[Patoman04]

This topic has been on my mind for a while now and I was wondering what you all thought about it. We all know T's have their own set of morals by which they live by. For some it could be just the basic morals of human nature while others may have profound morals based on religion or just conscience. My question is, do you ever wonder what T has to go through with clients who do not share the same moral values as them? I feel like this is exactly what is happening between me and my T at the moment. For me it is incredibly difficult. I was born and raised catholic and conservative. My T has a similar christian background, but seems to act more lenient when it comes to morals and beliefs. We have disagreed on various topics in the past which obviously is not uncommon, but what happens to a T when they come across a topic that is so far in contrast to their own morals? This seems like it would make the life of the T really hard. For example, maybe the client believes that robbing a bank, per se, is a noble act and wants advice on how to do it better. Now obviously that would never happen, but if it did, what would the T do? Would he/she voice their own opinion and try to teach that the action is wrong or would they be forced to go along with it and help the client, despite it being against what they believe in. We live in a society today where acceptable behaviors and very unclear as a whole and I could see a T struggling with this a lot over topics like abortion. What would you do as a T? I am just curious. Ty for responses!

[ilikedesifem]

er.. well T's don't get society, so it's moot.

But then if a client expresses to do something illegal, or contravening common morality or that causes harm to others, then s/he has a duty to report it. this is per their supposed "ethical standards".

I think if a therapist should accept his or her client's beliefs and values, provided they are not pathologies or causing harm to others.

[healed84]

I think when a client is struggling with forming their own ideas in regards to morals, or struggling with a moral decision, it is T's job to stay as natural as possible. They should not have opinion if it is right or wrong, unless it is harmful to the client's life, somebody's life or truly against the law.

There is a difference to voice concerns about a client doing something that is against the law rather than against with the T personal believes.

[ilikedesifem]

Originally Posted by healed84

I think when a client is struggling with forming their own ideas in regards to morals, or struggling with a moral decision, it is T's job to stay as natural as possible. They should not have opinion if it is right or wrong, unless it is harmful to the client's life, somebody's life or truly against the law.

There is a difference to voice concerns about a client doing something that is against the law rather than against with the T personal believes.

I would agree. Though most therapists don't adhere to this dictate, but there you go...

[QUOTE=Patoman04;3470164]This topic has been on my mind for a while now and I was wondering what you all thought about it. We all know T's have their own set of morals by which they live by. For some it could be just the basic morals of human nature while others may have profound morals based on religion or just conscience. My question is, do you ever wonder what T has to go through with clients who do not share the same moral values as them? I feel like this is exactly what is happening between me and my T at the moment. For me it is incredibly difficult. I was born and raised catholic and conservative. My T has a similar christian background, but seems to act more lenient when it comes to morals and beliefs. We have disagreed on various topics in the past which obviously is not uncommon, but what happens to a T when they come across a topic that is so far in contrast to their own morals? This seems like it would make the life of the T really hard. For example, maybe the client believes that robbing a bank, per se, is a noble act and wants advice on how to do it better. Now obviously that would never happen, but if it did, what would the T do? Would he/she voice their own opinion and try to teach that the action is wrong or would they be forced to go along with it and help the client, despite it being against what they believe in. We live in a society today where acceptable behaviors and very unclear as a whole and I could see a T struggling with this a lot over topics like abortion. What would you do as a T? I am just curious. Ty

[A Red Panda]

If what the client is wanting is harmful to themselves, others, or is going to be breaking the law, then it would be the Ts job to help them learn how to not do those things (and, in the case of harm, to take action to prevent it).

If it's the case of just morals and opinions, then the T should be supportive and only offer their own opinion if the client wants it or if it would be beneficial for them to hear another perspective.

[someone321]

Oooo wow, I have no clue what they should do then... I guess that if I planned something dangerous or illegal, T would report me, that's the rule, right? But if it was only "unmoral" but not dangerous? I think my T would ask me why I would like to do that, why I think it's okay... If I was a T, I would not argue with the client, everyone is different (see all these discussions about the abortion or euthanasia) and the point is to understand why something is unmoral for me while for another person it's absolutely okay... I think that there is no good response and no one can be really sure that his point of view is more correct than others...

Originally Posted by Patoman04

This topic has been on my mind for a while now and I was wondering what you all thought about it. We all know T's have their own set of morals by which they live by. For some it could be just the basic morals of human nature while others may have profound morals based on religion or just conscience. My question is, do you ever wonder what T has to go through with clients who do not share the same moral values as them? I feel like this is exactly what is happening between me and my T at the moment. For me it is incredibly difficult. I was born and raised catholic and conservative. My T has a similar christian background, but seems to act more lenient when it comes to morals and beliefs. We have disagreed on various topics in the past which obviously is not uncommon, but what happens to a T when they come across a topic that is so far in contrast to their own morals? This seems like it would make the life of the T really hard. For example, maybe the client believes that robbing a bank, per se, is a noble act and wants advice on how to do it better. Now obviously that would never happen, but if it did, what would the T do? Would he/she voice their own opinion and try to teach that the action is wrong or would they be forced to go along with it and help the client, despite it being against what they believe in. We live in a society today where acceptable behaviors and very unclear as a whole and I could see a T struggling with this a lot over topics like abortion. What would you do as a T? I am just curious. Ty for responses!

I'd learn from them. Learn what society has drilled into us versus what we really choose to live by ourselves, free from artificial input.

[ilikedesifem]

As for acceptable behaviours in modern society, I don't agree.

I think early 21st century morals are thus:

- Does it hurt others?
- Does it undermine others established rights and responsibilities?

if not, then do it. anything goes.

You'd probably say that abortion may hurt the fetus, however the entire crux of the issue is if the fetus is alive or not.

[Lauliza]

If a client has desires or beliefs that are against the law then the T in no way has to, or should, agree with them. They don't have to report a client for having "bad" desires (like a T who treats criminals) but they do have to report someone who has expressed plans to ACT on those desires. That's part if the training since more often than not Ts have clients who's belief system is very different than their own. Some Ts will refer certain clients out who have beliefs or traits that they just can't get past.
This is part of the reason Ts keep their personal beliefs to themselves too, since it can happen in the reverse. A t might believe in something totally legal but against your personal belief system. If a client finds out it can change the whole dynamic for the worse.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ilikedesifem]

Originally Posted by someone321

Oooo wow, I have no clue what they should do then... I guess that if I planned something dangerous or illegal, T would report me, that's the rule, right? But if it was only "unmoral" but not dangerous? I think my T would ask me why I would like to do that, why I think it's okay... If I was a T, I would not argue with the client, everyone is different (see all these discussions about the abortion or euthanasia) and the point is to understand why something is unmoral for me while for another person it's absolutely okay... I think that there is no good response and no one can be really sure that his point of view is more correct than others...

er.. yes. maybe you subscribe to anarchy but normal people don't even though morals don't exist, there are common values in every society. thought if you claim to be so learned you would comprehend this already...

[elliemay]

I think therapy is a place where we get to decide our own morals. The therapist's morals should not come into play.

Obviously, when it comes to things that could harm the client or others, the therapist has a duty to intervene, or at least offer a different perspective.

Conversely, I do not think the client should try to impose their morals on the therapist. In fact, therapy is a place to examine long held beliefs and if those beliefs are contributing to the quality of your life.

Obviously I am not big on moralism. I think it's all relative. I'm just not into absolute anything.

[ilikedesifem]

OK, so therapists don't do this... or is that just wishful thinking now?

[Patoman04]

Originally Posted by amee200

If a client has desires or beliefs that are against the law then the T in no way has to, or should, agree with them. They don't have to report a client for having "bad" desires (like a T who treats a pedophile) but they do have to report someone who has expressed plans to ACT on those desires. That's part if the training since more often than not Ts have clients who's belief system is very different than their own. Some Ts will refer certain clients out who have beliefs or traits that they just can't get past.
This is part of the reason Ts keep their personal beliefs to themselves too, since it can happen in the reverse. A t might believe in something totally legal but against your personal belief system. If a client finds out it can change the whole dynamic for the worse.

Tapatalk

I think this is more what I may have been getting at. I think the issue for me is that I have a certain set of morals that T does not share and she is teaching against my own beliefs. I know she doesn't mean to, but it creates problems for the whole relationship. At this point I am not sure what to do because my T is so incredibly important to me and I love her to death. I am not willing to go through finding another T because I know I will never find one that is as helpful as her on most issues I have. What do you guys think I should do? I can't just give up my own beliefs, but I also am in no position to correct what she is telling me. I am quite confused at this point :P

Originally Posted by someone321

Oooo wow, I have no clue what they should do then... I guess that if I planned something dangerous or illegal, T would report me, that's the rule, right? But if it was only "unmoral" but not dangerous? I think my T would ask me why I would like to do that, why I think it's okay... If I was a T, I would not argue with the client, everyone is different (see all these discussions about the abortion or euthanasia) and the point is to understand why something is unmoral for me while for another person it's absolutely okay... I think that there is no good response and no one can be really sure that his point of view is more correct than others...

Absolutely. That's pretty much what therapy is supposed to be about - letting the client understand what is going on. That would usually lead to a greater understanding of other people's points of view, I would imagine. Some therapists do therapy based on, for instance, a particular religious POV, and for some clients that is the ideal kind of therapy, but the majority of therapists are presumably supposed to be neutral in terms of values and morals. A T is supposed to help the client discover what is that client's morality and values. I'm sure that many Ts encounter clients who are just so different in terms of their morality that they find it difficult to work with them. The professional thing to do then would be to refer them to somebody else. All Ts are not that professional, but it is to be hoped that most would be.

I sometimes wonder what it must be like to be a treatment provider in prison, doing therapy with criminals who have committed atrocious acts. That must really take it out of the T, unless they disconnect their own selves completely.

[A Red Panda]

Not knowing what the subject of disagreement is, I am finding this a hard response to write.

Is there a way that you and your T can just not talk about whatever that issue is? Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree, and you need to remind your T of that. If she's using her opinion as a way to teach/show you how other people may view things.. like if you're having difficulty relating to others due to your differing opinion, then it might be useful.

I'll give an example because I'm not sure if I am making sense?

Client, is alright with cheating on their spouse and doesn't like that their spouse is wanting divorce because they were caught once.
Therapist, is personally completely against cheating.

The T in that situation may choose to share their opinion on cheating as a way to help the Client see why their spouse is angry and upset. The Client may get angry and upset with the T and feel like the T isn't on their side, but the T is actually just trying to help the Client see another perspective that is contributing to a problem the Client is facing.

Is there a chance that it's a situation like that - that your T is sharing their opinion to try and help you with a problem that you're having based around your beliefs? If not, then I guess I can't imagine why it even needs to be discussed?

[ilikedesifem]

Originally Posted by Mastodon

Absolutely. That's pretty much what therapy is supposed to be about - letting the client understand what is going on. That would usually lead to a greater understanding of other people's points of view, I would imagine. Some therapists do therapy based on, for instance, a particular religious POV, and for some clients that is the ideal kind of therapy, but the majority of therapists are presumably supposed to be neutral in terms of values and morals. A T is supposed to help the client discover what is that client's morality and values. I'm sure that many Ts encounter clients who are just so different in terms of their morality that they find it difficult to work with them. The professional thing to do then would be to refer them to somebody else. All Ts are not that professional, but it is to be hoped that most would be.

I sometimes wonder what it must be like to be a treatment provider in prison, doing therapy with criminals who have committed atrocious acts. That must really take it out of the T, unless they disconnect their own selves completely.

What makes you sure therapists are that professional?

[Patoman04]

Originally Posted by Mastodon

I sometimes wonder what it must be like to be a treatment provider in prison, doing therapy with criminals who have committed atrocious acts. That must really take it out of the T, unless they disconnect their own selves completely.

Oh lord! I couldn't even IMAGINE what that would be like O_o

[Patoman04]

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

Not knowing what the subject of disagreement is, I am finding this a hard response to write.

Is there a way that you and your T can just not talk about whatever that issue is? Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree, and you need to remind your T of that. If she's using her opinion as a way to teach/show you how other people may view things.. like if you're having difficulty relating to others due to your differing opinion, then it might be useful.

I'll give an example because I'm not sure if I am making sense?

Client, is alright with cheating on their spouse and doesn't like that their spouse is wanting divorce because they were caught once.
Therapist, is personally completely against cheating.

The T in that situation may choose to share their opinion on cheating as a way to help the Client see why their spouse is angry and upset. The Client may get angry and upset with the T and feel like the T isn't on their side, but the T is actually just trying to help the Client see another perspective that is contributing to a problem the Client is facing.

Is there a chance that it's a situation like that - that your T is sharing their opinion to try and help you with a problem that you're having based around your beliefs? If not, then I guess I can't imagine why it even needs to be discussed?

Ok this is difficult to talk about, but my issue relies with masturbation. In my faith it is look at as a bad thing. I brought up the topic because I struggle with it and I wanted help stopping the bad habit. My initial goal was to become completely abstinent from it, but its becoming very difficult to stop, especially now that T says that it is natural and OK. That is fine for her to say, but for me it stirs up my entire world and leaves me frustrated and confused. Unfortunately, due to the dynamics of the religion, this is an issue that I cannot hold out on. Just not sure what to do at this point.

[A Red Panda]

I can see how that is a struggle for you! When you attend religious events, have they talked about how it is wrong? (I'm not religious in any manner btw). Perhaps your T is trying to help you not feel so guilty over it because it is causing you a great deal of anguish. In your religion, can you ask for forgiveness? Can you speak to a religious leader about the struggle you are having? (I fully get that that may not be possible, but maybe it is and you are just not comfortable with that?). Is there perhaps a forum where you would be able to find others who are struggling with the same issue?

Perhaps you might want to try and talk to a T with a specialization in addictions about this issue for you. If you really wish to be totally abstinent, then I am sure that someone who works with addictions would be able to help you find ways to stop (and help you to forgive yourself). I do not think that you are addicted, and I personally do not find masturbation to be anything but natural, but if it is causing you such distress and you wish to stop, treating it like an addiction may help.

ETA: Thank you for being willing to share, I am sure that it was very hard to do!

[Patoman04]

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

I can see how that is a struggle for you! When you attend religious events, have they talked about how it is wrong? (I'm not religious in any manner btw). Perhaps your T is trying to help you not feel so guilty over it because it is causing you a great deal of anguish. In your religion, can you ask for forgiveness? Can you speak to a religious leader about the struggle you are having? (I fully get that that may not be possible, but maybe it is and you are just not comfortable with that?). Is there perhaps a forum where you would be able to find others who are struggling with the same issue?

Perhaps you might want to try and talk to a T with a specialization in addictions about this issue for you. If you really wish to be totally abstinent, then I am sure that someone who works with addictions would be able to help you find ways to stop (and help you to forgive yourself). I do not think that you are addicted, and I personally do not find masturbation to be anything but natural, but if it is causing you such distress and you wish to stop, treating it like an addiction may help.

ETA: Thank you for being willing to share, I am sure that it was very hard to do!

Ty for your response! The problem I face in the religion is when you try to talk to someone like a pastor, they have no idea what the anguish feels like because 99% of the time they do not struggle with this. There is no way for them to relate. I can ask for forgiveness, and I do, but it never does anything to fix my issue. It doesn't help that I am the kind of person that is so very conscious of my mistakes. I kick myself when I am down and tell myself how I am worthless. I know that is irrational thinking and it is yet another issue I am working on. There are just no resources in the religion which really pisses me off and makes me question at times if I should stick with the religion. And when you ask someone like a pastor, they seem to think that we are magically supposed to be able to stop with our vices and be perfect. It can make me so mad at times. This is why I am turning to T. I don't know where else I CAN turn. I respect her morals, but I feel like it clouds her ability to help me in a similar way to the pastors in the religion. The whole topic makes me sick to my stomach to talk to her about in the first place and when you add the fact that I'm not sure she knows how to help me with it, it just makes a mess of sessions. I wish I could go to another T, but living in a small midwestern town, there aren't options. I also said before that this T is almost perfect for me in every other way. Oh my goodness I am so confused!

[A Red Panda]

I bet that more of your religious leaders do the same thing and are just not willing to talk about it (for many different reasons I'm sure!).

Have you asked her what her experience is with dealing with addictions? Perhaps it would be easier for both of you if you tried treating it that way. I don't know what's in the sexual addictions part of the forum but perhaps they can help you a bit?

[Patoman04]

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

I bet that more of your religious leaders do the same thing and are just not willing to talk about it (for many different reasons I'm sure!).

Have you asked her what her experience is with dealing with addictions? Perhaps it would be easier for both of you if you tried treating it that way. I don't know what's in the sexual addictions part of the forum but perhaps they can help you a bit?

I will have to talk to her about it next time. Unfortunately she got the flu and I haven't been able to see her for a month. She is going to be out for another month too and its killing me!!!!! 2 months without much needed therapy is torture especially since I haven't missed a week in the last year. I will look around the forums and hopefully I will find some resources.

[A Red Panda]

I think a lot of the time people get encouraged to excercise more to help with sexual frustrations? Have you heard of that or tried it?

[Patoman04]

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

I think a lot of the time people get encouraged to excercise more to help with sexual frustrations? Have you heard of that or tried it?

Oh my, I work out 3-5 hours a day and eat nothing but organic foods. I am a fitness nut and I love running, skiing and various other individual sports. It is a good distraction from the frustrations, but in the end, the exercise has to end and I am stuck with the temptations for the rest of the night. Its kinda funny because at one point I tried to work out until I fell asleep so I wouldn't have to worry about the frustrations, but it turns out, the more you work out, the more energy you get. Not to mention it boosts your sex drive like no other!