety to the depression and a worsening of OCD and NOTHING was ever consistent. Something that might be okay one day would sent her into a screaming crying fit where she'd leave the house for hours the next. I never quite knew what to expect, so I tried to become an expert at reading her moods.
Trauma:
The most traumatic thing that happened to me was entering parochial school at age five. This was the first time I had to interact with other children and I quickly learned I was bad, different, and not the princess. I was bad because our Bible verses and catechisms taught us that we were sinners. I was different because I already knew how to read...at the sixth grade level. I was singled out by the teacher and despite my advanced skills, was criticized because I used my finger to guide me. I also still sucked my thumb and the teacher tried to embarrass it out of me. There were 30 of us in my kindergarten class with one teacher and no assistant, so I certainly wasn't the princess.

[unaluna]

Hey Chopin, wow I have a box of emails like this to my T from the first year I was seeing him, only without the titles, MUCH more random, unfortunately! I would leave his office and go to the library and write. Is this the kind of thing to which your T responds, she doesn't do therapy by email? I never saw it as asking for therapy by email; I saw it as something I needed to do; if T read it, fine; if T didn't read it, that was fine too. Mine were pretty hard to read, as I do not edit. But I think it's important to DO. Maybe we need to bring all that stuff into "working memory", refresh those circuits, so the material is more readily available for session.

[Chopin99]

Hank, here's an example of an email she responded to:

I told H about session yesterday. I told him exactly this regarding your statement that I'm worth more than the risks: "I know what these risks are, so it meant a lot to me that she said that." He replied, "Hmph, your reading into it too much; people take risks all the time and don't think about the consequences. It's not that big a deal. But I will say, you're not assuming the worst. I guess that's progress." I said, "She seems to put a great deal of thought and prayer into her clients. I appreciate that." He went, "Hmph" again and that was the end of the conversation.

He took something that meant a lot to me and tried to minimize it. Your statement made me feel like I was worth something to someone; you've tried to convince me of my inherent worth for quite some time. You make an enormous impact on my life for the better.

But in the back of my mind, a little voice doubts, saying "Is he right? Is it really not that big a deal?"

Is he right?

Her response:

Don't let others steal your joy! *It might not be a big deal to someone else-they might not struggle with self worth. So it would not mean much to them. The truth is that I do think about the consequences of my choices especially when it comes to my clients and to my profession.
Your worth is set by God not by others or their opinions.
Have a great weekend

It's fairly representative of the email correspondence we've had.

[Chopin99]

Hankster I realize was wasn't really clear. No what I posted is nothing like the emails I sent T.

The first time she told me she didn't counsel via email was when I sent one that didn't really make sense because I OD'd on meds. I didn't realize I sent it until the next day. Basically, a "drunk email".

When she totally cut me off was when I sent this email; embarrassing, but I did it:

Another loss...but at least I'm used to this. It's what shut me down in the first place. *Just something else I'll have to grieve. Grief on top of grief that I still haven't grieved... don't know how to grieve. I finally opened up to you, told you how much I love you, what an angel you are to me. I crafted and gave you something that represented that. *You say you love me. You say you want me to heal. You say you'll help me learn how to get better. All that is great. I believe all that. *Then you'll leave just like almost everyone else. *It hurts. *I want to shut down and give up. *I always want what I can't have. *Why do I usually grow to love people who won't or can't be around me? Story of my life. It is so frightening for me to think I'm going to be utterly transparent, bare my soul to you like I never have to anyone else just to lose you in the end. It hurts so much. I don't know if I want to open up to you anymore; I don't want you to see who I am, it is simply embarrassing now. Brave? Sure. Smart? Not so much. I kept asking if you'd leave and you said you wouldn't. *I should have known. *I'm angry. I want to lash out at you. You might think my empathy is BS, but I feel deep and at this point I don't care if you believe me or not.

I have to pay someone to love me. How shameful. Jeff and I talked about how we are going to have to start sacrificing for me to stay in therapy. Our FSA card is almost depleted. Yeah, I know, just trust God. Do you realize how hard that is for me? Do you realize I still have no idea what I really believe? I'm going through the motions. Actually that's what I'm doing in life.

At least I can take my clients home or out in the community and have a "normal" therapeutic relationship with them.

She said this email was manipulative and "borderline". She cut me off for 3 weeks, then I emailed her and asked for another chance to email. She told me it was okay. I just emailed on occasion until last weekend, when I sent 3 emails on Saturday and one on Monday.

[unaluna]

it's all good!

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

H
She said this email was manipulative and "borderline". She cut me off for 3 weeks, .

Wow! This hurts. So you can't go all out and express your emotions? My T is hoping that all of my emotions show up. She says it's like gold for a therapist to be able to see all parts of us and it helps them better able to treat us. If we get punished for letting ourselves be seen the way we feel, boy, we'll keep stuff inside, won't we?

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Wow! This hurts. So you can't go all out and express your emotions? My T is hoping that all of my emotions show up. She says it's like gold for a therapist to be able to see all parts of us and it helps them better able to treat us. If we get punished for letting ourselves be seen the way we feel, boy, we'll keep stuff inside, won't we?

Yeah actually it does. That's why I think she's a bit too emotionally involved. It seemed as if she was genuinely hurt by that email.

She has said that she is trying to teach me what a "normal" relationship is like, with boundaries, mutual respect, etc.

Maybe I need to ask what she's trying to accomplish because at this point, I'm confused!

[Snuffleupagus]

Chopin, your post makes me think of two things from my childhood that I should probably tell my T about.

1) When I entered preschool, for the first two weeks I hung onto my grandma's leg and sat on her foot and screamed and cried, so she wouldn't leave me there. They had to pry me off every day. Pretty sure that's not a sign of secure attachment.

2) When I was small and walking through a parking lot with my mom, she would say, ”Hang onto mama's beltloop. These people like to hit little children.”

Maybe 1 and 2 are related, huh?

[Snuffleupagus]

To more directly respond to your post, though, I can totally relate to the constant religious messages about being bad and worthless and never enough. I think those do incalculable damage, especially since they were the one consistent msg I got from authority figures about who I was. Because, god knows, my parents messages were anything but consistent.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Yeah actually it does. That's why I think she's a bit too emotionally involved. It seemed as if she was genuinely hurt by that email.

She has said that she is trying to teach me what a "normal" relationship is like, with boundaries, mutual respect, etc.

Maybe I need to ask what she's trying to accomplish because at this point, I'm confused!

Can't she teach you without calling you names? One of the reasons I'm seeing a therapist now is because I had a close friend who was a T and she kept telling me bad things about myself. I was called manipulative, deceitful, loved playing the victim, untrustworthy and on and on and on. I believed her because she was a therapist. I got so confused that I literally was losing my mind.

My T now is extremely gentle and never labels me unless it's positive. I'm slowly gaining some sense of self-worth but it would never have gotten as far as it has if she had ever treated me the way your T treats you. I am very sensitive and skittish and would have hidden myself very deeply if I ever had have been punished for sharing my feelings. It took a while for trust to develop. I needed to see again and again that T accepted me - all parts of me - the positive and the not so good. I could never have handled such a cold response that your T has given.

It's like your T is hot sometimes and cold other times. How can you develop trust? How will you know what is a punishable offense? I give you credit for being able to continue on.

[critterlady]

Chopin, I'm sorry she cut you off over an email, especially with the comments she made. Most therapists really want emotions to come out, no matter what kind of emotions they are. Repercussions like that are not the way to encourage clients to emote.

Like Skysblue, my therapist is patiently waiting for and would be thrilled by any display of emotion from me. I'm too much in my head for his liking. I suspect even if I lashed out directly at him, he'd be cheering me on.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Can't she teach you without calling you names? One of the reasons I'm seeing a therapist now is because I had a close friend who was a T and she kept telling me bad things about myself. I was called manipulative, deceitful, loved playing the victim, untrustworthy and on and on and on. I believed her because she was a therapist. I got so confused that I literally was losing my mind.

My T now is extremely gentle and never labels me unless it's positive. I'm slowly gaining some sense of self-worth but it would never have gotten as far as it has if she had ever treated me the way your T treats you. I am very sensitive and skittish and would have hidden myself very deeply if I ever had have been punished for sharing my feelings. It took a while for trust to develop. I needed to see again and again that T accepted me - all parts of me - the positive and the not so good. I could never have handled such a cold response that your T has given.

It's like your T is hot sometimes and cold other times. How can you develop trust? How will you know what is a punishable offense? I give you credit for being able to continue on.

One thing you have to remember is that T's are human in and especially out of therapy. My T said once that she told a family member she couldn't help him that he just needed to turn himself into the authorities and go to jail. I can't imagine telling any relative of mine to do that!

I've told T I want her to be "real", maybe she took me TOO seriously!!

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

One thing you have to remember is that T's are human in and especially out of therapy. My T said once that she told a family member she couldn't help him that he just needed to turn himself into the authorities and go to jail. I can't imagine telling any relative of mine to do that!

I've told T I want her to be "real", maybe she took me TOO seriously!!

I disagree that therapists should bring themselves too much into the therapy relationship. They're there to help us - not to work out their own issues. Sure they're human but your T seems very confused about things as basic as boundary violations.

But the kicker for me is how she 'confessed' how she didn't feel comfortable about doing something for you (was it hugs, I can't remember) but did it for you anyways. And then realized it was a mistake.I think it's terrible for a T to say something like that.

[CantExplain]

Hi Chopin!

Your posts are really valuable. It's like seeing myself from the outside.

I'm getting triggered and overwhelmed, but I'm doing my best to keep up!

Take care.

I really admire you for these "processing" posts you've been doing-- they're well thought out and clearly you are doing a TON of work with all this. That's amazing.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by SarahMichelle

I really admire you for these "processing" posts you've been doing-- they're well thought out and clearly you are doing a TON of work with all this. That's amazing.

Want to hear the definition of the word "ironic"?

This is what T has wanted me to do all along. So all the criticism of T aside, she got me to start really working on my problems. Fear motivates me more than anything else. Money, ego, health, stability...pffft.

Fear. Gets me every single time.

[PreacherHeckler]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

So all the criticism of T aside, she got me to start really working on my problems.

Are you sure you're working on your problems... or are you actually working on hers?

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by PreacherHeckler

Are you sure you're working on your problems... or are you actually working on hers?

No...they are definitively my problems! Just because she might have issues with boundaries doesn't mean I didn't already have issues with boundaries.

I have never had boundaries of my own and I don't respect the boundaries of other's. Or if I did, it was out of fear...not respect.

I believe everything happens for a reason. All of this did. If it got me to focus more on myself than on my relationship with her, all the better.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

She said this email was manipulative and "borderline". She cut me off for 3 weeks.

I say she is judgemental and punitive, and I'm going to think badly of her for three weeks.

Originally Posted by Chopin99

No...they are definitively my problems! Just because she might have issues with boundaries doesn't mean I didn't already have issues with boundaries.

I have never had boundaries of my own and I don't respect the boundaries of other's. Or if I did, it was out of fear...not respect.

You really are doing some great processing and writing! Bravo!!!

Not to be devil's advocate, but based on what you've written it does appear that your T struggles with boundaries. You do as well (as do I!), BUT I think that Preacherheckler is onto something. How can you learn about good, healthy boundaries from someone who cannot model this for you? You and your T have localized boundaries as one of your core issues. Even if her boundaries might be healthier than yours comparatively, when learning something difficult like this (particularly not when we were supposed to--i.e., growing up from our parents) we need an extra good model for this. Do you feel that your T can model good boundaries for you?

[likelife]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Want to hear the definition of the word "ironic"?

This is what T has wanted me to do all along. So all the criticism of T aside, she got me to start really working on my problems. Fear motivates me more than anything else. Money, ego, health, stability...pffft.

Fear. Gets me every single time.

Fear about what? I've been following your posts, and think you're doing some great work. I wonder a little whether it feels like too much work?

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

I say she is judgemental and punitive, and I'm going to think badly of her for three weeks.

Okay...that made me laugh out loud.

Originally Posted by eastcoaster

You really are doing some great processing and writing! Bravo!!!

Not to be devil's advocate, but based on what you've written it does appear that your T struggles with boundaries. You do as well (as do I!), BUT I think that Preacherheckler is onto something. How can you learn about good, healthy boundaries from someone who cannot model this for you? You and your T have localized boundaries as one of your core issues. Even if her boundaries might be healthier than yours comparatively, when learning something difficult like this (particularly not when we were supposed to--i.e., growing up from our parents) we need an extra good model for this. Do you feel that your T can model good boundaries for you?

Well, you and PH are playing devil's advocate, which can be a good thing at times. Since October I have been unhealthily preoccupied with T herself and the relationship with T itself. Her behavior of late has effectively knocked her off the pedestal I unfairly placed her on. This has facilitated me to be more intensely focused on learning myself and my own boundaries. If her boundaries or behavior remains "off-kilter" and/or I don't feel she can help, I will remedy the situation.

That being said, I still believe wholeheartedly that everything happens for a reason. Before checking this thread, I was reading "Boundaries". The chapter I'm on is "The 10 Laws of Boundaries". I was reading about #6 (The Law of Evaluation). Basically it is talking about times you might have to "hurt someone to help them." It gave the example of a guy whose business partner was performing poorly. He didn't want to confront his partner because he was afraid it would hurt him. His T said, "It might hurt in the short term, but if he is unaware of his behavior, it will help him in the long run." The guy was confused, so the T gave this example:

When a dentist drills a cavity, does it hurt when he does it? Yes. Does it ultimately help you once the cavity is filled? Yes. When you eat and drink sugary foods and sodas, does it hurt? No, it feels good. In the long run, does it help you? Of course not...you get a cavity.

T has tried to drill two things into my head recently:
1. She is human and will make mistakes.
2. She always wants what is best for me.

So a part of me wonders if the whole thing is purposeful. Nothing else she has tried in an entire year has worked to get me to do this work. She once said it was as if I wanted healing, but didn't want to do any work or make any changes in my life to facilitate that healing. She is right. Scarily, exactly right.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by likelife

Fear about what? I've been following your posts, and think you're doing some great work. I wonder a little whether it feels like too much work?

Losing the relationship with T. I do feel I'm doing some good work right now...and it's about damn time I did!

It's not too much work. It's work I've needed to do for a year now. I've basically just messed around with T for the first six months, then focused unhealthily on T and my relationship with T for the last six months. So for the next six months, I want to focus on me and the hard changes I need to make.

[PreacherHeckler]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

No...they are definitively my problems! Just because she might have issues with boundaries doesn't mean I didn't already have issues with boundaries.

I have never had boundaries of my own and I don't respect the boundaries of other's. Or if I did, it was out of fear...not respect.

I believe everything happens for a reason. All of this did. If it got me to focus more on myself than on my relationship with her, all the better.

From my perspective you still seem to be doing this work out of fear, because you are afraid of losing the relationship with your therapist. I still see your focus as being primarily on the relationship -- on making sure you comply -- so that she doesn't refer you to another therapist.
Several years ago I had a therapist whose boundaries changed, and I was always the one who was blamed for not respecting those boundaries, and I tried very hard to comply because I didn't want to lose her. But the rules changed arbitrarily, and sometimes she broke her own rules "for my benefit" and other times one rule contradicted another, so if I followed one rule I was inadvertently breaking another. What you are doing reminds me very much of my own process when I desperately wanted to salvage the relationship. The problem is, it never worked because the therapist was the one who couldn't keep consistent boundaries, but somehow I was supposed to be able to respect those boundaries even as they kept changing.
You are working very hard, no doubt. But you'll never be on steady ground unless she stops shifting it beneath your feet.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by PreacherHeckler

From my perspective you still seem to be doing this work out of fear, because you are afraid of losing the relationship with your therapist. I still see your focus as being primarily on the relationship -- on making sure you comply -- so that she doesn't refer you to another therapist.
Several years ago I had a therapist whose boundaries changed, and I was always the one who was blamed for not respecting those boundaries, and I tried very hard to comply because I didn't want to lose her. But the rules changed arbitrarily, and sometimes she broke her own rules "for my benefit" and other times one rule contradicted another, so if I followed one rule I was inadvertently breaking another. What you are doing reminds me very much of my own process when I desperately wanted to salvage the relationship. The problem is, it never worked because the therapist was the one who couldn't keep consistent boundaries, but somehow I was supposed to be able to respect those boundaries even as they kept changing.
You are working very hard, no doubt. But you'll never be on steady ground unless she stops shifting it beneath your feet.

Thanks, PH. I see where you're coming from and it makes sense. The initial reason for starting all this processing was that fear. For the past couple of days, I've been doing it because I want to do it for ME and it's changed my perspective of things. That's why I'm going to initiate a conversation about boundaries Wednesday. It MUST be discussed before I go any further. If it continues, I know what I must do; it's not what I want to do, but I have to be prepared for that possibility. Like I keep saying; I believe everything happens for a reason. I'm starting to see that boundaries are like fences; they delineate "personal property" (what we will/will not do/put up with), and fences have gates. So mild flexibility in one's boundaries is okay, but as of late, T's boundaries seem to be comprised of rubber. It has to stop.