[tkdgirl]

So I had session today and T seems to keep bringing up a recurring theme of me thinking about everything in a very black and white sense. While T tries to suggest that stuff is more complex and in effect there are many different shades of grey involved.

One of the simplier examples of this is I was telling T how last week when I was in physiotherapy for my knee, I lost 10 degrees of flexion (this is a bad thing as the point of physio is to get back to full flexion in my knee). So the conversation sort of when like this: me - recovery for me knee was a bit rough last week, I lost 10 degrees of flexion, T - and how did that make you feel, me - like I failed, T - why, explain it to me, me - the point of physio is to improve my flexion, my degrees of flexion went down instead of up which is a bad thing, therefore I failed.

I know the above example is a bit crude but I would need like 2 pages to write out how the black and white thinking works with my relationship with my mom for example.

So I'm trying to understand in a more general sense how to think in shades of grey and how thinking in shades of grey is actually going to be useful (as this seems to be a thing my T is encouraging).

[likelife]

I actually think it's part of human nature to think in a black and white manner. Like it's built into language (this is part of the theory behind ACT therapy, which I don't purport to actually understand!). If I say hot, one of the first things that probably jumps to mind is cold. The trick (as I understand it), is to hold both the thing and its opposite (the black and the white) in mind at the same time, while avoiding being drawn directly toward either one.

So if the thought is that losing flexion = failure, a middle ground response might be that physiotherapy is a work in progress, that there is something incorrect about the exercises your therapist is recommending, etc. It's useful to think in shades of grey because it opens up possibilities. We become more able to respond, rather than react in a knee jerk fashion.

I'm not sure if I'm articulating this very well. Probably because it's more theoretical than practical for me at the moment!

[pbutton]

The most recent example from my own therapy:

My boss is ... he's just UGH. Trust me on this one.

However, he gave me a very nice review & raise. This was VERY hard for me to process because he's such a pig. T pointed out that not everything about nastyboss is bad. I want to think EVERYTHING the guy does is evil. But there are some positives to him. Barf.

Example for me xT was not very good and caused me a bunch of pain. Yet I can't hate her, I want to but I can't.... It's grey

[critterlady]

My problem is that I see everything as gray - there's very little that's clearly black and white for me.

It means that I struggle with almost everything. I have a hard time making decisions, since I weigh all the options, including ones I haven't thought of yet. It's hard.

Although, having said that, I recently went through physical therapy for a back problem. One week it was worse than the week before, despite my having done everything they'd told me to do. I was really disappointed. My PT reminded me that progress isn't a straight line. It goes up and down. It's gray.

[pachyderm]

Black and white versus lots of colors?

Grey never seemed all that attractive to me...

[carla.cdt]

what help me to "improve" my thinking in gray is that I identified my thought, usually negative to the black, then the extreme positive opposite, and then work my way through the middle. It took a bit of imaginations sometime to find some "gray" alternative. (i write them down, black at the bottom, with at the top, gray in the middle, from dark to light!) So when I had a few alternative, I pick one that fits best with the situation. It was quite an exercise, but it helped.
Hope I was able to explain it in a way it make sense!
Take care
Carla

[black or white]

So now you will all understand why I chose my username

I've always told my T that if I was to write a self help book I'd call it "embracing shades of gray"

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by likelife

I actually think it's part of human nature to think in a black and white manner. Like it's built into language (this is part of the theory behind ACT therapy, which I don't purport to actually understand!). If I say hot, one of the first things that probably jumps to mind is cold. The trick (as I understand it), is to hold both the thing and its opposite (the black and the white) in mind at the same time, while avoiding being drawn directly toward either one.

So if the thought is that losing flexion = failure, a middle ground response might be that physiotherapy is a work in progress, that there is something incorrect about the exercises your therapist is recommending, etc. It's useful to think in shades of grey because it opens up possibilities. We become more able to respond, rather than react in a knee jerk fashion.

I'm not sure if I'm articulating this very well. Probably because it's more theoretical than practical for me at the moment!

You actually did a really good job at explaining this, I think maybe even better than my T. The key seems to be thinking in grey allowing for there to be more possibilities. I think that is part of my problem right now, when something happens I only can see it one way and don't even think there are other explainations or reasons, its very cut and dry with me.

Originally Posted by pbutton

The most recent example from my own therapy:

My boss is ... he's just UGH. Trust me on this one.

However, he gave me a very nice review & raise. This was VERY hard for me to process because he's such a pig. T pointed out that not everything about nastyboss is bad. I want to think EVERYTHING the guy does is evil. But there are some positives to him. Barf.

Sorry pbutton but this just made me laugh.

Originally Posted by carla.cdt

what help me to "improve" my thinking in gray is that I identified my thought, usually negative to the black, then the extreme positive opposite, and then work my way through the middle. It took a bit of imaginations sometime to find some "gray" alternative. (i write them down, black at the bottom, with at the top, gray in the middle, from dark to light!) So when I had a few alternative, I pick one that fits best with the situation. It was quite an exercise, but it helped.
Hope I was able to explain it in a way it make sense!
Take care
Carla

This actually appears to be a real practical way to find grey and as hard as it may seem to do right now I think I might try your strategy. Thanks, I really like this suggestion.

Originally Posted by black or white

So now you will all understand why I chose my username

I've always told my T that if I was to write a self help book I'd call it "embracing shades of gray"

So have you actually figured out how to "embrace shaades of grey"?

[CantExplain]

SOME MUSINGS

For me, black-and-white thinking is a symptom, not something that can be worked on directly.

In a combat situation, B&W thinking has value. It could save your life. No time to wonder if the enemy has any redeeming features. Kill or be killed!
But a mind that thinks only in B&W is like a society living under martial law.

Firstly, it's an appalling waste of effort.
Secondly, it's no fun at all.
Somehow we need to stand down from red alert.

So I guess the conclusion is that B&W thinking is a form of anxiety.
Reduce the anxiety and the colours will come back.

That's what I'm hoping.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

SOME MUSINGS

For me, black-and-white thinking is a symptom, not something that can be worked on directly.

In a combat situation, B&W thinking has value. It could save your life. No time to wonder if the enemy has any redeeming features. Kill or be killed!
But a mind that thinks only in B&W is like a society living under martial law.

Firstly, it's an appalling waste of effort.
Secondly, it's no fun at all.
Somehow we need to stand down from red alert.

So I guess the conclusion is that B&W thinking is a form of anxiety.
Reduce the anxiety and the colours will come back.

That's what I'm hoping.

I have been musing and honestly I'm just not understanding. I'm confused how this is linked to anxiety. B&W thinking is very easy and comes naturally to me, I have a very rational and logical mind.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by tkdgirl

I have been musing and honestly I'm just not understanding. I'm confused how this is linked to anxiety. B&W thinking is very easy and comes naturally to me, I have a very rational and logical mind.

I guess I was just speculating in the hope that someone might find an idea there they could use.

[learning1]

I tend to think of various complications and what-if's, so I often have a hard time making a quick, clear, black and white decision.

In one way, I can see black and white thinking as anxiety related because it's like you have to make an immediate decision instead of relaxing and taking your time to consider all the possibilities. For example, one of my coworkers the other day got up and started announcing a new policy she was working on. To me, it was obvious that it would work a lot better if she took time to gather more feedback from the whole group. But she tends to be a very black and white, cut and dried thinker. Whenever questions start arising from people, she cuts it off and uses her loud voice to insist on her perspective of "the way things are." I think it's easier in her mind because she's anxious about taking the time for a conversation that would let everyone discuss and understand many possibilities. The discussion could lead to a policy that actually works well, but she's probably anxious it would take more effort to come up with a decision.

On the other hand, thinking of too many possibilities (shades of gray) can also be due to anxiety-- anxiety about finally making a decision. So I think either extreme can be a problem.

[sunrise]

tkdgirl, I think in many, many shades of grey. To tell the truth, it is not that great. It prevents me from making decisions efficiently. I've had this problem since childhood, actually. I am always considering all the possibilities, the pros and cons, the umpteen different scenarios, etc. I can see things from many people's points of view. I would like to be more of a black and white thinker. Maybe there is some sort of middle ground between many shades of grey and black/white. I don't really want to work on this problem in therapy, though. I've kind of grown accustomed to being like that and am able to exist with this trait in my personality. There are other things I'd like to change more. Tkdgirl, if having black/white thinking is causing problems for you, then it seems worthwhile to try to change.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by learning1

I tend to think of various complications and what-if's, so I often have a hard time making a quick, clear, black and white decision.

In one way, I can see black and white thinking as anxiety related because it's like you have to make an immediate decision instead of relaxing and taking your time to consider all the possibilities. For example, one of my coworkers the other day got up and started announcing a new policy she was working on. To me, it was obvious that it would work a lot better if she took time to gather more feedback from the whole group. But she tends to be a very black and white, cut and dried thinker. Whenever questions start arising from people, she cuts it off and uses her loud voice to insist on her perspective of "the way things are." I think it's easier in her mind because she's anxious about taking the time for a conversation that would let everyone discuss and understand many possibilities. The discussion could lead to a policy that actually works well, but she's probably anxious it would take more effort to come up with a decision.

On the other hand, thinking of too many possibilities (shades of gray) can also be due to anxiety-- anxiety about finally making a decision. So I think either extreme can be a problem.

I think black and white thinking and black and white decision making is different. I take different factors into consideration when making decisions and do weight the pros and cons of decisions. I guess once I make a decision or see something a certain way its hard for me to see other possibilities. Thanks for explaining how this might relate to anxiety and I tend to agree extremes are usually not a good thing.

I get how anxiety would be involved.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by sunrise

tkdgirl, I think in many, many shades of grey. To tell the truth, it is not that great. It prevents me from making decisions efficiently. I've had this problem since childhood, actually. I am always considering all the possibilities, the pros and cons, the umpteen different scenarios, etc. I can see things from many people's points of view. I would like to be more of a black and white thinker. Maybe there is some sort of middle ground between many shades of grey and black/white. I don't really want to work on this problem in therapy, though. I've kind of grown accustomed to being like that and am able to exist with this trait in my personality. There are other things I'd like to change more. Tkdgirl, if having black/white thinking is causing problems for you, then it seems worthwhile to try to change.

I didn't necessarily even know I was a black and white thinker or think it was a problem until T made a few comments in my last couple of sessions and seemed to imply my black and white thinking is a bad thing or might be causing problems. Example: T -wow you really do see everything in B&W, stuff might be a lot more complicated than you think. There could be other factors going on with this person that might explain their behaviours and actions.

Everyones comments have been very helpful and I think I need more time to sit and think about this and its potential impact and whether it is an issue or not and what I want to do about it.

[Perna]

For me, I'd start with how it seems you feel your body is under "your" control such that losing flexion = failure on your part. Your head only gets to be in charge of head stuff, not body stuff; that's like deciding your head is in charge of your thoughts or emotions; good luck with that?

Disease processes can have our input but excess weight, for example, is not just the equation of too many calories in and too little exercise out. There's all sorts of other things (shades of gray) that can go wrong between the mouth and the added pounds or missing a trip to the gym.

Notice this company's use of the plural, "therapeutics":

http://www.flexiontherapeutics.com/

There is no all or nothing to them about your knee? And they are totally discounting you or your knee! They are acting like they are in charge of whether you get flexion or not Do they feel they can fail?

Thinking in shades of gray versus all/nothing, success/failure allows for there to be other pieces of the puzzle; you don't just have puzzle apart/puzzle complete? You cannot have a process if you don't have the shades of gray. You are in New York and then you are in San Francisco but there's no Chicago and it might have been Chicago that would help you? I use "school" to help me see it; how when you are in first grade, worrying about graduating from high school makes no sense yet? A black and white picture is merely a silhouette, you don't get many useful features, can't pick out the person in a line up

[Sannah]

I have always wondered about this too. I agree that it can be related to anxiety because the unknown doesn't feel good when you are anxious, so definite answers are more comforting. I have actually reached the gray without even working on this specific problem but I did work on the anxiety. So decreasing my anxiety might have fixed this issue?? The last thing that I have worked on was my attachment which really improved things for me.

I would work on each black/white issue as it comes up. If you can see the gray in each issue the practice might get you somewhere?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Sannah

I have always wondered about this too. I agree that it can be related to anxiety because the unknown doesn't feel good when you are anxious, so definite answers are more comforting. I have actually reached the gray without even working on this specific problem but I did work on the anxiety. So decreasing my anxiety might have fixed this issue?? The last thing that I have worked on was my attachment which really improved things for me.

I would work on each black/white issue as it comes up. If you can see the gray in each issue the practice might get you somewhere?

This sounds right. Like with triggers, it's probably a good idea to attack B&W from both sides:

1. Try to find out where it comes from and cut it off at the source.
2. Recognise when it happens and try to find a more rational point of view.

[Sannah]

Thought about this more today and I remembered that my black and white thinking had strong emotions attached to them so maybe also our strong emotions push us to the extremes? With my work I have tempered my strong emotions so maybe this is what brought the gray to me also??