[Jordy]

I had an individual skills session last week and I'm still thinking about it today. The topic was learning to say no and not do anything I don't want to. In theory that seems pretty easy, but this is absolutely impossible to me. I'm so deeply convinced that when asked to do something I have to obey, because if I don't something bad will happen. Either violence will be used to force me to do the task, or someone else will be hurt, but in no case can it not have any consequences.

T tried to make me realize that this is absolute nonsense, that a lot of my thinking is really twisted but it didn't work. In all her examples I could see why she would think her way, but I kept seeing loopholes that validated my vision of things. Like one example was: what if T asked me to befriend an elderly woman and then steal from her.
All I could see was that this was stupid as T wouldn't ask me to do that, and if someone else did I better obey that person to protect myself.

Even with small things I just can't risk my "no" not being respected. Haven't told T this as I didn't remember it during session, but once my friend was saddling my horse to ride him and was using a saddle pad I didn't like (not enough cushioning). My friend thought it would be funny to ignore me and triggered a full fledge crisis with an argument that lasted a couple days because I was convinced that by ignoring my "no" he gave my brother the right to abuse me...

So how can I possibly learn to say no if my thinking is so messed up?

[jelly-bean]

I think it will take a little more time than just one session. You and your T need to continue to work on this issue. It obviously is a big one for you so please be patient and continue working on it.

Have you ever said no to your T? It was a big step for me in about our second session when she asked me something and I said: 'I don't want to say'. Maybe you could discuss with your T practicing it with her, have you ever wanted to say no to her? I haven't told my t what a big step that was for me.

[unaluna]

I think its partly a european thing, seriously. This random woman one time told me that in the not too distant past, like my parents / grandparents time, the example you gave like about stealing from the elderly woman was true. This was how my parents raised me too, to not be "stupid". But really, its stupid to do something wrong just because someone else tells you to. I like to think of it as - like if the guy at mcdonalds gives me too much change, im giving it back - i dont want to go to hell for ten cents. If im going to hell, i want it to be for something i'll really remember!! It makes it easier to say no. Dont be someone else's fool.

[SnakeCharmer]

Many people want to say no to things. It's something they truly would like to do, but they feel awkward, they don't know the right words or how to do it graciously or politely. They need a few skill-building sessions and some practice so they'll know what words to use and how to use them politely.

Your situation is more complex. It's deeper. Probably goes back to some bad things that happened to you when you were young or that you saw happen around you. It's all right to have a deeper, more complex situation than just having to find some polite words. That's your situation and it would probably be good to spill everything to T so she can help you in a more realistic way.

This sound like a deep-seated fear. People can get over such fears, but it takes some extra work and different techniques. If you level with your T, she'll probably be able to think of some way to approach it, but the two of you may have to talk about it for several sessions before the fog clears away.

In a way, being afraid to say no isn't any different than having a fear of flying or driving a car or walking under a ladder. And all of those things can be treated, so this could be a very hopeful situation for you, as long as you get honest with your T.

I wish you the best.

I see what you're saying, Jordy. For you, going along with what you're asked to do is a way to protect yourself, except that it actually does the opposite--it harms you. The trick is to find a No that gives you more safety than being silent and going along with what's asked. It has to be a No to something that's clearly more dangerous than being silent. Even just imagining it will give you practice. The challenge is to think of what would be worse than what your abuser can do so that, in your head, you can imagine saying no to that thing.

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by Brown Owl

Have you ever said no to your T? It was a big step for me in about our second session when she asked me something and I said: 'I don't want to say'. Maybe you could discuss with your T practicing it with her, have you ever wanted to say no to her? I haven't told my t what a big step that was for me.

Only for minor thinks like not wanting a drink... but that was more because I didn't feel worth having one in the first place...

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by hankster

I think its partly a european thing, seriously. This random woman one time told me that in the not too distant past, like my parents / grandparents time, the example you gave like about stealing from the elderly woman was true. This was how my parents raised me too, to not be "stupid". But really, its stupid to do something wrong just because someone else tells you to. I like to think of it as - like if the guy at mcdonalds gives me too much change, im giving it back - i dont want to go to hell for ten cents. If im going to hell, i want it to be for something i'll really remember!! It makes it easier to say no. Dont be someone else's fool.

I see what you mean, and this wasn't probably the best example as during session we realized that I may be able to say no if someone else comes to harm, but I can't if I'm the one being harmed... like I don't have the right to protect myself, but at the same time I feel like I'm protecting myelf by obeying... I know this is really messed up, but I can't help it.

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by SnakeCharmer

Many people want to say no to things. It's something they truly would like to do, but they feel awkward, they don't know the right words or how to do it graciously or politely. They need a few skill-building sessions and some practice so they'll know what words to use and how to use them politely.

Your situation is more complex. It's deeper. Probably goes back to some bad things that happened to you when you were young or that you saw happen around you. It's all right to have a deeper, more complex situation than just having to find some polite words. That's your situation and it would probably be good to spill everything to T so she can help you in a more realistic way.

This sound like a deep-seated fear. People can get over such fears, but it takes some extra work and different techniques. If you level with your T, she'll probably be able to think of some way to approach it, but the two of you may have to talk about it for several sessions before the fog clears away.

In a way, being afraid to say no isn't any different than having a fear of flying or driving a car or walking under a ladder. And all of those things can be treated, so this could be a very hopeful situation for you, as long as you get honest with your T.

I wish you the best.

Now that your saying this I realize that T knows about my CSA, but barely any details. And I think in this context something about my CSA is very important: of course I hated the abuse and didn't want it, but if I appeared willing I could partly choose what my brother did to me and most of the time skip the part that was worst to me. But if I refused he would hit me until I'd do anything and I had no say in what was coming. So I guess I then learned that by agreeing I was protecting myself from the worst...

[SnakeCharmer]

Jordy, when explained in that way, your fear of saying no makes logical and rational sense. You come from experience that taught you there are situations where saying yes means really bad things will happen, but saying no guarantees even worse things will happen.

I'm so sorry you went through such terrible abuse. It's not something that simple skills training and assertiveness will make better. But there are types of therapy that can help you with both the CSA from the past and learning how to say no in the present without anything bad happening to you. The latter could benefit from some sort of short-term guided exposure therapy and the former would, naturally, require much deeper longer-term therapy.

You might even need two different Ts working in consultation with each other because not all Ts are trained in the skills to treat both. Telling your T even that short paragraph in your last post would certainly help her understand that your difficulty saying no stems from you actually making a rational decision to say yes in a terrible irrational situation.

I cannot express in words how much I admire your courage and grit for protecting yourself as best as you could and surviving in a situation of such inhumane cruelty. That took intestinal fortitude.