High IQ and Therapy?

See... that's the odd part.. I'm not sure a high IQ is anything more than a high score on an IQ test, and the ability to think differently..... so differently that people may have a hard time relating...

It's been noted that one may find people with extremely high IQ's employed as janitors.... It's no guarantee of success.

My T wants to test my IQ at some point since it's never been tested...

I know I'm intelligent. I know my intelligence is above average. But I don't really care what a test score says about me.

I love my T and Pdoc because they are both extremely intelligent. I have NEVER met someone who could keep up with my thought process, let alone predict it early enough to redirect it. My T can. She doesn't even have to think about things (you often see people looking up when they're trying to think of something). It just flows naturally for her. It's actually amazing to me.

Anyway, I see intelligence as both a blessing and a curse (and both my T and Pdoc agree especially for people who have experienced trauma). It's a curse because you understand the logistics of trauma. You're aware when it happens. You understand. It's a blessing because you can also logically process the trauma and can understand the path to recovery.

I find it's also a curse because people then have higher expectations. Many people assume that I should be able to cope better with feelings because I can understand the logic. But that isn't always the case. So people either see the logical side of me or the emotional side; not both. But that's why it's great to have intelligent T and Pdoc. They are better able to see you as a whole rather than parts.

I've only had a Pdoc for a few weeks about 15 years ago.... neither I nor my T see any reason for me to go back.

This is funny but I've had the opposite experience. All of my therapists through the years have had an anti-religious inclination but it had been very subtle and more of their opinion than them pushing anything on me. But not my next to last therapist. For instance she'd say, a few times, like "you're above that kind of thinking" or "religion is particularly helpful for people with low IQ." She literally said that. I thought that was bigoted and not appropriate thing to say but I've also read studies online about how religious people have low IQ. I don't understand what those studies are trying to prove but I find studies like that bigoted anyways, it would be like saying Africans have low IQ. It is difficult not to read such statements as judgment.

Therapy is a secular endeavor. Freud was against religion, seeing it as childish and irrational. The only time I've even seen a therapist recommend religion is because studies showing that religious people are more at peace or that they enjoy more social support. In other words, there is no respect for religious thinking (which is usually seen as irrational), it's only IF you get some comfort from it, they recommend it. Might as well recommend joining a bowling group.

It's ridiculous to try and tie IQ claims to religion.. I have a lot of respect for people like Francis Collins, Ken Miller and Hugh Ross (to a lesser degree, he won't accept evolution) to name a few... they're all scientists and Christians..

Thank you so much for your comments on high IQ. I can definitely relate... I should probably be posting this elsewhere but I get overwhelmed with forums sometimes...

I have been in huge conflict with my T lately. She really just doesn't get me, but she tries. I have seen professionals since I was 14 but only one ever got me.

I struggle off meds only because meds sort of dulled my intellect. Now I just feel overwhelmed and alone...

I have been diagnosed, since 14, with several personality disorders, mood disorders, and psychotic disorders. Now the system has given up, though I also gave up on the system. I dont fit the paradigm and I used to make myself fit just to get help... Always backfired.

But there is a lot more to that story in terms of adoptive parents with saviour complexes and addiction... Sometimes I think that being on heroin was easier than being at my full mental ability.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that your comments made a difference to me. I often feel like I cant talk about the challenges of being smart without sounding like a total arrogant douche. And when people call me something like genius... It becomes a weird power game.

AA is very difficult for intelligent people for a bunch of reasons... I would suggest SMART or 16 Step meetings instead. (I am an addict and have been to every type of meeting...)

There should be those available if you are in a city. I find them much more helpful and much more empowerment based. I used to go to them, then I moved to a rural setting and had to get back to AA/NA... Still, I have decided that it is okay for me to disagree with some of their philosophy and still attend for support. Really, I couldn't do it any other way... Some people can buy in, I couldn't.

This is another problem I have in therapy--I get into fruitless intellectual debates!

Most therapists would debate back then tell me I debate too much... Only one was smart enough (and grounded enough) to avoid it...

Being smart makes us naturally good at deflecting, manipulating (often unconsciously), etc.... I find that I want someone who can catch me at it...

Not that that had anything to do with the circle but it reminded me of this issue.

Shakespeare, you may be interested in Jonathan Haidt when he talks about the rationalist delusion. I found it interesting. I am pretty jaded when it comes to science...

Anyone like that wouldn't need therapy... Many intelligent people are in therapy. Many of those defining characteristics (not at all about intelligence) were about resources/coping skills/etc... which has a lot to do with environment and a million other things.

We are talking about IQ because it is an objective measure. Not perfect, but it is a starting place to say--hey, I struggle with this...

Unfortunately, that is very hard to do, in this case... As this conversation clearly shows.

So, they complained that you are too rational? It sounds to me like they were admitting they had no good reasons, but they wanted you to believe them anyway.

Is that really how therapy works?

I don't accept that any debate is fruitless. If someone has a good reason to believe something and wants to convince others, then they should be able to come up with compelling reasons to do so.

The only other alternative I can see is for counselors to say "just take my word for it." (and yes, I've caught them doing just that).

Well being smart kind of interferes with many things in life. Not just therapy. Ha. Life probably would be easier if I was dumber. Nah

This reminds me of my childhood friend who used to laugh at me when I was teaching my daughter something "what is that you doing? Have you not learned that smart women have harder lives?" Lol well she wasn't serious

On a serious note I do not go to therapy to be convinced of anything. I have specific issues to work on and me and my t are on the same page about it. We rarely disagree. She only once suggested I do something I didn't feel was right and she later agreed.

Other than that I wouldn't see a t who wasn't intelligent enough. And I wouldn't waste time in therapy debating and arguing. I have hard time finding time for appointments as it is. I'd be seeing different t if there was a need to debate. I like to debate but therapy is kind of expensive debate

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This.

And, while I would imagine I have a higher IQ than my therapist, given the percentile it's in, she has a way higher therapy IQ than me, and that's the key factor in making it work.

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I agree, high IQ makes for a higher frustration level with many others (and myself) in general, haha, but is rewarding enough in other pursuits. I haven't found that factor to hinder therapy much in particular, I've seen Ts that didn't work well with me but for other reasons. I agree "therapy IQ" or emotional IQ is more relevant to success. As with anything, I just have to be a bit patient at times.

A good therapist should be like a trusted friend, IMHO. Unfortunately, I've had counselors try to convince me that the way they saw the world was better somehow than my impressions.

If they're going to insist that they are correct, then they should be able to argue their case. And you're right, debate can be a waste of time (will either of you really change the others mind?). That's why I left. http://forums.psychcentral.com/group...entalists.html

But, I worry that many people just accept whatever it is a therapist throws at them merely because it's coming from a therapist. The recovered memory movement was very popular among therapists in the 1990's. That didn't make it any more true or any less harmful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by somat This is another problem I have in therapy--I get into fruitless intellectual debates! Most therapists would debate back then tell me I debate too much... Only one was smart enough (and grounded enough) to avoid it... Being smart makes us naturally good at deflecting, manipulating (often unconsciously), etc.... I find that I want someone who can catch me at it... Not that that had anything to do with the circle but it reminded me of this issue.

Very interesting discussion, haven't read all of it, but this really caught my eye. I too have the urge to want to understand things, to get to the root of a problem, to get caught up in debates and discussions. I want to know what the options are, the pros and cons, why someone would suggest this and not the other...

The big question is though: Are you using the debate to avoid the underlying issue/s?
I guess I did for many, many years and probably still do a lot.

As a rationally inclined person the left hemisphere of my brain might be totally overdeveloped. Whereas the emotional, intuitive side is somewhat atrophied. [I know the hemisphere model isn't really 'state of the art' any longer, but this picture helps me visualizing things...]
So I rely really heavily on my rational abilities for problem solving and in my daily life. Which isn't wrong in itself. But my problem is/was that between the rational and emotional parts things weren't really balanced out. My emotions would spiral out of control, and I had no skills to get myself grounded again...

So my T started to question my 99,9% rational approach to life. And yes, sometimes she would even say things like "take my word for it" which has become some sort of standing joke between us - me rolling my eyes, her grinning a somwhat ironic smile, knowing perfectly well that this is *not* what I want to hear.

She'd catch me in the process of instigating a debate just for the sake of it. And she'd question why was doing this.... Which started a totally different process:
Why wouldn't I take her word for it?
- because I don't trust her 100%.
Do I trust anybody 100%?
- no, not really...
Why is that??
- disappointments, fears, bad experiences etc.
Do I believe that she means well, that she wants the best for me?
- initially I wouldn't have said yes, but over the years I've come to realize (in a rational sense) that her intentions are well-meaning, that she's totally on my side. Which doesn't mean that she'll always agree with me ...
So the [rational] realization lead to an emotional epiphany...

So sometimes it might make sense to leave rational debate behind and enter the sphere of intuition and emotion...

To me, the process of therapy is about becoming more balanced. To accept, that emotion is part of our human existence. And if I struggle emotionally I need to learn to deal with my emotions.

The role of my T in all this:

• She challenges me, whenever I start rationalizing too much. Rationalization is one of my coping mechanisms (which can be helpful), but also one of my strongest defense mechanism (which can be destructive at times...)
• She encourages me to explore my emotional side/s.
• She is able to follow my train of thought - which can be very intricate and erratic at times, not linear, and I know that my arguments sometimes are hard to follow...
  so I count myself lucky to have found a T who connects with me on that level but at the same time sees beyond and helps to open up new spaces for me...

My t and I are very similar in many aspects. We grew up in similar cultures ( both immigrated) and have similar experiences. I don't think she is smarter than me or vise versa. We are kind on the same wave length. It helps

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We're getting away from the main topic of this thread, namely that high intelligence in itself might make it more difficult to be in therapy. (see my post number 4,for example) The reasons I've found are that people with high IQ are relatively rare, and see the world very differently, so a therapist might not know how to relate or help a person with high IQ.

But, now we're talking about rationality. What I sense is that there is the belief that one can be too rational. I'm not sure I agree.

Consider the Straw-Vulcan.

Oh most certainly many people accept whatever t says or does as universal truth and t is the best thing on this planet. People don't see t as their equal but more like somebody way above. I see it on this forum. Yes it's often detrimental and harmful to people. Again I see it on here.

I think problems come from people seeing therapists as somehow superior to them and that's where problems come from. I think people have some misconception of therapists like it is on the same level as Nobel price winner in nuclear physics of something

I see my t as my equal and like you said trusted friend who is trained in her field and I find her expertise useful as that's why I am in therapy but I do not blindly follow or think she is above me. Nope


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I haven't read the whole thread, but how are we defining high IQ? I was assuming those who qualify as academically gifted, generally the top 3% of any population. The psychological effects of giftedness are well-established - overwhelming sensory experiences, difficulty making choices because of overanalysis, social issues - so I'd be shocked if most therapists haven't worked with that population. They may well not all be good at it, of course.

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see my post number 4.
The research I've done suggested that anything above 120 can cause problems, but I don't recall the source for this claim.

I personally am talking about overall smartness intelligence above average. Not specific IQ as it is just a number. It isn't even completely accurate. Some of it is complicated by cultural or multi lingual component

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My last therapist was not that smart. A few things she said really jumped out at me and I realized that what she was saying wasn't true. I'll just give you the example thst she said they put a "Diet Coke" label on regular Coke and sell it with the sugar in it. I asked her if she really thought that would get past the FDA and she said yes. Another example is that sometimes my brain "spins off" obsessively and I lose concentration. Because of this, she was convinced that I have some kind of dissociative disorder, pushing DID. Luckily, she isn't able to diagnose people here, it has to be a PhD level psychologist or a pdoc. In anyone else, these commdbts would have made me run but I was inexplicably overattched to this woman.

I'm seeing someone else in outpatient psych now, a PhD level clinical psychologist, and to be honest, I trust her more to help me because I can tell she is very, very smart. In our first appt she brought up the fact that Seroquel is more sedating under doses of 200, and I was completely shocked and impressed that she knew that.

I know I have an I.Q of 138 (my mother had me tested; ), and it has been a blessing and a curse, and didn't keep me from getting a schizoid personality disorder from early abuse. Shakespeare47's two lists, from Pearl Buck and the Australian list describe me to a T. I was tested in one of my hospital admissions, so my therapist knows but we've never discussed it. I'm very careful to keep intellectualizing, and text-book talk out of therapy because I'm working on inner child problems, and just too embarrassing to put those next to each other.
About therapy, it's helped me greatly that I can read the in-depth text books on psychiatry. I'm in deep therapy now, and have a lot of schizoid fragmentation, and want to explore those little child assumptions that trip me up in life.
I have two bookcases full of books I've bought from Amazon to find out how I'll be cured of Transference dependency (all this to see how much pain I will incur in this therapy). I believe the modern Psychodynamic Relationship therapists have it right: those who follow the belief that Transference is important and have a humane approach to dependency.
Otherwise, I long for people in my social life who talk about psychology, or their own psychology, but have never found anyone. If only I could afford to stay at UCF forever, I could be with peers. Otherwise, 0 out there in the community, church, job, etc. I've known about your high I.Q for some time S47, and glad you started this thread.

I've met some extremely intelligent people who are in therapy and so quite well and others who need some kind of help but wouldn't do as well because of their thought process, so I think the issue may go beyond just intelligence.

My IQ isn't super high buy it is above average at 127. Therapy has always been hit or miss with me because I don't click with Ts who are too warm and fuzzy. I'd find them irritating and lacking in common sense. Of course it's true that there are plenty of Ts who aren't above average or higher in intelligence. It might not matter as much with clients who are above average since if their social skills are good. I do think that clients who have much higher than above average intelligence but have less social skills wouldn't do as well. I don't think therapy would do much for people like this inless it's very specific and solution focused or they just want a sounding board. I think their level of thinking would be too complex for therapy and they'd end up frustrated. I also think very bright people may try to learn too much about therapy in scholarly way when it's a discipline that in the end doesn't translate well from theory to real life.