Is my therapist hitting boundaries?

If you continue with this T, it will lead to very very bad things.

There ARE T's willing to touch in ETHICAL ways (non sexual).

I don't see it. I mean I see a thread but your post says delete.

I still don't see a boundary violation. Unless there are other details I have not read. I think there is reason for caution. But if you needed to be hugged and he came over and hugged you and try to comfort you, that's not a boundary violation. If you accidentally touched his crotch and he was aroused, that's not a boundary violation. Unless you talking about violating his boundary. If he hugged you and you felt his arousal, again that's not a boundary violation. It would be like me, as a guy, hugging a female therapist and noticing she is aroused (I won't go into details but obviously less noticeable than for guys).

I'm not sure if a male therapist suddenly refused a hug because he was feeling aroused and how that's going to affect the client who feels rejected. Hugging involves two people and so I think usually the client and therapist negotiate how it's done together based on what the client is comfortable with. I have had female friends and usually I go in for a hug but it depends on how close they want to get. Some touch their bodies against mine, some do an "air hug" even. I've actually had to move back from some female friends who were drunk or too touchy for my liking too, because they body contact made me uncomfortable.

So the point I think is important and being overlooked is that arousal is not "voluntary." I think men are in a tougher situation when it comes to hiding their arousal. But a male or female therapist might feel aroused by another attractive male or female client depending on their orientation. It is no different than a therapist feeling rage or hatred or fear towards a client. This is something a therapist will work on, in order to control. Sometimes they even reject clients because they can't control these feelings.

Now having said all this, I think a boundary violation depends primarily on what YOU are comfortable with or what bothers you, and also overt sexual acts. The reason for the latter is that some people are actually comfortable with sexual touching. They might like the therapist too and treat this like a real relationship...which it is not, it's a professional relationship. Or they may feel validated by a kiss on the lips! So that's why the second point. And like I said in my previous post, you need to look for a pattern of sexual gestures or acts or words.

For instance, you can say you prefer a less intense hug or you don't like any body touching. Then see how the therapist reacts. If he respects your wishes, then that's fine. If he still tries to find a way to touch you, then obvious violation and change therapists.

A T playing with your hair? Giving you a massage?
Letting you lay across his lap while he has an erection? Getting an erection and not excusing himself? Asking to see a patient outside of sessions? Friend-like texting?

Wow. If these aren't red flags I don't know what would be.

Not judging you, just furious that your T is a creeper.

This therapist played with her hair, stroked her back and let her lay her head on his stomach low enough so she could accidentally touch his crotch. There is absolutely nothing about this that is ok. The OP can ask for a hug and her T can give her a short, supportive one, that's it.

Regarding the arousal, it's not something you wil feel unless you are very close, which means they were too close- like an embrace or cuddling. I understand arousal is physiological and can't always be helped. However, we are talking about a grown man here, not a 15 year old boy. Aldult men understand how their bodies work and know how to prevent such awkward "accidents" from occurring. If hugging or other touch is arousing to a male T then yes, he should deny an embrace to a client.

I have also seen a few male pdocs (including my current one) and therapist since I started treatment some 30 years ago. Never, ever, was there any interaction like this. So if it happens, there's something much more sinister going on.

The fact that this is happening on your first visit is hard to believe, it's hard to believe because not only is it a clear ethical violation for him to let you put your hand in his crotch and hold you, he's not even taken the time to "groom" you as most predators do... Leading me to believe either you're pulling our leg or this man is highly dangerous and unstable. Perhaps he's already in a lawsuit and going to lose his license? It just seems clearly unethical but even more reckless than any normal therapist abuse I've read about. I'd get out of there before the transference kicks in.

I can understand how a T or a client might become involuntarily aroused while having a conversation about sex/sexuality (perhaps the client is discussing a marital problem). I can also understand how a T or client might have a physical attraction and, therefore, something like the sight of a low-cut blouse might cause involuntarily arousal (that could probably be hidden by crossing one's legs or something). But getting so physically close to a client that a certain "part" is touched and physically stimulated-- no way, not in any ethical therapy-- and certainly not during session 2!

I have hugged & snuggled up to several male friends over the years and not once have I encountered a problem with "feeling" their arousal. One: it was not a romantic/sexual situation-- so why feel aroused? Two: grown men know how to conduct themselves so as not to walk into a situation where something like that is going to happen. That should be especially true of a therapist.

Regarding this part, I was trying to find a thread before I post this but I can't...but I remember somebody was mentioning something similar (therapist stroking their hair and a close hug, almost like a parent comforting a crying child) but don't recall anybody see it as inappropriate sexual contact, but in fact some admired that level of care and concern from the therapist. I think the only difference was that it was a female therapist.

So just to be clear, is stroking the hair of a crying patient always an ethical violation and punishable by law? And how long a hug is allowed? What about touching or rubbing, like if someone is crying and inconsolable and the therapist goes and sits next to them and rubs one of their shoulders while they cry, is that an ethical violation and punishable by law? And is that true of all forms of therapy?

This was OP's second session. This was not an established relationship and I don't think any ethical therapist would act in such a way so soon, and with such disregard to OP's potential issues. (Eg previous abuse). I do think there is a place for therapeutic touch but common sense dictates that this is not it.

Yeah, not to mention in the context of other worrisome signs (the erection, the friend-like texting, not to mention the OP specifically said it felt like "relationship cuddling" not "normal cuddling"...presumably meaning it felt sexual).

There may be an ambiguous zone that some people would consider over the line in terms of touching, and some may consider okay or even a positive. But this is not that. Nothing ambiguous about this.

I feel like a screw up

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way.

Why?

You are not a screw up. You are a vulnerable person like me and many others. If my T acted inappropriately would I know and walk away? Probably not; but I am lucky enough to have an ethical T. Please consider yourself lucky you posted here; trust the objective opinions you have heard and walk away from this abuser before he hurts you badly.

i dont know if you saw my post on your other thread.

but i wanted to say again that i understand that u might feel flattered or feel special because this is happening.

but please believe me this is a grooming technique that predators use to pull in their victims.

just because he is a T doesn't mean that what he is doing is ok , acceptable, or right.

i want to tell u that this will probably only escalate and then become even more harmful than it already is.

i want to warn you that the honeymoon of this relationship will fade away and you will be left with the pain of being exploited and taken advantage of.

do yourself a favor and leave this T immediately.

also please report him to any licensing board in your area. because he most likely has probably done this with other patients and might do it again.

people like your T make me sick.

but this is not your fault. it's not your fault.

YOU did nothing wrong! This is NOT YOUR FAULT!

you reached out here when something didn't feel right...it is completely normal to want to feel nurtured and cared for...

The T is the one completely at fault here....T's are trained to provide support in a healthy way....this guy took advantage of what you were feeling/needing to suit HIS feelings/needs

you can get through this and find a therapist with healthy boundaries

You are not a screwup at all. I'm sorry you feel that way but please know you did nothing wrong at all. Posters are having strong reactions to your situation because what this man did is so inappropriate. That is not your fault.

Context is everything in this situation. Is it inappropriate if the T is a man and client is a woman (and both are straight), mostly yes. Then with embracing closely, texting much of the day outside of session, it is most definitely a boudary violation. If the T were female the hugging and hair stroking might be ok depending, especially if the client is a child of teen. Anything more than that is sketchy and yes probably boundary violations. Most of this is really left up to common sense - ethical Ts know better so it shouldn't be a problem.

Well, I don't have more to comment on unless OP shares something new about the situation or what she decided to do. It is OP's thread after all and I hope she gets the kind of care she needs from someone she feels safe with. Good luck.

I was unaware of OP's history.

Your not a screw up, just a vulnerable person that was taken advantage of. Remember it's not you, it's him. You weren't to know that a person you expect to trust would do something damaging to you. Now you know, you can do something about it.

Sounds kinda creepy...I would be mortified if my therapist tried to cuddle with me and play with my hair. Just the fact that you are questioning boundary issues should put up a red flag. With that said, I have a strong belief that therapists should not hug their patients. I have seen a lot of posts on that but it seems that by the therapist giving in to you and hugging or "cuddling" you, they are taking the easy road. Therapy should be about developing coping skills and correcting self deductive habits, etc. A therapist that hugs their patients is essentially robbing them of the motivation to seek this in the "real world" because the therapy room is "safer" ( I am user this word lightly) It seems this would make you more reliant on them. They should be working with you to determine why you desire hugs from them ( someone, whom, if you think about it, you probably don't know much about. ) so they can help get to the root of the issue.

Call me weird. I've had three or four T's over twenty years and have never hugged or been hugged by any of them. You've got to get your physical nurturing somewhere else. Creepy.

You are not a screw up!!! Oh I would feel bad if my comments made you feel that way!!!

We are all in treatment, in a vulnerable position. No one, absolutely no one, has the right to violate you. Especially a T paid to help.

I don't know that she was abused, but the point is that on the second session the T doesn't know either.
Also, it can't possibly be appropriate for a T to lift a client's leg over his thigh in any context.

I think it's a very slippery road when the determination of an ethical violation is wholly and simply determined by the client and T. In fact, professional association guidelines address many issues quite specifically, and others are considered implicit under an umbrella of ethical decision making. So it isn't simply a matter of whatever the client is ok with is, therefore, ok. The protection of both's interests, and the protection of the therapeutic relationship, demand that the determination not be confined to only the people involved.

Clients are permitted a lot more latitude in this regard than Ts. It is the T's responsibility to be aware of and in compliance with ethical standards of practice. This T is, at best, incompetent, and I suspect far worse.

Oh I misunderstood. And I agree, that was not appropriate.

NOT NORMAL AND NOT OKAY!!

I'm frankly quite horrified! He should have informed you ASAP when you placed your hand on his crotch, instead of letting it remain there while getting aroused by it. A normal hug is okay, but this is crossing the line to the point of no return. Even if you were both straight and of the same gender undergoing "re-parenting", the therapy should not involve this sort of touching. (What parent touches their child like that?)

You're right in saying that it sounds like a romantic hug. I don't think a good T with proper boundaries will rub the back/hair of a client of the opposite sex and allow him/her to lay in his/her lap. My T has never touched me and we are both straight females (she is married with a son and about 20 years older).

The texting about general conversation also sounds iffy! I would never think to chat with my T about pop culture like I would with friends and neither would she entertain me if I tried. If she texts me to check on how I am and I replied negatively, she would ask why and then direct me to discuss this in greater detail the next session.

I want to add that it may feel comforting now but he seems like he has an ulterior motive and is exploiting you for his own needs. If you do not stop this abusive relationship now you'll in for some major therapy trauma later. Just my two cents and good luck with seeking a new T!!

**Please know that this isn't your fault AT ALL. You placed your trust in the hands of someone who's supposed to protect you and act in your best interests but he betrayed this trust. HE is the one who needs to take full responsibility for his unprofessional and unethical behaviour. It's great that you recognised the wrongness of the situation and reached out here for help. We're all behind you and want to support you through this.

Like someone else mentioned, report him to his higher-ups if you can. He's likely to have done this before and will continue doing so at the expense of other victims.