T and growing up

Great points!
I do email my T. Of course I asked her if it is okay prior to doing do. I know there needs to be boundaries in place so I do my best to respect them. At the end of the day, if our T's are okay about emailing, texting, phone calls, or whatever then great...if not, then we need to be resolved with it or perhaps look elsewhere for a therapist. But I'm with you!!

I agree. I think it is a boundary issue.
Rainbow (and maybe others) email their T's as a way to force their presence into the T's life. T reads my email, T thinks about me. It really has little to do with whether T responds or not, it has to do with the perhaps unconscious feeling/belief that T is thinking about me when I send emails.

Perhaps T does not read them. Perhaps T reads the first line.
If you don't receive a thought-out response, you do not know what "reading" really is. But that is not the point, because it provides an opportunity for clients to say "T, I'm here!"

I can't speak for rainbow or others, but I learn a lot about myself through the email interchange with my therapist. Her responses are well thought out. She has told me, even when I am not in her presence she thinks about me, and I am in her heart. I feel her presence at all times now. She is feeling me up - internal adult attachment figure. I'm lucky I guess. The tantrum was to avoid the last big hurdle in therapy.

Anyway,here is one of her emails:

"This is not good, but you already know that. I find myself wondering if this is like Kiddo - on the computer playing games when he needed to be doing homework and getting sleep. He couldn't make himself get off the distractions and focus on what he needed to do to succeed (I still think part of that was tied to being afraid to leave you - although I'm now wondering if that fear wasn't 2-part, afraid something would happen to you if he wasn't there to care for you, and afraid something would happen to him if he were on his own). You have some very important things to think about and resolve - can't do that as long as the forum is distracting you, and we also know you have trouble functioning optimally when you don't take care of FBS (Fasting Blood Sugar).

Maybe the connection between FBS and the forum is that the forum provides the necessary distraction to keep you from focusing on the things that would move you to into accepting your physical being, and taking care of FBS means accepting that you have a physical being (that needs you to take care of it).

Just got your vm to cancel today and Saturday. What is happening?

You have value, you have worth, you are enough."

***My thought's: Priceless! unfortunately, my tantrum is more like sabotage to me. Being free of drama is scary for me. It's a whole new life. We discussed this today. And, she says, "it's okay. We can get through this. You've unhooked before."

##Rainbow, it sounds like you and your therapist are doing well. It makes my heart smile to see how much insight you have.

I see this issue of out of session contact much as ultramar does. I would add that how we see this--and T's boundaries about it--is very much tied to the state of therapy.

I'm not so sure of the validity of the argument that T's can ignore any communication; in the event that a client communicated a serious intent to harm, and the T ignored the communication, I think it could result in a problem for the T as well as the client.

I think there is an issue of respecting the work and the therapy frame, whatever form it takes: everything in one's life is not of equal import. Yet there are individuals who have difficulty accepting that reality, and it is reflected in many behaviors, including communication. While it is ultimately up to the T to monitor the process and establish policies that reflect the client's process, it is also a sign of growth when clients can begin to assume some of that regulation for themselves.

I think there's potentially a lot of truth in this for a lot of people. Consciously, I don't think this is the case for me. Unconsciously? It probably is, even though he's made it very clear that, if I email him, he may not read it for a while, and he only writes very brief replies, so consciously I know it's not actually a connection to him.

I think I started emailing stuff out of sessions because I was just kind of exploding everywhere. And in some cases I have emailed him when I am mad at him, as I currently find it hard to say this in person (I freak out and dissociate, so it's a work in progress).

Sometimes I don't email between sessions, sometimes I send one or two during the week. They either relate to our therapy sessions, memories, difficult things I want to tell him, or the odd dream. I do try to keep this stuff for the session, but sometimes it just kind of boils over.

Would anyone disclose a serious intent to harm themselves if they knew the email might not be read? What would be the point?

The one time I was really in crisis, I didn't email my T. I phoned, as I knew he would pick up his voicemail.

That makes perfect sense to me.

Would anyone disclose a serious intent to harm themselves if they knew the email might not be read? What would be the point?

Unstable clients do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons, but the consequences to the T would be the same.

Would the uproar and rush to defend a group who is completely able to handle their own business, be the same if the client mailed (not email) things to the therapist? I will start a thread on this.

That's such an interesting question. I'm going to save my response for your new thread, Stopdog.

I sometimes email things so I won't delete them - if I save them for the session I may talk myself out of it, as happened this week.

To explain myself, stopdog, for me, it is not about defending the therapist. I am struggling to understand the attitude behind what appears to me to be an imposition on another human being. As you know, my mother has serious boundary issues, so I am trying to explore the mindset behind others who appear to have similar issues but are working on them. I have thought in the past there might be some value to both parties from my explaining how it feels when someone is (it appears to me) pushing boundaries or continuing to do something that perpetuates poor behavior (in my opinion), while listening to the other person explain or justify their boundary pushing behavior.

I totally understand rainbow's point that her T allows this contact and behavior. My point to her in the past (and to some extent my point remains) is that normal people, in normal interactions, want their boundaries respected, and that perhaps, even if her T allows the contact, it would be a good learning experience to respect what others might consider more normal boundaries. Rainbow (it appears to me), is working on that in steps, and I can respect that. I also understand that the point of this thread was about nostalgia for a time when she had less respect for boundaries, and while that doesn't make sense to me really, I do apologize for going off topic. It was genuinely an attempt to understand another point of view.

So, it's about trying to express a point of view about what I would consider normal or respectful boundaries for other people and trying to understand the other side. It's not about defending anyone or attacking anyone. I was trying to phrase my questions and points respectfully.

I am also not trying to attack anyone. I realize that rainbow and I have diametrically differing points of view on this topic. I am attempting to understand her point of view so that I can hopefully bring my own feelings more towards the center of the curve.

The reason I read this board is to try to learn from others. I do not want to simply state my stance and defend my right to have it. I need to be open to changing the way I view things. We all do. We're entitled to be where we are at right now, but therapy is about changing patterns. Change can only come from viewing things from new angles. We need to try on new hats and see what happens. I am trying to put on rainbow's hat. But I have a big head and right now it does not fit.

I just want to say that I respect everyone's viewpoint and I think we can "agree to disagree". When I started this thread, it was in response to another poster receiving an email from her T, and I thought of others I know who also get responses. It made me nostalgic, as I said, for the first year or so when my T did answer my emails in detail and I thought life was wonderful! My Mom used to answer letters like that--she never missed anything, and it meant a lot to me that my T did it too.

My T and I had to work out what was best for me. When I told her that I was getting upset by some of her answers; they were hurting me, not helping, we mutually decided, first, that she would answer me briefly and not specifically about anything I brought up about therapy. That worked for awhile, but eventually she and I agreed that it was best for me if she didn't answer me at all.

I tried not emailing her, and then went back to doing it because there wasn't any change in how I felt about her. It wasn't affecting me negatively to "get it all out". She agreed. I don't understand how this could be considered crossing her boundaries when we have carefully worked it out so that it is helpful to me, and not detrimental to my therapy.

I don't understand why emailing a T if she is okay with it can be considered crossing boundaries. But I don't start these threads to cause fighting and controversy. In light of what happened in Boston yesterday, my wish is that we all listen politely to each other, respond in a thoughtful manner, and respect the diversity of our journeys.

Isn't offering unsolicited advice a form of not respecting boundaries? It seems that rainbow's boundaries with her T are "normal," because they are negotiated between the two of them. Who ends up being the arbiter of "normal"?

I'm trying to figure out a way to say this that is respectful, because I don't intend any disrespect. And maybe I'm even implicitly offering unsolicited advice to not give advice! Hm.

I think there may be a difference between responding to a thread on a message board & randomly giving out advice to someone who has not even approached the topic.

For example, right now I'd love to go tell my co-worker to invest in shirts that aren't so freaking low-cut. However, unless she starts a conversation about shirt-shopping, I will keep my big mouth shut.

I totally agree. I am often surprised when posters, whether they are the original OP or not, suggest that writing a response that is not what they want to hear is somehow inappropriate. I mean, you write it down, I respond to it. I don't have a clue what you want to hear, but I presume that you are at least willing to hear what I say, even if you reject it by telling me or not, by the fact that you post on a public message board. It's not as if I am overhearing a conversation and injecting my viewpoint, and it's not as if I create my own thread to tell you what I want you to hear.

I suppose this board is large enough that there is room for all kinds of preferences (and that is at least partly why the ignore function exists), but I think that I'm more comfortable erring on the side of responding when the person may not want to hear it versus silencing myself and not responding. I've already done the later, a gazillion times over. I'm sure that I overcorrect too often, but at least the movement is in general in the direction I want to go.

Heh, good point

I should clarify that to me, the unsolicited advice is implied, not explicitly stated. And perhaps that's my own baggage. I'm definitely willing to own that. My MIL's unsolicited advice drives me bonkers.

I don't disagree. There's nothing inappropriate about dissenting opinions. I think they're pretty important in offering alternatives for moving in a different direction. I think I bristle (and again, this is my stuff) when there is an implication that there is a "normal" (vs. an unstated, but implied "abnormal") way to go about things. It's possible to offer alternatives without adding judgment into the mix. I think.

One more observation, then I think it's probably a good idea for me to duck out of here for a bit (so that I can get some work done!): I find it interesting that I'm nervous as hell about putting my own dissenting opinion out there.

Ohhh, I feel for you. I used to have a MIL like that. I think that finally being rid of her was one of the first happy thoughts that crossed my mind as I left divorce court.

I like you, likelife, so I hope you hear what I have to say as NOT a criticism -- I just find it interesting that you say that putting a dissenting opinion out there makes you super anxious, because it just might be the case that the voice in your head that tells you not to dissent or push too hard or offer unsolicited advice is making itself heard when when you read what another person writes as being too hard or unsolicited. This is purely for offering perspective, not to say that anyone here has done anything wrong. I don't think anyone has, it's just that we all come from very different places, and it's not just our perspectives that get colored by our experiences, but how we interpret the words of others.

ETA: and Rainbow, I'm glad your nostalgia is not getting in the way of the good feelings you have about relating to T now. I'm another person who can't quite relate to the nostalgia itself, but I *can* relate to feeling like I'm at a new level of acceptance about my relationship with T, and I'm just hoping you can keep riding that wave.

Maybe you're having trouble understanding it because you are looking at it from the perspective of a normal, reciprocal relationship between 2 people. Under those circumstances, I would agree with you -- normal people, in normal interactions, want their boundaries respected. But in my relationship with my therapist, it wasn't an imposition for him at all when I frantically sent him a dozen emails in less than 5 minutes. That was why he had an email address for work and a separate one for home. I WAS respecting his boundaries by not emailing him at home. On the few occasions when I did email him at home he clearly and firmly let me know that he would not tolerate that behavior. However, he did not have the same set of boundaries for his email at work. In that situation, he set his own limits on what he could read and respond to, but I was free to send as many as I wanted or needed to send. So maybe, what seems like an imposition or disrespect of boundaries to you only appears that way because you're looking at it in the context of a different kind of relationship -- a normal interaction with normal people -- instead of seeing it in the context of a therapy relationship where the therapist is responsible for setting his own limits on what is and isn't considered respectful.

I've enjoyed reading your opinions and have agreed with you.

I drew the line at her insistence that H and I needed to "train" our first born to be right handed.

Thanks for this, Sally. I think you're absolutely right (I'm not going to take a dissenting position on your opinion ). I was very much raised to defer to others' opinions and that voice in my head, as you put it, isn't always the voice of reason. I appreciate your input.

I can generally understand asking someone a question about what the poster is feeling or doing, or why etc. This can be done in a caring and supportive way, or a judgmental way.

My experience is that questions can be helpful. Judgments just make me walk away, and oftentimes hit a tender part that needs to heal before continuing.