High IQ and Therapy?

You are correct. These IQ numbers say very little and many schools (if any) even use them anymore. Tests that measure strengths and weaknesses are more accurate of overall ability, though still not accounting for external factors that can affect scores. All the things you mentioned as well as behavioral issues, ADHD, depression and other factors all cause scores to vary.

I've had a lot of problems with therapists, but had always thought I was to blame. It wasn't until I found the one I'm seeing now (after more than 20 years of therapy) that she raised the idea of intelligence being the problem; that I process information and identify patterns very quickly. I said that I thought that everyone saw and processed information the same way I do, and she gave a pretty emphatic no to that.

She keeps up with me just fine, and therapy this time around has been incredibly helpful. It's great to look back and see that a lot of my irritation and disconnect with previous therapists had to do with the different ways (and speeds) we think and process. I don't think social skills had anything to do with it at all.

Yup. I deal with this for a living. So I speak from experience. Not just random chat for me. IQ is still a valid measure BUT in combination with other factors.

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[QUOTE=ruh roh;4575106]I've had a lot of problems with therapists, but had always thought I was to blame. It wasn't until I found the one I'm seeing now (after more than 20 years of therapy) that she raised the idea of intelligence being the problem; that I process information and identify patterns very quickly. I said that I thought that everyone saw and processed information the same way I do, and she gave a pretty emphatic no to that.
/QUOTE]

The first one I see had a conversation with me like this - where she said she did not process information in the same way I did. I asked if she was messing with me, but she denied it - and kept claiming her brain did not work like mine does.

[QUOTE=stopdog;4575118]
Just wanted to comment on how everyone's brain works so entirely differently. Yup it sure does. I often have the case of two individuals with similar iq and ability and with the same disability yet their brains function entirely differently. It is fascinating

Oh no not everyone processes information the same way at all.

I remember I didn't realize it when I was in high school as I went to a very small magnet school where everyone was the same. Then I started college and was in
Total shock how people couldn't make logical conclusion about anything or recognize patterns or generate ideas. I was in total culture shock realizing that others don't think that way. My daughter had the same experience. She went to a small IB school. So everyone was the same. Then she started college and was mortified about her classmates. She ended up switching majors because in her major she had to participate in debates/seminars and no one in her group could. I still remember how upset she was she Couldn't have any discussion with anyone.

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I'm lucky current t is very smart. Because I can keep up with him and he keeps up with me. It gets lonely talking to most people.

i never understand what is to be accomplished with these humblebrag type discussions. either you're willing do the work in therapy or you're not. smart people are people who understand when they are working against their own interests, adaptable, curious and able to effectively incorporate new data into their existing model. the fact this type of thread occurs on just about every MI board with reports of powerful intellects in numbers that seems, to put it bluntly, a tad unrealistic, I'm just baffled as to what use this topic can be for anyone who truly wants to change aspects of their life that currently do not work.

I didn't mean that the topic of debate was fruitless but that debating is not what I need from therapy. I am not saying that rationality is a bad thing, just like I wouldn't say that emotion is a bad thing and I still wouldn't argue that a scientist should make claims from an emotional standpoint (rather than rational).

There are types of therapy that rely more on rationality. These do not work for me. I can use my intelligence to dig deeper into the processes in my life, or I can use it to deflect.

I just meant that being intelligent often means that it is harder for therapists to catch us in our deflections, rationalizations, etc. Some of my therapists have had fun debating with me but at the end of the session I had gained nothing in terms of dealing with my issues.

Of course, you first have to ask yourself what it is you want from therapy. Right now you seem kind of defensive... I understand the difficulties with being intelligent.

Some people do find insight and healing through rational discussion. I do not. I can figure out rational claims on my own and find it condescending when they are made to me as advice. However, not all truth is rational. It is the emotional aspect, the relational aspect, which I need to focus on. Maybe you are different.

The first one I see is not particularly intelligent. The second one is a bit more than the first. I don't think most therapists are all that intelligent for the most part nor does their job call for it. I never want advice from one of them of any sort.

I think a high IQ might be a problem cos youjust know you are cleverer than them and have a smart *** answer for everything they suggest.
I have a friend like this who cannot find a therapist they respect because he describes them all as sooo stupid.

But, then, I do think he might be a narcissist!

From my own experience in therapy and from what I've seen in my daughters therapy and even some client's, it isn't intelligence that effects ones success in therapy. I don't think most people even agree on what real intelligence is. Can it be measured in a test? Not really...norms and how far we deviate from those norms can be measured but that's about it. Its more about thought process than intelligence. All people with a high IQ do not think the same way and it's impossible/unfair to accurately assess someone's intelligence level from a one sided 50 minute session. Though many people will disagree, you must be intelligent to have superior social skills. Stupid people might have some social skills, but you need common sense for excellent social skills and to have common sense you must have intelligence.

I am aware that you can have a superior intellect but poor social skills - in fact that may be more common. This is exactly the case in Asperger's syndrome and why so many suffer from depression and anxiety. They are as bright if not brighter than most people yet they think so differently that it's often impossible to relate to others and often don't do well with talk therapy. Their processing style is just different than most other people and they find the concepts around therapy trite and even a bit insulting to their intelligence, or the believe there is more to it underneath the surface and are convinced someone's trying to manipulate or change them. The reality is that therapy is pretty straightforward. Either a client wants to work with a T to make changes or they don't. To identify the need and make a commitment for self improvement is not easy and in my opinion, requires a good amount of intelligence.

Not all truth is rational? I don't get this at all.
Take a look at the references I made to the straw-vulcan a few posts back. If a person thinks they are too rational and that is causing problems? Then they're doing it wrong. Rationality is where it's at (what alternative is there?) And yes, rational people can learn from therapy.

I've just found that T's are all too human. And I do understand that some T's will challenge your assumptions and can be good friends who lend support and that can be a good thing. But, what I have a problem with is that T's have their own point of view (one I've been confronted with is religions are good, and atheism is bad. and another is the idea that problems with religion are not to be discussed) that is subjective, and yet is pushed on their clients. Another was the idea that people can have repressed memories that need to be recovered, and that T's can root out those memories.

A third thing is that I've had them say things like "this is science" in reference to some theory about personalities that this particular T was pushing on me. He didn't even try to be objective about it, he was pushing his favorite theory about personalities on me.

Those topics (religion vs atheism and theories about personality types) are open to debate. They aren't to be decided on the authority of any one T merely because he/she said so. What topics are you thinking of when you talk about debate?

I'd think it's more about someone's ability to think and reflect rather than
IQ being an issue

I have never found therapists to be straightforward nor therapy to be put in a commonsense sort of way when explained by those people. Not in my experience as a client nor in my work as an attorney. I haven't found therapists to excel at social skill but I don't think it necessarily requires all that much intelligence to do.

We've gotten away from the topic of this thread (does high IQ pose a problem for those in therapy?) and have started talking about rationality.

I don't think we have.

Maybe it's the type of therapy I've experienced, but to me it is often always straightforward. Things can be twisted a million ways to manipulate things from a legal standpoint, but in my eyes that's different - there is an agenda involved in those cases.

I'm just talking your typical T / client. It's fairly straightforward in nature from my experience, but then I wouldn't spend time in therapy that wasn't so. Opinions about religion are fine from a discussion standpoint, but the therapist's views on them don't belong in therapy (unless that's the type of therapy you seek). The same goes for trying to uncover memories. Encouraging clients to create memories that may not really exist is definitely manipulation and an insult to one's intelligence. I don't know if they are stupid, but they are not good people in my opinion. As far as social skills, it does have to do with intelligence. Social skills won't get into MIT, but you need them to navigate through life and deal successfully with others. Who cares how smart someone is if they can't get out of their own way to lead a fulfilling life? Relying on high intelligence based on one test score eont get people far. It's the same with therapy. Hiding behind high intelligence isn't going to help you achieve whatever it is you want in therapy.

The specific incident with recovered memories that I had was in 1989, when this concept was very popular.

I don't know that it was an insult to anyone's intelligence, it was just a sincere belief that many T's of that time period shared.

Do you want to go back to the topic? When i was accepted into Mensa (just barely squeaked in!), i asked my t if that was a problem. She said no. You might want to ask this on the mensa website.

I don't know whether this has been discussed before in this thread as I haven't read the whole thread, but have any of you who have a high IQ (particularly a high verbal IQ) been accused of being manipulative when symptoms of your mental illness kicked in? And specifically has it been said to you that you're using your intelligence to be manipulative? I wont'say this is never the case (I have engaged in intellectualistic discussions with professionals and I do tend to argue thei rpoints more than do my less verbally capable fellow patients). However, when my mental health problems or neurodiverse reactions kick in, I'm often told "OH you're os intelligent you're just manipulaitng snce you should be able to handle this". I also get told I need a really intelligent therapist who can outsmart me or I'll outsmart them and not make progress (in the direction the people who say this want me to make progress in).

Where I do find my verbal IQ gets in the way of my progress, is when I know more about my mental health diagnoses than my T does. For example, I used to have a diagnosis of a dissociative disorder and I was constantly telling my therapist the latest research on this controversial diagnosis and its treatment (I'm also on the autistic spectrum and one of my special interests is mental health). It didn't necessarily specifically impair my progress in treatment for this condition, since the T who diagnosed me also really didn't know how to treat DID. However, when I was in a support group for this, my knowing more than the support group leader (who was in the peer role but happened to be a psychologist too) got in the way of my participation. Eventually I was kicked out for allegedly not having real DID and the leader demanded I get a diagnosis at a T she recognized. While there is some truth to this (in that DID is probably not the most correct explanation for my symptoms), my intellectual capacity to outsmart a support gorup leader or therapist or whatever could get in the way of my receiving support or treatment for any condition.

High iq doesnt just sit out there like a bump on a log. What are you using it for - ie in service of what defense? High iq can be just like good looks or any other attribute - i dont have to deal with that particular issue because my (fill in the blank) gets me what i want. Until it doesnt.

I don't put much stock in a therapist saying high IQ is not a problem for them. Rather like asking a butcher if eating meat is a problem.

@Astridetal
I find it hard to believe that reading about one's diagnosis could be an issue. As far as I'm concerned, if someone does know more than the T about an issue, that is the T's issue, not yours.

The problem may be in assuming that one does know more than the T, when in reality, it could very well be that the T does know more.

I've never looked at it from this angle. I've looked at it from the perspective of having issues with therapy, and wondering if it is because I have a high IQ and therefore see the world differently than most.

I can see how this could happen with people who are very intelligent as well as on the autism spectrum. I personally believe it is a combination of factors rather than intelligence alone that usually creates obstacles in treatment. Like hankster said and I've told my very intelligent daughter on the spectrum this- intelligence is a gift much like beauty. Hard work and other factors are what really dictate how far that gift will take you. One may have the ability to out wit either rookie or Ts who are not as smart as you, but is that really useful when you really need help? Self diagnosis using the DSM criteria found online or in the book is something anyone with an interest in psychology can do. By the end of the first year every psych student has diagnosed themselves with a ridiculous amount of disorders. As a side note, the most recent DSM added many new disorders and loosened the guidelines to many others. So it's now a fact that if used without any real discretion, about 30% of the population could identify themselves as substance abusers. Intelligent clinicianS can't only rely on being book smart. They also have to have social intelligence to use clinical experience and a lot of common sense to really be effective. Very Intelligent clients who do their homework no doubt can manipulate or attempt to outsmart their pdocs or Ts. I'm sure there are many that decide what diagnosis they want before they walk in the office for an assessment. These people can have clinicians wrapped around their finger if they prepare well enough - that's a good way to weed out the not so bright, or to be fair, inexperienced, therapists.