[growlithing]

So a little over two years ago, a major mother figure in my life died of cancer. She was the assistant principal of my middle school and she really looked after me throughout that really tough time in my life. She'd talk to me all the time, eat lunch with me, make me feel cared for etc. She was really important to me.

I mentioned her today in therapy with my school T because I was talking about my anxiety concerning time and had said something like I wish I had 30 mins back to spend with her. Now school T is either Christian or Jewish which is fine... except when we try to talk about this. She tries to then talk to me about what my assistant principal was doing now and then told me I am too eager to adopt the idea that when people abandon me, they are gone forever. Maybe that is true, but this is different. She didn't abandon me. She died. I'm an atheist and I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe that once someone is gone, they are gone. I've told her this and she just can't seem to not give me some religious rhetoric in response about souls and heaven and other things I don't believe in. I mean, you can believe whatever you want and I'm happy for you if you can find comfort in that. I get nothing out of that and when I got annoyed today during therapy, I was annoyed. Not because I didn't want to face my feelings concerning her death but because I felt like she was dismissing my beliefs and not meeting me at my level. It's hard enough to lose someone you love without your therapist insist that I need to be more "open minded" and "accepting" of the possibility of an afterlife. It is possible. It just seems highly unlikely to me and using any sort of religion to comfort me is like trying to use Zeus to comfort someone.

I love her to death but this one thing drives me insane. Luckily, I do have LCM who is also an atheist or an atheistic Buddhist or something to talk to about this stuff because talking to school T about it quite frankly sucks.

I just wanted to rant. Has anyone else had a problem with differing religious beliefs?

[sweepy62]

I for one believe imo, unless you seek christian or religion therapists, that religion, should have no place in your therapy, unless you and your t come to an agreement and are comfortable with it. T should not push thier views onto the client.

I would be very annoyed and would let her know , if it were my t, in your case, you need to do whats in your best interest.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by sweepy62

I for one believe imo, unless you seek christian or religion therapists, that religion, should have no place in your therapy, unless you and your t come to an agreement and are comfortable with it. T should not push thier views onto the client.

I would be very annoyed and would let her know , if it were my t, in your case, you need to do whats in your best interest.

I tried. Her response was "oh you are just too quick to want to say that people who leave are gone for good". Yes. I believe the brain dies at death and therefore so does consciousness. I believe she is gone for good. "Well okay but I don't believe that" Congrats...? How is that supposed to help me...? And then I aggressively changed the subject because I don't want to deal with that.

[sweepy62]

Good for you, your oppinion should be respected. Logically and medically they are gone, but for people who believe other wise they aer not, and its fine. Im not an athiest, but I respect your choice to be an athiest.

[unaluna]

Well, my t's mother died when he was six years old, but she's been "present" for various reasons since i started seeing him. One, just because he was willing to disclose publicly that her passing was the reason he became a t. I dont even know her, but she still has meaning for my t, and for my therapy. Its like history, whats in the timeline of your life - its not a matter of believing in an afterlife, imo.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by hankster

Well, my t's mother died when he was six years old, but she's been "present" for various reasons since i started seeing him. One, just because he was willing to disclose publicly that her passing was the reason he became a t. I dont even know her, but she still has meaning for my t, and for my therapy. Its like history, whats in the timeline of your life - its not a matter of believing in an afterlife, imo.

Yeah but that's different from saying that she's still out there somewhere. Like not just in my memories or an important figure in my life who affected how I grew up. Like literally still out there.

[Auntie2014]

I personally feel that a T's religion is an area that I have a right to establish my boundaries with a T about. I am up front in the first contact to make it clear what my boundaries are on the subject. If a T chooses to not respect my boundaries then I choose a different T.

[feralkittymom]

While it may be true that you overfocus on the leaving part of the equation, and that may be something to address psychologically, to jump from that to a literal afterlife is a leap of faith, not of therapy.

Your T is young and inexperienced and I would hope that her supervision is addressing this sort of boundary crossing.

Have you looked at any of the newer bereavement research? The widely accepted Kubler-Ross 5 stages approach provided a neat and tidy package, easily disseminated. But newer research shows grief is far more individual and far less linear than such a model suggests. Also, KR's study population was people dying, not others responding to death. So a lot of inconsistency and fuzzy applications have derived from and been ascribed to her work.

Newer research which has studied what those grieving actually experience, has found that more often people consciously keep ties with the dead. Not in a denial of death sort of way, but a conscious choosing to remember those lost as they lived: a maintained, internal, heart and mind and memory emotional "living" link. This isn't about faith, but about psychology. It doesn't prevent feelings of loss because the the lack of a tangible presence is always felt; but it does sustain an internal connection, and that can have many positive benefits. This is the choice my T, who has never been a strongly religious person, has made, and witnessing it, it seems very functional to me. A lot of strength and comfort, as well as a very deeply meaningful perception seems to come from this. I feel like I'm learning a lot that I hope I can embrace for myself after his death.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

While it may be true that you overfocus on the leaving part of the equation, and that may be something to address psychologically, to jump from that to a literal afterlife is a leap of faith, not of therapy.

Your T is young and inexperienced and I would hope that her supervision is addressing this sort of boundary crossing.

Have you looked at any of the newer bereavement research? The widely accepted Kubler-Ross 5 stages approach provided a neat and tidy package, easily disseminated. But newer research shows grief is far more individual and far less linear than such a model suggests. Also, KR's study population was people dying, not others responding to death. So a lot of inconsistency and fuzzy applications have derived from and been ascribed to her work.

Newer research which has studied what those grieving actually experience, has found that more often people consciously keep ties with the dead. Not in a denial of death sort of way, but a conscious choosing to remember those lost as they lived: a maintained, internal, heart and mind and memory emotional "living" link. This isn't about faith, but about psychology. It doesn't prevent feelings of loss because the the lack of a tangible presence is always felt; but it does sustain an internal connection, and that can have many positive benefits. This is the choice my T, who has never been a strongly religious person, has made, and witnessing it, it seems very functional to me. A lot of strength and comfort, as well as a very deeply meaningful perception seems to come from this. I feel like I'm learning a lot that I hope I can embrace for myself after his death.

Thinking about you and your T makes me really happy that LCM just turned 36 this past Saturday. I can't handle the thought of her dying. I think you are so strong to be facing that.

Yes that is fine. A living memory is okay. I would have no problem if she said something like her memory and influence lives on within me. The problem I had was when I said I wished I had the 30 mins back to spend with her
T: "how do you think she feels about that half hour"
Me: "idk probably not a lot considering that she is dead"
T: "you have a tendency to see people as all here or all gone. How do you think she feels about you being so dismissive to her right now"
Me: "... nothing she's dead. She has no consciousness anymore"
T: "well I don't believe that. I believe she is watching you right now"
Me: "literally stop. She's not watching me partially because she is dead and I don't believe that is possible"
T: "well that's fine but..."

No no no. Listen to me. I don't believe that. Stop trying to convince me because you can't. Also why the **** would she be watching me? Wouldn't she have something more interesting to do than watch me laying in bed all day and crying in a pillow at night? Like idk maybe watching her real daughter? Staring down at me. I hope not. If I'm wrong and there is an afterlife, I sure as hell hope she isn't spending eternity, looking down on us and obsessing over the living. What an awful eternity to live. Or die. Idk.

[feralkittymom]

I find the notion of looking down on you creepy, too.

I wish she'd focused on you and not who's dead. Why couldn't she have explored with you what you would want to do with those 30 minutes? Why did she have to make it literal? I would have been very frustrated by that too. It totally changed what could have been a very valuable exercise into a stalemate. Even more, exploring that 30 minutes could have led you to a way to really feel that connection in a way that could be healing. Maybe you could explore that on your own--write about it?

To clarify: my T isn't dying, at least not that either of us knows. He is aging, however, and entering his final years. Of course, I hope he lives to be 100+, but I have to accept that's not likely. But I have witnessed how he lives with his son's death, and his process of looking at his own life at this stage.

[A Red Panda]

With a slight rewording of her own questions, she could have been easily asking appropriate ones..

Instead of "how do you think she feels about that 30mins?" could have SO EASILY been "How do you think she would have felt about that 30mins?"...

I would have been annoyed too. I probably would have been annoyed enough to correct her own questions and THEN answer them myself...

haha. Probably like this:

"how do you think she feels about that 30mins?"
"Well, she's dead, so she doesn't feel anything as she is unaware of it due to being dead. But if it was a question of what I hypothetically think she could have felt, then maybe I would have said that she might have felt XYZ..." lol.

[AmysJourney]

I am a Christian, so this is interesting for me... So of course I don't believe when someone dies they are just gone..

But I understand where you are coming from and I understand your frustration. In the end, it's within your power to tell that T that she is out of line with you. T's should not be missionaries. (Although I know some missionaries who are T's :-) Especially if the client expresses their beliefs and asks not to have religion or faith mixed into T.

Panda is right, it would have been easier and probably much more helpful to just slightly word the question a little differently.

Just a side note... my therapist is a Christian too. She doesn't advertise it or brings it up by herself EVER. But when I told her I was a Christian, she had this huge smile on her face and said: So, it wouldn't be really weird for you if I would tell you that I pray for you a lot? Gosh, I loved her for that! But she would have never discussed her faith with me if I hadn't brought it up. I think that is the right way to go about it.

Originally Posted by growlithing

The problem I had was when I said I wished I had the 30 mins back to spend with her
T: "how do you think she feels about that half hour"
Me: "idk probably not a lot considering that she is dead"
T: "you have a tendency to see people as all here or all gone. How do you think she feels about you being so dismissive to her right now"
Me: "... nothing she's dead. She has no consciousness anymore"
T: "well I don't believe that. I believe she is watching you right now"
Me: "literally stop. She's not watching me partially because she is dead and I don't believe that is possible"
T: "well that's fine but..."

That is inappropriate. Your therapist's personal beliefs are irrelevant. She can believe whatever she likes in her own time, but in your time, it's your thoughts and feelings that are relevant. And I agree that these questions would have been worth exploring if they had not been phrased in those terms.

"You have a tendency to see people as all here or all gone", forsooth. Anybody might think that that's a character failure or a logical fallacy, rather than a belief shared by millions and millions of people. What worries me a little is that if I were you, I'd really hesitate before bringing up any subject that might cause T to react like this. Maybe that won't happen with you though - I hope it won't.

I can discuss things to do with religion with my T, he is well acquainted with the religious tradition I was brought up in, although I assume that he has no personal religious belief. (I'm not saying that I do, just that I was brought up that way. Not saying I don't, either. It's irrelevant here.)

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by growlithing

Yeah but that's different from saying that she's still out there somewhere. Like not just in my memories or an important figure in my life who affected how I grew up. Like literally still out there.

Agreed.....

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by Mastodon

That is inappropriate. Your therapist's personal beliefs are irrelevant. She can believe whatever she likes in her own time, but in your time, it's your thoughts and feelings that are relevant. And I agree that these questions would have been worth exploring if they had not been phrased in those terms.

"You have a tendency to see people as all here or all gone", forsooth. Anybody might think that that's a character failure or a logical fallacy, rather than a belief shared by millions and millions of people. What worries me a little is that if I were you, I'd really hesitate before bringing up any subject that might cause T to react like this. Maybe that won't happen with you though - I hope it won't.

I can discuss things to do with religion with my T, he is well acquainted with the religious tradition I was brought up in, although I assume that he has no personal religious belief. (I'm not saying that I do, just that I was brought up that way. Not saying I don't, either. It's irrelevant here.)

I already knew she was a pain in the butt to talk to about this. Right after she died, she was the only person I had to talk to about this and that was hard. I found out about her death actually on Facebook and I was completely alone to try and process it. She was very unhelpful.

So, I try to not bring up this subject with her. The problem is that if I mention it in passing, she forces us down that route despite me saying "I don't want to talk about this. There are more pressing things to talk about. I'm not going to talk about this."

I just wish she'd listen and back off occasionally.